Reader comments on ‘15 myths’ story missing.
This weekend the Vancouver Sun ran a story about the top 15 real estate myths and realities which generated a lot of reader feedback. As of last night their website had many comments, the majority of which disagreed with some of the points in that article or the way that it was presented.
Today the comment section looks different. This morning all but two comments had disappeared, with many readers here claiming to have re-submitted comments that have not showed up. I’ve personally submitted a comment that has not yet appeared on their site. Since this morning one additional comment has been posted (congratulations ‘crabman!’).
I’m going to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that this is a temporary technical problem rather than a concerted effort to censor public feedback and appease real estate advertisers. If they are experiencing technical difficulties I’m sure they would want to keep the conversation going, so please feel free to post your comments here while we wait for them to solve the problem and re-post reader comments on their website.
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mk-kids Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 11:22 am
Love to hear an explanation from the Sun on what exactly has happened to those comments.
Giving them the benefit of the doubt here, especially given their track record of spewing RE advertising as “news” is very generous of you Pope.
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Terry Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 11:35 am
Here’s as close as I can remember the comment I submitted about 7:30 this morning in response to kathy’s assertion that the article simply relayed ‘facts’ that were ‘uncontroversial’:
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jadeeast Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 11:45 am
Is it really even worth criticizing that article? It was a weekend puff piece not a piece of in depth analysis. Don’t go to the bakery and expect to buy steak.
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Anonymous Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 11:56 am
Are you kidding? It was a giant front page article that purported to cut through the ‘myths and realities’ in the local real estate market and did nothing of the sort. What sort of article would be ‘worth criticizing’ if not this one?
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jesse Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 12:00 pm
Pope, so diplomatic!
“Is it really even worth criticizing that article?”
It is ABSOLUTELY worth critisizing the censorship and calling it out. I don’t care about the article itself. If they want to run an article and solicit open comments on their website they should take the good comments with the bad. Certainly their editorial and open letter section does this and I think the online comments should be held to the same standard.
As bloggers and commenters we know there are general rules about off topic, insulting and hateful comments but censorship beyond this gets you flamed big time and with good reason.
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Re-diculous Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 12:12 pm
I think I’ll send additional comments directly to the editor. Here’s the Vancouver Sun contact info
http://www.canada.com/vancouve.....actus.html
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moldcity Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 12:13 pm
Hmmm.. I just went to the article and there are currently no comments showing and no way to add a comment anymore, maybe they’re ‘fixing’ the problem?
Here’s the link currently with all comments removed:
http://www.canada.com/vancouve.....amp;k=5982
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read on Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 12:16 pm
fixing – such a wonderfully ambiguous term…
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Holdem Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 12:21 pm
Are the comments gone from other articles? I guess I could just check for myself…
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justchecking Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 12:29 pm
Good thing I printed out the comments yesterday!! I have 12 pages of them – I should scan them and post a link here…
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moldcity Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 12:31 pm
holdem, there’s still comments on the important news stories like this one about mcdonalds new hamburger:
http://www.canada.com/vancouve.....808399132b
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Holdem Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 12:35 pm
lol – those comments might go missing soons as well. Wonder if there was an insert of McDonald’s coupons in yesterday’s paper as well.
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condohype Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 12:36 pm
Well, I give the Sun some credit for leaving the comments open for a few days and allowing so many negative comments to make it through moderation. It’ll be interesting to see if they share any reasons as to why the comments have been removed altogether. It’s possible that as a matter of policy they don’t keep online comments archived with any story after a certain period of time. I don’t know.
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Robin Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 12:40 pm
I don’t see what the scandal is about. It was bad journalism, in a bad paper. There is nothing that remarkable about it.
While I don’t agree with the piece, I think people on this site are working themselves into a huff about a very minor issue. The Sun can print as much crappy journalism as it likes.
