Raising kids in a condo.
There’s an interesting article in the Financial Post about a recent survey of Condo buyers in Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal Calgary and Halifax. Amongst other things, the TD Canada Trust survey found that an increasing number of buyers are willing to raise a family in a condo:
The proportion who would consider raising a family in a condominium has increased significantly to 30 per cent from 20 per cent a year ago, TD Canada Trust said in releasing the results Wednesday.
However, it noted that 46 per cent also said too many children in a building would cause them not to buy a condo unit in it, while just five per cent said not enough children would be a reason not to buy.
While the vast majority of potential buyers also said living in an environmentally friendly building is an important factor, the results suggest having parking is even more important.
I think it’s been fairly common for people to raise families in the downtown core here for a while – perhaps those other cities are just catching up? Are you raising a family in a condo? What are some of the pros and cons of living with children in a condo?
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March 31st, 2007 at 2:21 pm
Reduce: Let it go. It’s getting weird.
March 31st, 2007 at 11:36 am
Does anyone know how possible it is to knock down wall between condo units? As in, 2 500 sqft units becoming on 1000sqft unit. Seems to me that too many tiny units are being built and once the bubble has popped, and people start looking at these as true “living space” and figuring out what to do with all these tiny units.
March 31st, 2007 at 9:13 am
Diapers+Downtown+Disco
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-d1iwA0Nag
March 31st, 2007 at 5:58 am
“In fact the only Western countries with birthrates above replacement level are Canada, US, Oz, and NZ…”
Not according to StatsCan or the CIA World Factbook.
“The total fertility rate is an estimate of the average number of children that women will have during the years they are aged 15 to 49, based on current age-specific birth rates.”
“The statistics show that the rate in 2004 was unchanged from the 2003 rate of 1.53 children per woman. The record-low fertility rate for Canada was set in 2000, at 1.49 children per woman.”
March 31st, 2007 at 3:28 am
In France, lost of kids grow in condos. The birth rate is very high
Really? Then why do they have all those billboards in France urging people to have more kids.
In fact the only Western countries with birthrates above replacement level are Canada, US, Oz, and NZ, and just maybe that may have something to do with SFH being the norm for families.
At any rate, why isn’t there a third question? “Why not rent a SFH for the same (or lower) monthly cost than buying a condo?”. Because “real estate only goes up” and you have to “buy now or be priced out of everything”?.
March 31st, 2007 at 12:09 am
My wife and I live in Yaletown with our two kids, ages 1 and 2. We moved into a 3 bdrm townhome last year.
The Vancouver homes we can afford come with postage stamp lots and tenants in the basement. We prefer our newer townhome, with its large patio and great location. We don’t want to commute.
The kids regularly enjoy:
nearby parks, beaches
waterparks and outdoor pools
Aquarium
cycling/stroller on the seawall
Aquabus rides
GranvilleIsland
common area swimming pool
community centre activities
Starbucks too!
Cons:
Outdoor play must be supervised. I’m not sure when this becomes a problem for the kids. Maybe around age 6?
Elevators and underground parking are a nag when carrying heavy bags and sleeping children. We couldn’t find a suitable townhome with an attached garage.
Daycares are conveniently located, but daycare spaces are extremely limited.
March 30th, 2007 at 10:38 pm
We have a five year old and an 18 month old downtown, and I love walking everywhere, and not having all the family time lost in commute.
I wouldn’t mind buying condo, if and when the time comes, but it would have to be larger than the apartments I’ve seen – 950 sqft for 3 bedrooms? We’re in too little space right now – waiting for a 3 bedroom to open up in our complex – but we’ll be leaving if something doesn’t open up soon.
March 30th, 2007 at 9:30 pm
bearette, if I may be so bold:
“I don’t know anyone personally who desires to raise kids in condos.”
Who do you know personally that was raised in a condo?
“But it makes me furious that this bubble market is forcing people…”
Are the words ‘furious’ and ‘forcing’ used under poetic licence?
You’ll have to excuse me if I don’t break down at the thought of an employable family not being able to afford a parcel of land in area x. Especially when affordable options are available to them to have a similar parcel in area y, wherever that may be. If you don’t like it, move. This is not communist China.
If you really are furious, I really hope you know how lucky you are. With all the shit that happens around us, all the pain and suffering that exists, if housing prices really make you furious, I suggest you take a walk through the halls of the Children’s hospital.
We have it fucking good. Live it while you got it, and don’t look back.
