Nah, I just like to perforate tinfoil.

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When paper money is long gone gold will still be here. Every ounce of gold ever mined on this planet is still here somewhere. Most houses built a hundred years ago in Vancouver are dust and rust.

Ideally a homeowner would have his HOME paid for and 50% of that value hedged with precious metals.

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“especially if religious systems have collapsed (which they mostly already have) and there are accordingly no moral reasons to be non-violent, because morality has ceased to exist.”

Implying that without religion people are incapable of being moral or non violent. I merely pointed out that religion has been a cornerstone behind more violence in the history of Man than anything else (with the debatable exception of wealth). Atheism, secularism, ‘lack of religion’, has been responsible for (to the best of my knowledge) exactly zero violence.

I take offence when religious people adopt a (if you’ll pardon the pun) ‘holier than thou’ attitude because they don’t understand how someone can actually be moral without the wrath of God looming over their shoulder. To me this demonstrates that the failing is a lack of the ability to relate to people who are different from yourself that is typical of all religions, which in turn is a big factor in the amorality and violence in religious people.

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good point.

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i prefer russell’s popular philosophy to ayer at his best.

i particularly like russell’s essay “on being modern-minded”, but ’nuff said about that.

so how did this start? i think because you decided with your own free will to somehow be “offended” because i said something about small-r religion and you knew some atheists that you think are moral.

my mother liked to complain a lot. i used to get annoyed with her until i understood that it was one of the few remaining pleasures she had in life.

as for you, i wonder if you simply derive pleasure from being “offended” or from “not suffering fools gladly” or from “having a problem with” certain types of people, as you confessed in an earlier post.

oh-kee-do-key. i’ll keep that in mind for the next time!!

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Well by that very same logic (hindsight) the real estate bulls who you deride are equally successful.

As for the rest of the thread, what is going on? Doesn’t Godwin’s Law apply anymore?

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——————

Lets go back before Hitler and address this currency issue that I believe will result in gold going through the roof.

Can this quoted excerpt happen here?

————————–
“”By July 1922, the German Mark fell to 300 marks for $1; in November it was at 9,000 to $1; by January 1923 it was at 49,000 to $1; by July 1923, it was at 1,100,000 to $1. It reached 2! 5 trillion marks to $1 in mid-November 1923, varying from city to city. So the printing presses ran, and once they began to run, they were hard to stop. The price increases began to be dizzying. Menus in cafes could not be revised quickly enough. A student at Freiburg University ordered a cup of coffee at a cafe. The price on the menu was 5,000 Marks. He had two cups. When the bill came, it was for 14,000 Marks. “If you want to save money,” he was told, “and you want two cups of coffee, you should order them both at the same time.”The presses of the Reichsbank could not keep up though they ran through the night. Individual cities and states began to issue their own money. Dr. Havenstein, the president of the Reichsbank, did not get his new suit. A factory worker described payday, which was every day at 11:00 a.m.: “At 11:00 in the morning a siren sounded, and everybody gathered in the factory forecourt, where a five-ton lorry was drawn up loaded brimful with paper money. The chief cashier and his assistants climbed up on top. They read out names and just threw out bundles of notes. As soon as you had caught one you made a dash for the nearest shop and bought just anything that was going.” Teachers, paid at 10:00 a.m., brought their money to the playground, where relatives took the bundles and hurried off with them. Banks closed at 11:00 a.m.; the harried clerks went on strike. “The flight from currency that had begun with the buying of diamonds, gold, country houses, and antiques now extended to minor and almost useless items — bric-a-brac, soap, hairpins. The law-abiding country crumbled into petty thievery. Copper pipes and brass armatures weren’t safe. Gasoline was siphoned from cars. People bought things they didn’t need and used them to barter — a pair of shoes for a shirt, some crockery for coffee. Berlin had a “witches’ Sabbath” atmosphere. Prostitutes of both sexes roamed the streets. Cocaine was the fashionable drug. In the cabarets the newly rich and their foreign friends could dance and spend money. Other reports noted that not all the young people had a bad time. Their parents had taught them to work and save, and that was clearly wrong, so they could spend money, enjoy themselves, and flout the old. The publisher Leopold Ullstein wrote: “People just didn’t understand what was happening. All the economic theory they had been taught didn’t provide for the phenomenon. There was a feeling of utter dependence on anonymous powers — almost as a primitive people believed in magic — that somebody must be in the know, and that this small group of ‘somebodies’ must be a conspiracy.”When the 1,000-billion Mark note came out, few bothered to collect the change when they spent it. By November 1923, with one dollar equal to one trillion Marks, the breakdown was complete. The currency had lost meaning.”