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moldcity Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 12:47 pm
condohype, why would they post comments and then delete them after a couple of days? I had to check on your hunch that maybe thats their policy, but I found an article from a month ago that still has comments, so that doesn’t seem to be the case:
http://www.canada.com/vancouve.....b6d8791fd8
Robin, this isn’t so much about crappy articles – its about the appearance of removing comments that present an alternate view to the salespeople quoted in the crappy article, even when those comments are polite and on-topic.
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Rock Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 1:14 pm
Well, I’m not going to give them the benefit of the doubt at all. There is no journalistic integrity in the Vancouver Sun, so why should I put it past them to delete the negative comments?
I’d wager that the largest single source of revenue for them is RE Adverts, and they’re catering to their client.
Not to worry though, I know a senior person who works for the Sun, they’re losing readership by the truckload. And who knows, maybe after the RE market implodes and we never see another condo ad for the next 5 years, maybe the paper will implode too.
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condohype Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
Moldcity, a month-old story about how the Canucks blew the season only gets two comments? I don’t buy it; there’s some kind of editing and deletion process at work — Canucks fans could never be so modest.
What that deletion process is, that’s the question. I think we’ll find out pretty quickly. Something tells me the concerned folks around here have already sent emails asking for clarification.
What makes the “15 Myths” article interesting to me is how representative it is of the real estate coverage in the Sun and most of the local media. In short, it’s simplistic and all too willing to overemphasize the benefits of real estate investment while downplaying the risks. This is not unique — corporate media in general have a very difficult time reporting on risk when in a “hot” market. There are many examples in history. When the dot-com boom was on, the media went about it in the same way.
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jj Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 1:54 pm
The only thing I found suprising about that Sun article was how negative the overwhelming majority of comments were. I thought almost everyone in this town had faith in the fairy tale, but perhaps thats changing.
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Many Franks Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 2:00 pm
Or, if you like, you can still submit comments by hacking the ID. The “post comment” form doesn’t appear to have been disabled:
http://www.canada.com/shareit/.....710f343804
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Dosh Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 2:10 pm
Maybe the comments were removed because they were off topic or offensive. They have every right to police the content of their website.
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Sidelines Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 2:11 pm
Indeed, what’s up with the Sun deleting the comments? What a truly crap paper, eh? It is just me, or has it gotten worse in the last few years? It’s almost identical to the Province in quality, I’d have to say, just more cumbersome to read in close quarters.
And dear God, that article, I just couldn’t believe what I was reading… and the “experts” the article refers to, geez… I cried, I laughed.
One of the most hilarious bits was lower mainlanders being referred to as “incredibly sophisticated” when it comes to RE. If the point of reference for “sophisticated” is sheep, then maybe so. And the expert that delivered that quote? “Jennifer Podmore Russell of the research firm MPC Intelligence.” Google that, if you will, and have a look at that “firms” website. Wow – that’s good for some laughs, too.
Too bad many lower mainlanders may just be too “sophisticated” to get what a joke the article was.
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Digi Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 2:18 pm
Good timing Dosh, were the comments removed because they were offensive or off topic? Judge for yourself, I just posted them here:
http://vancouvercondo.info/for.....2&t=52
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disbelief Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 2:27 pm
The Vancouver Sun and the Province like they are any different are not even worthy of wiping my a$$ with. More about the selling of newsprint worth 5 cents a pound for 10 cents a pound… Nothing more.
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Santas Helper Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
I still have the article open on my screen so I am going to help out with the sun/canwest’s hard drive failure. I will post them one at a time and then post that I am finished so please do not add any comments to this blog until I am finished.
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Santas Helper Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 2:36 pm
PeterSat, Apr 26, 08 at 02:13 PM
Your list missed one myth: Vancouver prices are high because Vancouver is now a “World Class” city. This is marketing non-sense created by the real estate community. Where are the world-class banking, stock exchange, high-tech, and entertainment industries? And how about world-class salaries to go along with the new world-class status? All non-existent.