March 30th, 2007 at 5:28 pm
reducimat: to repost:
“Just want to clarify my distain was for the slippery way the article/poll was phrased,not for people who make this choice work for them.”
If it works for you, great. I’m not here to critique your choices. Not my place. They are your choices. In fact, I was trying to head off just that interpretation with my second post.
But it makes me furious that this bubble market is forcing people who don’t want to raise kids in condos to raise kids in condos (or not have them until they can afford to go elsewhere … possibly missing the fertility boat). (Or commute 4 hours a day two and from Abbotsford …oops that’s too expensive now for the average Van wage earner too.) And then its packaged in these polls as a cool new lifestyle choice … not a frustrating necessity. C’est tout. I find the sleight of hand misleading. I don’t know anyone personally who desires to raise kids in condos. I know some people who are struggling through it and hope one day to afford to move. They feel trapped. Wish the Post polled them.
March 30th, 2007 at 8:50 am
wow. thanks everyone for your thoughts on this. i’m about to marry and we are planning on having children very soon so we’re currently looking for a place to rent that will let us grow a little. we want to make due with only 1 car so being within walking distance to everything is important. we’ve narrowed our search to downtown (where i live/ work now) or newport village in port moody (close to where by finace works, i can take the train). neither are ideal because of space/ cost/ commuting issues but seem the best options.
i really appreciate everyone’s insights & experiences with this… i’ve read a few things here that i wouldn’t have considered and will need to think about further so thanks!
PS: satv your novelty has worn off for me… i skip reading your posts. perhaps its time to move on…
March 30th, 2007 at 7:18 am
Is the question down town/suburbs or SFH versus condo?
I want to comment on SFH/condo.
In France, lost of kids grow in condos. The birth rate is very high. However, condos are designed for families: large living room, 3 to 4 bedrooms. Bedrooms on opposite side of the living. It is frequent to see families renting a condo in expansive Paris and owing an affordable getaway in the country side.
Little kids do not need much space: just walk them to the playground down the building. Vancouver condos feel too small when your kids reach the age of 10. They need SPACE, intimacy, independence. Then living in a Vancouver condo becomes really stressful.
Pro: If you have neighbours with kids, you can help each other (baby sitting, shopping, play dates, exchange clothes) and teenagers can safely visit their friends.
Of all the many families I know, none of them is in a condo by choice. They are all university profs that cannot afford a house for their family, or that are not willing to go for a 40 years mortgage.
On UBC campus, none of the hundreds of units was designed for families: we are not a target. Why? Because none of the planners forecast that families will eventually be forced to live in condos.
March 30th, 2007 at 6:51 am
I used to live in Yaletown but left before having kids because I couldn’t imagine the life.
I do see the benefits, as in reductimat’s list.
But to me it does seem that it would be structured and confining. I can tell my 2 little kids to go outside and play in the backyard while I make dinner. They love it and find a million things to do. But I can’t see telling a 3 and 1 year old to take the elevator down 27 floors and go play in the park across the street. Just doesn’t work. So play has to be indoors or supervised. Not the worst thing in the world, but not my ideal.
As you might guess, I grew up in a rural area, so my biases were set long ago.
But I can’t argue with the idea of spending an extra hour or more a day with the kids vs. in a car.
March 30th, 2007 at 6:27 am
Vineland, three things:
I am someone who has a child over four years old, and I listed my cons.
Secondly, concrete towers (at least the ones we’ve lived in) don’t suffer from the same ill-effects you witnessed.
Finally, yes, there are clusters in the burbs where you are able to walk to a fraction of the things I listed above. However, I am puzzled with your statement that this is how all of Vancouver is set up. We have friends who live throughout Vancouver, and very few have the walkable amenities we have.
Can you tell me what children get in the suburbs that they can’t get in an urban environment?
March 30th, 2007 at 3:16 am
P.S. Folhaseca said: Children have lived in
dense urban areas for a long time in
places like London, NYC, or Tokyo.
Have you checked out the birthrate for Japan? the LOWEST in the world – well below replacement levels. In a generation or two, everyone will be able to live on their own plot of land if this trend continues. Funny that during the eighties (pre-handover) all those apartment raised families in Hong Kong desired a real house in Vancouver (wonder why? concrete sky boxes are ‘it’, who would want something firmly planted on the ground?). New York is cool, but an apartment is what, a million bucks? if your that rich, you can have a place in Martha’s Vineyard too. In London, families don’t actually enjoy the cramped quarters, do they? but London is the only major centre in the whole country. Many people’s training means they will be Londoners forever (or ex-pats), and the burbs of London are astronomically expensive, all the way out to Oxford.