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Wow you really don’t want to go down the philosophy road with me. I’ll go all Ayer on your ass.

Do you want me to offer proof that Religion is inherently immoral? I’d be happy to do so but I normally don’t bother because anyone who actually follows the logic and accepts it already knows the truth, those that don’t will refute it under any circumstances.

asalvari:

Adherence to a moral or ethical code does not require faith or ardor. Therefore #4 is out too.

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truly, hitler epitomized evil. but when someone labels themselves as something, does that make it so? so if a modern-day hitler said “hey man, i’m a devout catholic”, would you really believe him? hey, if a realtor says the RE market’s going up, does that make it so?

since we’re on the topic of hitler and his Religion, let’s talk about dietrich bonhoeffer, effectively a hero of the Christian faith for possibly being the only high profile german theologian who refused to adapt his theology to the nazi vision of things. he was outspoken and his writings are studied even today, by sincere and committed theological students of many denominations.

having opposed hitler since he came to power in the early 1930s, bonhoeffer was finally hanged by the Germans in april 1945, not so long before the allies reach the camp in which he was imprisoned.

have you seen the movie “sophie scholl”? a good movie to see. this was a young woman, raised as a lutheran, and finally executed by guillotine (yes, still in use in 1943) for distributing anti-war leaflets at a university. wikipedia says that “in 2005, a ZDF Television audience survey voted Hans and Sophie the fourth greatest Germans of all time.” (Hans was her brother).

not bad for a young lutheran. did she distribute the pamphlets because she was a lutheran? i doubt it, but her lutheranism shaped her values.

speaking of lutherans, martin luther’s actions were a Christian response to the excesses of the secular popes who claimed to be Christ’s representatives on earth. pretty courageous act to publicly nail 95 criticisms of the Church (and the Pope) to the door of a church.

yin and yang –> you can find it in the Christian religion for certain, and i expect you can find it in other world religions as well. don’t focus on the yin. look for the yang.

how about Sikhism? what horrors have been committed (allegedly) by Sikhs? Air India!

yet the origins of Sikhism, as i understand it, are based on the brotherhood of man and religious tolerance … on my visit to a Sikh temple many years ago, i was told that Sikhs believed they had an obligation to feed strangers and visitors to the temple, and that the garden attached to the temple was integral to that way of thinking. otoh, i may be wrong on this, sometimes memory fails.

when i was in Central African Republic, shortly after the overthrow of the evil Boukassa (the guy who crowned himself emperor and even invited Queen E II to attend!), i met a (white) Sihk couple from Victoria (BC) who had been there for quite some time as practical (skill-teaching) missionaries. what considerable good they must have accomplished, and what risks they must have taken to be there during boukassa’s time. the night over boukassa’s overthrow was frightening indeed.

evil men are evil men. hitler. the secular popes. boukassa. idi amin (outwardly a Muslim, but no heart conversion and thus not a true Muslim).

if evil men proclaim themselves followers of a monotheistic, loving god and take control of an established religion (e.g., hitler, the secular popes), then their “Religion” must be rejected.

but the statement made earlier, that “Religion has never been a barricade to immoral behaviour and more often than not it’s been an enabler” has been a popular view for many, many decades amongst pseudo-intellectuals who don’t know the first thing about religion. it’s old, it’s not original thinking, it’s way older than passé, and nobody should get any “i’m clever” points for bringing it up.

do you have any Doukhabour friends? did you know that these people are important members of B.C.’s cultural heritage? When Doukhabour communes still existed in the Kootenays, Doukhabours were deeply religious and pacifists; they simply wanted to be left alone; indeed they came to Canada for religious freedom. But what did our secular government do? Via dawn raids, the RCMP systematically took the children away from the communes and forced them into government-run schools in camps!. A good example of secular persecution of a religious group. Regrettably, the response to this of a particular subgroup of the Doukhabours was bad — the “Sons of Freedom” bombed power lines in the Kootenays and even planted a bomb in the Odeon Theatre in Trail (a city in BC, trust me). These guys were not practising Doukhabour religion. Indeed, the norm for Doukhabours, repeated in history, was that they would get into trouble with government by refusing military service — they opposed war. Growing up as i did in the days of the Sons of Freedom, it would never have crossed my mind that my high school Doukhabour friend’s religion sanctioned the violence.

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WOW, you really get excited about the religion… good read anyways..