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Santas Helper Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 2:37 pm
Andrew Sat, Apr 26, 08 at 03:08 PM
On the bright side of things: I am on a mailing list which notifies me of new listings, listing changes..etc in the under 650K in Richmond. For the past several months it has been the usual new listing or two every few days, but today I was delighted to see three very nice price reductions!
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Santas Helper Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
John Sat, Apr 26, 08 at 03:19 PM
Why not have an economist on your panel of experts who doesn’t have a conflict of interest. The Vancouver Sun is contributing to financial ruin of many BC families who have overstreched themselves with unrealisitic mortgage tools (40 year mortgage etc). Over a 100% return on investment in 5 years for every property in Vnacouver – Look at history.
Nikki Sat, Apr 26, 08 at 03:27 PM
This is classic – one of the biggest pieces of real estate propaganda you guys have put together in a long time – real estate blogs are laughing hysterically Asking Cameron Muir his opinion on the real estate market is like asking the tobacco companies if cigarettes cause cancer Good for you guys though -keep the real estate advertising dollars rolling in while you can – journalistic integrity is overrated anyways
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Santas Helper Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 2:40 pm
Happy Renter in North Vancouver Sat, Apr 26, 08 at 03:42 PM
The greater fool theory prevails… I remember stock investors buying technology stocks in 1999 were also “extremely sophisticated”… about this “space”. There will soon be a “greatest fool” who buys at the very top.
Mark Sat, Apr 26, 08 at 03:50 PM
What a bafflingly biased report. I’m shocked that the Vancouver Sun is not forced to print “advertisement” on the top of the page containing this information. Among the more humorous contentious points is that they don’t even answer whether 3 out of the 15 “myths or realities” are either a myth of reality. It is unfortunate that more people don’t know how to read graphs to interpret data. This report is nothing more than a promotional pamphlet for the realty industry. I’m counting the days until the Vancouver Sun runs as its headline “Vancouver Housing Market Crashes, House Prices Fall” Cheers, I’m looking forward to buying your foreclosed property.
BBC Sat, Apr 26, 08 at 05:20 PM
Economies run in cycles, there will and is going to be an adjustment in the Real Estate market. Of course individuals and companies that invest or have a vested interest in real estate are NOT going to say other….duh. Take a look at the MLS….the change is happening as we speak. With regards to Canada, BC and Alberta will feel the effects of the US eco. / Global eco. last and it won’t be as sever as eastern Canada but don’t be fooled……we will feel it. A correction is much need for our economy to reach a balance.
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Santas Helper Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 2:41 pm
foursqure Sat, Apr 26, 08 at 08:01 PM
What a terribly biased piece of reporting. The SUN should be ashamed to print useless reports like this. Where are all the non-biased interviews and opinions? Oh wait, I understand now… I just had to scroll down a bit further to see the giant add for Wall center False Creek. I guess we know who paid for this one.
RJ Sat, Apr 26, 08 at 08:13 PM
Some of these comments are a bit harsh. I do think more articles should be done giving advice to first time home buyers in this crazy market. I got into it just as it started in the condo market. I just about doubled my money in five years. I am not sure how first timers are going to be able to ride the wave.
Re-diculous Sat, Apr 26, 08 at 08:15 PM
Vancouver Sun, you’ve sold any journalistic integrity yo had to the highest bidder, the local real estate industry. You’ve become their mouthpiece to defeat any notion of possible lower prices, because once that notion tkes hold, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy – shame on you!
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Santas Helper Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 2:42 pm
the expat Sat, Apr 26, 08 at 08:37 PM
Wait until a recession hits officially in the US; then buy. Buying now will lead to one thing… negative equity!
Whiners Sat, Apr 26, 08 at 09:27 PM
Every time a real esate related column is published the forum posts are full of people whining about the market. Complaining the city is no good, the prices are inflated, and people are stupid to buy. These armchair quarterbacks will be renting forever and if they don’t like it here move away. Keep on waiting for prices to drop and the sky to fall.