March 30th, 2007 at 2:41 am
I lived in a condo when my first was a baby and houses since that time (oldtimer in Van and a 70s in the burbs). I think the most important thing with babies and young toddlers is to have time with them. I put my kids to bed at 7:30 at that age and would not have wanted only a few short hours a workday with them.
That said, the condo we were in had little to no sound barrier, and not just smells but the people below us would have these parties where the smoke would pour through our fuse box from the condo below (non-smoking building, of course)! We rented, and the strata manager would get all upset if my stroller trekked in mud and leaves and leave me nasty letters about this. (concrete floor, no mat at the elevator base). We were on the fourth floor and the elevator was down a few times, dragging a baby and stroller up four flights with groceries was NOT fun, so chose your building. We had cheap rent though, never found a better deal for rent beyond a basement suite (this was a few years ago).
As for all the benefits people list, I can’t tell if it is downtown or condo living. We didn’t live downtown, but had similar benefits of walking everywhere. We even had those benefits when we moved to a SFH (it is the way all of Vancouver is set up). I also can’t imaging walking with a Preschooler from Science World to Stanley Park, and the sidewalks seem too crowded for the young one to bike.
I would like to ask who has children 4 years or over living downtown and what are the cons. I think 0-2 would be fun. Push the kids in a stroller to the parks, Science world is still fun, once the kids get older they don’t want to go everyday. Great Library and kids attractions, beaches etc. I think that kids could do well for a while, but I wonder if they will always fit well in that environment (in New York, many people have families in the outlying areas and they have cottages to escape to, I don’t think Stanley Park would cut it as a city escape).
I teach in Vancouver and one thing I notice is high school students choose different high schools for different reasons (Lord Byng for Fine Arts, Kits HS for French Immersion), the downtown HS is very small, I am sure that as the kids grow, they will outgrow the benefits of downtown. They may want to do things on the other side of False Creek as they grow older and their friends leave. That and the bonuses to downtown are found all over the GVRD. Ethnic diversity is as predominant in Burnaby, Surrey and East Van. Walking distance to everything, try the Westside of Vancouver, and any suburb has the amenities clustered in various areas. Even in the burbs you can choose a neighbourhood where you can walk to the grocery store, restaurants, parks, etc. (we can’t walk to the Canucks, but we are a three minute bike ride from farms, orchards, as well as walking distance to grocery stores, restaurants, banks and parks, my son’s Preschool is a 10 min. walk – his pace). The whole lower mainland offers people a chance to live in communities where you can walk to everything you need.
Personally, I think how much driving one does for their kids is a choice. I made a decison to put my son in the preschool that is walking distance from our house. I sign the kids up for activites at the community centre we can walk to. If you don’t want to spend your life in a car, then don’t. One doesn’t need a condo to avoid overusing the car.
March 29th, 2007 at 9:38 pm
rebytes: I owe you a beer.
March 29th, 2007 at 9:38 pm
“No one in their right mind could preserve their sanity with a teething baby in a 2-bedroom sh-t-box in the sky.”
bearette, so if I get the gist of your message, one should stuff their teething baby in the basement of their SFH?
I’ll one up you, our first had colic, all the while we lived in our shit-box-in-the-sky, and I still wouldn’t trade anything for it.
How long have you lived in a shit-box-in-the-sky?
@canadidan:
Fantastic post. It all comes down to confirmation bias.
@realestute:
I’m not a psychologist, but I do play one on TV… If living where you are is stressfull, why don’t you high-tail it out of there? I don’t see the busy-ness, the stress or the confines on which you speak, but if I had to guess, I would say it’s more a state of mind.
As for my state: Regardless of where you are, you only got one shot so it’s best you live it while you got it.
March 29th, 2007 at 8:32 pm
satv….go away
March 29th, 2007 at 7:54 pm
bearette said…
PS. VCI when are you going to block SATV? These computer-generated inanities are really starting to grate.
3/29/07 7:10 PM
Hey bearette I was long gone before but blog adminstrator brought me back if you don’t like to read truth I can disappear again but 1 vote not enough I need one more no vote and to cut that I need 2 yes vote.
So anybody wants me to stay
any body wants me to disappear
promise and resignation handy
satv.