I quickly check the Webster and to my BIG surprise I found the following definition of “religion”

1 a: the state of a religious b (1): the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2): commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance

2: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices

3archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness

4: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

number 4 really surprised me.. and it really fits to the way you use “religion” I hope that you understand that most of the people never use “religion” to refer to belief system (at least I never use)

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“Hitler, another great “Man of peace” was a devout Catholic and strict vegetarian. He hated blood-sports so much, fox hunting was banned as soon as he came into power. Pope Pius XI supported Hitler which is why the Roman Catholic people of Germany voted Hitler into power. With him he brought the peaceful symbol of the Hindus, Sikhs and Freemasons. The Nazi cross.”

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1. Gold is headed to $1050 and then onward to $1650.
2. The US dollar is headed to .7200 and will then continue its downtrend into the .6000s and the .5000s.
3. The cause can be found by a study of the Weimar experience. Drop the words “War Reparations” and replace them with “Credit and default derivative meltdown.”
4. There is no practical solution to the present credit problem and its effects.
5. There are many academic solutions to the credit problem but not one that will not backfire, making it a greater mess than it is.
6. Monetary inflation proceeds price inflation. Price inflation, already wild if measured by the same procedures as in the 70s, is going to get wild on the present camouflage procedures.
7. The swings in the equity markets will burn your hair as the PPT works to prevent it and massive liquidity confronts it with declining earnings providing a huge force of gravity.

This is it. PROTECT YOURSELF. YOU ARE THE BULLDOZER. PAY NO ATTENTION AND YOU WILL BECOME THE PAVEMENT. It will be your fault that your finances become asphalt.

Regards,
Jim”

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see above.

crows … probably are somewhat more evolved due to the fact that they don’t make war cause the other crow don’t believe as they do!

we should learn from the crows, for sure!!!

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wow. you sure have a narrow view of religion, which you write with an upper case “R”. you’ve personified “Religion” and made it the “Enemy”.

i think i’m having some difficulty with “Religion has never been a barricade” and “more often than not.” do you have any sources for your claims of “never” and “more often than not”? do you have a degree in religious history? i thought you were a finance guy of sorts.

shall we split hairs on definitions of religion? keep in mind that the linguistic philosopher wittgenstein turned moral philosophy on its head when he convincingly pointed out the obvious — viz., that words (such as “good”, “evil”) have no meaning outside their use –> “the meaning of a word is its use”. so how would you like to use the word “religion”? don’t appeal to big books of definitions. you discover a narrow definition of religion and i’ll point out a broader definition.

apply common sense. would you be less rankled if i said “belief system” versus “religion”? note that i write religion with a small “r”.

in my view, “humanitarianism”, “utilitarianism”, “greatest happiness principal” and other moral systems leave out a monotheistic god, but — because they are belief systems (“i believe” vs. “i know”) governing/defining morality — they are religions.

if someone claims he doesn’t have a belief system (a religion), he’s either confused or he’s morally bankrupt, in which case he’s part of the problem. and my view is that the fraction of morally bankrupt persons is on the rise; viz., those who don’t really have a fixed set of beliefs to guide their decisions and actions. in the absence of belief systems, we see anarchy. not good when times are tough. better buy property on bowen island, form a defense cooperative with your neighbours, and prepare to defend your turf in oregon survivalist mode when m-r’s apocalypse unfolds.

are your atheistic friends moral? maybe: do they have belief systems?

—–

regarding “Dad hacks up his 14 year old daughter in TO”. what’s your point? the first thing i asked myself is how could you write so dispassionately, incorrectly and casually about a human tragedy of immeasurable proportions? does empathy not exist in your belief system?

do you actually know anything about the tragedy? i understood that she was strangled, while you wrote that she was “hacked up”. do you really care?

what religion did the father embrace? did his actions reflect the teachings of his religion? how do others that practise his religion feel about what he did?

have you travelled in Arab countries? i have. have you visited a mosque? i have. have you had a thoughtful discussion with a Muslim? i have. some of the most moral persons I have met are deeply religious followers of Islam. do you know anything meaningful about Islam? what are the teachings of Islam regarding strangers? regarding hospitality? how do you treat strangers? do you practise hospitality … (no, “entertaining” doesn’t count). can you really reasonably describe all followers of Islam in an uncomplimentary way? it would be wrong to do so, because it would be exceptionally inaccurate.

or is this about Christianity? after all, you mentioned priests. do you think that because you live in a country that has a Christian heritage and know at least one Christian bigot, that therefore you understand Christianity?

i don’t think you understand Christianity any more than you understand Islam.

i know, “so much has been done in the name of Religion, especially Christianity, that …. blah, blah, blah”.

before you paint everyone with the same brush, what about Mother Teresa, and all she did in the name of religion? how about Ghandi? he brought down the british empire and liberated his countrymen from oppression! are you going to tell me he had no religion? come on, he believed that religion and morality and life were inseparable, and that there was no higher religion than the search for and practice of truth and righteousness.