Liberace Sat, Apr 26, 08 at 10:02 PM
Wow. I was unaware that real estate agents/mortgage brokers had such a huge share of stock in the Vancouver Sun Company. Anyhow….keep the nonsensical dribble coming and expect a 30-50% reduction in real estate prices in Greater Vancouver over the next three to five years. Condos will be hardest hit.
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Santas Helper Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 2:43 pm
Kathy Sun, Apr 27, 08 at 12:48 AM
None of these commenters has had any factual information to add, just a lot of hysteria over the general sentiment that the sky is about to fall. Well, the Sun article showed us the basic facts from the the property information records. All else is speculation. Kudos to the Sun for cutting through the vested interests and bringing us the real goods.
John Gee Sun, Apr 27, 08 at 06:56 AM
Fools. Perception is reality. Got it. Line up, buy up, but don’t tell a soul you want to get out until you are.
Oz Sun, Apr 27, 08 at 12:03 PM
You know, I honestly think it’s a good time to take your profits and go rent for a few years while prices shift downwards, but at the same time, I applaud the Sun for actually publishing the comments of all these Chicken Little types who think making money in real estate is somehow evil, and that telling people how makes the Sun a mouthpiece for realtors. Seriously, anyone who didn’t see these high prices coming three years ago, or saw them coming but didn’t move heaven and earth to take advantage of them, is the real fool. I sold everything I owned to raise enough to put down a tiny deposit on a tiny bachelor suite in a crappy part of town – and it only took two years to turn that into a 4BR townhouse in the burbs for no raise in my mortgage. So I’m a fool? Hell no – if prices drop, I’m still well ahead of the game – unlike those ‘noble’ people who didn’t plan ahead, kept renting, and now groan at The Sun for offering them advice on how to move up.
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Santas Helper Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 2:44 pm
DAN Sun, Apr 27, 08 at 12:06 PM
And what if you who commented negatively about the information in the article are wrong? Someone did research which carries more weight than speculation. Are you so angry because you are not in the market?
Jonah Sun, Apr 27, 08 at 12:07 PM
I think this article has real value. I just think maybe the sun needs to consider for the future that using ‘research’ from someone with a vested interest in an up market, might not be the kind of look they’re going for if they want to be perceived as unbiased. for what its worth, I don’t think the article is wrong. I think prices will keep going up. It happened in sydney before the last olympics – and afterwards too. Just don’t overextend yourselves trying to get your piece, is the best advice of all.
Ed Sun, Apr 27, 08 at 12:45 PM
There is better analysis being done for free on the local real estate market by a little known financial planner who happens to agree with many of the “hysterical” commenters here. Lo and behold he has data to back up his arguments too. The Sun would do well to get a clue from an unbias source like him. Google – langley financial planning blog uberpost – to see what I mean.
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Santas Helper Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 2:45 pm
Monbiot Sun, Apr 27, 08 at 02:57 PM
An assessment of the local real estate scene that fails to mention that inventory is about 25% higher than last year and sales are down is sort of like an article about Iraq that fails to mention that there’s a war going on there. Well, not that bad, but it does make you wonder, as the above posts do, what side the Sun’s bread is buttered on. A rising real estate market is good for no one except realtors and people who move away.
BBC Sun, Apr 27, 08 at 08:05 PM
Whiner wrote: Every time a real esate related column is published the forum posts are full of people whining about the market. Complaining the city is no good, the prices are inflated, and people are stupid to buy. These armchair quarterbacks will be renting forever and if they don’t like it here move away. Keep on waiting for prices to drop and the sky to fall. Who is whining? I feel that the general thread of the comments opposing the article are asking for a more unbiased source of information. It is irresponsible of The Sun to publish something that is soooo bias. I am an owner of a 1.5 million dollar property in Vancouver and am concerned about the over valuation. Sure on paper I look like a millionaire but that is only if I sell my ‘pot of gold’…in the meantime I am paying out the *as in property taxes for a over valued piece of property. The economic climate is shifting and there is no unbias information that deals with that very real aspect of Real Estate. The sky isn’t falling but it would be refreshing to get an accurate and unbiased weather forecast for once!!!!!