March 29th, 2007 at 7:15 pm
Dog
you were never a child nor you had cry you just grown up directly straight away 18 year no body ever heard you cry.
children could be in to reside but you have to find a special place for your self and you must know why is that.hint user name
March 29th, 2007 at 7:09 pm
I think a good environment is one that has few confines. I think downtown condo living is all about confines. Less densified areas ie. suburbs, have far fewer confines and are a less stressful environment. All those parks and amenities that are walking distance for those raising kids downtown is surely a plus. I don’t think it adequately compensates for the negative aspects of young children being raised in a busy downtown environment. Again, just my humble opinion as a parent living in a condo in a busy downtown area.
March 29th, 2007 at 6:27 pm
For a time, as a child, I lived in a townhouse complex. It was significantly better than the SFH suburb we lived in after that.
To this day, I’m left with the impression that the in-between density of townhouses with lots of other families around is probably closest to ideal. Lots of other children to play with, many child-centered activities, and a general family atmosphere. And more space than in an apartment.
March 29th, 2007 at 6:23 pm
I think that your ideal when searching for a place to raise a family is largely dependant on where you were raised. If you had a wonderful childhood where you lived (city, suburbs, farm/rural) then you will likely want that for your kids. Likewise if you had a miserable childhood you will look for a different setting in which to raise your children. Every parent wants to provide the best life for their children and in the end the location matters little.
IMHO loving parents, close friends, and a sense of adventure (whether it is expressed exploring the wilds of the city or the mountains) are what makes for a positive childhood.
What I am trying to say is that likely most of the people who care enough to express an opinion, about where they think it is best to raise their kids, are probably doing a great job regardless of where they are living.
March 29th, 2007 at 6:13 pm
Just want to clarify my distain was for the slippery way the article/poll was phrased, not for people who make this choice work for them.
March 29th, 2007 at 6:10 pm
PS. VCI when are you going to block SATV? These computer-generated inanities are really starting to grate.
March 29th, 2007 at 6:08 pm
Please. Willing? Or forced to be willing because there are no other options an the biological clock is ticking. No one in their right mind could preserve their sanity with a teething baby in a 2-bedroom sh-t-box in the sky.
March 29th, 2007 at 4:52 pm
I plan on having children, and I have no intentions of ever moving out of the city – as much for my future children as for me.
I think growing up in the city is good for kids – they get exposed to a variety of cultures and experiences, and they’re able to be independent earlier (having to drive your kids every time they want to leave the house? bad for both parent and child). Children don’t need 2000+ square feet to live happily and safely.
That said – I would say a large portion of the condos built in Vancouver are not kid friendly at all.
March 29th, 2007 at 4:33 pm
Kids cry, run, play ball and sometimes make their parents angry and frustrated.
I don’t think our condos are built in the way that supports the idea of a family raising kids in one of them. Three storey buildings are constructed entirely from cheapest 2X4 lumber…No sound proffing is done, no dividing “service” walls are provided and nobody cares that when it comes to it you can hear your neighbor pee and snore and smell their dinner on top of it.
Would you really enjoy the sound of a child crying all night from the suite upstairs, while the other neighbor’s kids are bouncing balls in their room and at a the same time the teenager across the hall is listening to hiphop while practicing for Canadian Idol…
It sure sounds lively and progressive, but when I paint this picture I imagine projects in a ghetto – not “executive luxury city homes”… Not for the ridiculus prices they go for.
Isn’t it how poor loser “renters” live their miserable existences???
Looks like the smart and successful “owners” suddenly want to share their fate.
March 29th, 2007 at 3:16 pm
I know a family of 4 that raised the kids in a two bedroom condo. The older, teenage son lived in the secondary bedroom, while their younger daughter lived in the walk-in closet. Overall, I think a condo is a preferable place to raise kids than a suburban basement, or sharing the upstairs of a SFH with your extended families.
I think condo lifestyle is still no match for near suburb(Vancouver, Burnaby) SFHs. The western culture is built on the family dog and the white picketed fence. Given the relatively affordable housing options in other parts of Canada, the “V” in our postal code should stand for Vasectamy.
March 29th, 2007 at 12:36 pm
We are by no means living in a shoebox. We have a decent sized pad with three bedrooms and a den… that said, it’s not 2,000+ sq ft.