how about that Christian guy named Albert Schweitzer? an accomplished musician who wrote the definitive work on Bach, a medical doctor, theologian, organ builder, etc., etc., etc. …. and a truly religious man who gave it all up to set up a hospital in the middle of nowhere … Lambarena, French Equatorial Africa (now Gabon).

to me, the most interesting thing about Schweitzer is that he held Western Civilization, including the Church, in absolute contempt for the way they treated persons from non-Western cultures. he had as much contempt for Religion as it would seem you do, yet he practised his religion with a fervent ardour. did ya know he got a peace prize for his lifelong dedication to his philosophy of “reverence for life” … importantly for me he believed that Western civilization was in decay because it was gradually abandoning its ethical foundations.

not everyone involved with “religion” is or has been as amoral and hypocritical as Pope Alexander VI and some of his contemporaries, the “secular” popes of the 15th century. if this is what you’re reacting to when you think “Religion”, you’re absolutely on the right track … it means you’ve got a heart and a brain.

as for people who lack religion, Schweitzer was right.

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Actually human primates evolved due to there ability to put the group befor individualism. Morality is generally absent from 100% of all religions. Other animals also have done so, such as crows who probably are somewhat more evolved due to the fact that they don’t make war cause the other crow don’t believe as they do!

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“especially if religious systems have collapsed (which they mostly already have) and there are accordingly no moral reasons to be non-violent, because morality has ceased to exist.”

I take offence at that Religion has never been a barricade to immoral behaviour and more often than not it’s been an enabler. Atheists are some of the most moral people I know because they can decide for themselves what is right and wrong and don’t have to follow what a book or a priest says.

Dad hacks up his 14 year old daughter in TO for not wearing a hijab and I don’t think anyone will argue that he wasn’t religious enough.

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“Have I missed anything?”

A whole lifetime of experience apparently but that’s beside the point.

“By 2010 home prices in Vancouver will be down 50% from their 2007 highs.”

Well we agree on one thing. Otherwise, let’s see. ‘Straw Polls’ are done with in the election cycle and won’t happen again for another 4 years, are you saying he’ll win the straw polls in 4 years or the ones he already did very poorly on a few months ago?

Will RP be assassinated before or after he gets 12mil in 5 days? Either way it doesn’t much matter and it wouldn’t throw the country into chaos as most Americans are completely unaware of the man and he has zero chance of winning anything.

So, no bets, no “I’ll never post here any more if I’m wrong on some of these.”

Alcan must love you!

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The Canadian dollar will hit 1.50 by end 2008

So you are saying that gold will be down in Canadian dollars? Good to know.

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It’s a good start, but not nearly apocalyptic enough. I think you’ve left out the near-collapse of society as we know it.

people who can’t feed their children can get pretty ugly, especially if religious systems have collapsed (which they mostly already have) and there are accordingly no moral reasons to be non-violent, because morality has ceased to exist.

at the present, times are good for many, but not all, and there’s already evidence of social decay. it’s going to get worse before it gets better.

it’s the natural, inevitable and necessary conclusion to the greedfest of the past few years: politicians, flippers, RE agents, builders … let’s make an easy buck and who gives a gnat’s ass about the consequences for our decaying city?

—–

thumbsup, There’s no snow in Calgary. I was golfing in my short sleeved shirt and shorts just last week. It was a balmy 21C. The Chinooks are unusually warm and long this year.

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Stop Shoveling Snow in Calgary, that barlow trail will never come to an end.So pick up your $100 suit case Right Away and get back to Vancouver.

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1 There will be no Olympics in 2010 due to a collapsed financial system worldwide but mostly in the US.

2 There will be an assassination attempt on Ron Paul resulting in chaos in America which will bring about martial law and closed borders as the US sinks further into Nazi style fascism.

3 Another fabricated terror attack will cause Israel to attack Iran and the USA (who quietly and behind the scenes engineered this scheme) will be ‘forced’ to aid Israel who is being wiped off the map by Iran in self defense.

4 The Canadian dollar will hit 1.50 by end 2008 thus ending any investment by Americans in Canada as they completely pull out with loads of profits.

5 By 2010 home prices in Vancouver will be down 50% from their 2007 highs.

6 Ron Paul will raise over 12,000,000.00 in 5 days and top the straw polls

7 Canadian Banks will loan for mortgages only with a 25% down payment and proof of locked in funds of an additional 25% to guarantee payment as the economy tanks here and unemployment soars.

Have I missed anything?

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