Things I like:
- Walk to day care & school
- Walk to grocery store
- Walk to science world
- Walk to a whole whack of ‘play’ parks
- Walk to Stanley Park
- Walk along the sea wall
- Walk to all sorts of parades
- Aqua bus to Granville Island
- Walk to about 10,000 restaurants
- Walk to all sorts of theater/shows
- Walk to the Aquatic Centre
- Walk to a night life when you have the sitters in place
- Walk to Canucks games (I’m the only one in the family that cares about that one…)
- Lots and lots of people of all different shapes, sizes and ethnicities
There’s a common theme.. see if you can find it
As for cons:
- I can imagine in ten years when my teenage kids will need about a thousand square feet of space each in order to keep the peace… but we’ll deal with that when we get there
@realestute: Not only are we coping, but we are thriving. Can you elaborate on your statement, “I don’t think it’s good for small children to grow up this way. The environment lacks the proper type and amount of stimulation.”
March 29th, 2007 at 12:10 pm
As an father to be living and working
downtown I can honestly say at this
point the kids going to live in a condo
for a while at least. Children have lived in
dense urban areas for a long time in
places like London, NYC, or Tokyo.
Last time I was in New York it was baby
land, there were kids and strollers
everyewhere. I think there will be a positive
social and cultural impact if downtown has
more children living even if its just the
apearance of “Luxury granite change tables”.
March 29th, 2007 at 11:35 am
GREAT POST. Discussion on this topic is both super-relavent and long overdue.
In places like Japan and Korea, the vast majority of kids from middle class families grow up in Condos. This is a factor of geography – just not enough of it to roll-out suburbs with single family homes on 6,000 square foot lots. Yaletown style 500 square foot homes with the granite countertops aren’t the flavour of the far east. A 2,000 square foot condo is quite common in most large Japanese and Korean cities. So there must be good data available on the effects of kids growing up in Condos.
Back to Vancouver and the bubble. I don’t think it’s good for small children to grow up this way. The environment lacks the proper type and amount of stimulation. Of course, this is IMHO as a parent of a 2 year old.
We’re selling our penthouse box, moving to the ‘burbs once the areas we are watching like a hawk decide to cough up something decent.
Would really like to hear from others on how they are coping.
March 29th, 2007 at 10:45 am
Owned a house – just recently sold it to move back to downtown. Have a 2 year old another on the way – just could no longer do the commute. Unlike other suburbanites that work in the city both my wife and I work the same core hours. Hence we can’t do the “you drop off the baby and I’ll pick up the baby” deal. So we actually commuted with our child everyday. After 7 months of this we’ve decided abandon the suburban life.
Buying at this time doesn’t make sense so we’ve just signed a lease to rent a 3 bed and 3 bath place in the heart of downtown. I’ll say right now our decision to move was for the sake of the children – the renting vs buying thing was another.
March 29th, 2007 at 9:33 am
rentah, I also wonder the extent to which the number of people who would “consider raising a family in a condo” translates into the number actually making that move. Or in making that move by not moving, as in reductimat’s case.
reductimat, tell us more. What do you find to be the best/worst parts about raising kids in a place like Yaletown?
March 29th, 2007 at 8:48 am
rentah, our family can inadvertently be classified in the number one slot.
Our ‘stopover’ in yaletown started in ’99 and we were certain we’d have moved to the ‘burbs within two years.
Eight years and two kids later, we’re still here.
We’ll revisit after the meltdown, but ideally we’ll buy a house just over the bridge or snap up a 2,000 sq. ft. condo (assuming we stay in Vancouver, of course).
March 29th, 2007 at 8:24 am
KIDS can be 80 year old see the success of Simpson,Batman,Spiderman,Superman,and King Kong.
When we are living outside downtown core kids can go seprate to downtown.
If we already living life the fullest where they gonna go unite for ever unless or otherwise,and utilities ,amenities just on click for life.
Its like buying a dreams for kids good investment.
March 29th, 2007 at 8:12 am
The proportion who would consider raising a family in a condominium has increased significantly to 30 per cent from 20 per cent a year ago
This piece of information can be interpreted in two ways:
1. as an indication of change in attitude (=”yeah, condo life is cool for a family, I think I’ll raise my kids in that environment”)
2. as an indication of a change out of necessity (=”I can’t afford a house or a townhouse, I refuse to commute two hours, we’ll have to make do with a condo”)
In Vancouver I suspect that ’2′ is the major engine.
March 29th, 2007 at 7:19 am
With a modern condo the biggest con is that the kids have to sleep with you and your spouse until they leave for college. And-on the pro side-this means that you’ll only have one child, so that you’ll never outgrow your condo.