3 steps… Mon, Apr 28, 08 at 02:50 AM
Step 1 – Fire the moronic author of this article. Step 2 – Fire the editor for allowing such conflict of interest “journalistic” hype to be published week after week. Step 3 – Get it through your thick heads, Real estate agents are NOT unbiased “experts”.
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Santas Helper Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 2:47 pm
condohype Mon, Apr 28, 08 at 03:15 AM
I don’t like to throw around accusations of bias because it begs the question of what would constitute “objective” reporting. It doesn’t make things easier that Vancouver real estate is second only to religion as one of those topics in which all sides claim to know the “real” truth. What frustrates me about the Sun coverage is how unwilling it is to acknowledge the uncertainties in the market and the level of risk involved in buying in. Reading these articles, real estate always comes across as a can’t-lose proposition available to everyone. Yeah, everyone except those unable to spare 80% of their income to own a home. Even the most bullish investor will tell you that there is risk in this market.
Elton Mon, Apr 28, 08 at 04:20 AM
The funniest part of the article has to be this part: “…Generally though, British Columbians, and Lower Mainlanders in particular, are pretty savvy about their property, the experts believe, with so much information out there about real estate, between Real Estate Weekly, the real-estate sections in newspapers, the realtors’ Multiple Listing Service posted online and Home and Garden TV….” Reading the hype in the New Homes section of the Vancouver Sun makes you real estate savvy! Good thing I have a subscription. Everyone has access to the Real Estate Board’s MLS service so that means we are all experts. I feel better now.
History Will Tell Mon, Apr 28, 08 at 05:15 AM
Keep the reference to this piece handy. Something tells me it will be worth some serious chuckles in the next few years. Like the ‘Fence Sitters Will be Sorry piece’ {http://www.voiceofsandiego.org/articles/2008/04/09/toscano/820theywillbesorry040908.txt) from the Voice of San Diego. Do these people not realize this stuff is now ‘on the record’!?
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Santas Helper Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
MIKE Mon, Apr 28, 08 at 06:31 AM
Just want to add my voice to the outcry against this false journalism. Its now obvious who the Vancouver Sun works for. Thanks.
BridgeSeller Mon, Apr 28, 08 at 11:30 AM
It would be hard to imagine a more biased article on RE, seriously. Lazy, irresponsible writing. As for people who think that asking Cameron Muir for his “expert” opinion equals doing research – please, check the source. That’s like asking Bush how the war in Iraq is going – hey, he’s President, he’s just gotta be right! Now, if I was to look at the article as a glass half full, I guess I’d have to say thanks for the laughs… especially the bit about Lower Mainlanders being real estate savvy. That was pure gold!
frank Mon, Apr 28, 08 at 12:06 PM
Your article was an insult to the intelligence of your readers, Truly disgusting.
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Santas Helper Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 2:49 pm
FVREB Mon, Apr 28, 08 at 12:25 PM
Vancouver may still abide by this article, but in the Fraser Valley, the situation is bleak. Compared to just last year, we have a 37% drop in sales, and more than 85% more listings to choose from compared to two years ago while the market was rising. FVREB has chosen to no longer publish the MLS statistical archives prior to September 2007. This will maintain a more normal outlook for those researching the Fraser Valley market going forward into the decline. Source: http://www.fvreb.bc.ca/statistical-archives.php
Rock Mon, Apr 28, 08 at 12:33 PM
I cannot believe the lack of journalistic integrity here. Inventory levels in Vancouver have risen by over 25% to unprecedented levels. Sales are down 5-15% depending on where you look. There is an unprecedented number of buyers who are taking out 40-year mortgages. Prices have already flattened all over the Fraser Valley. Condo projects have stalled and banks are demanding more money down for existing project, all the while starts continue to be absurdly high. Canadian financial institutions have turned off the money pipe. Canada is on the brink of a recession. The world is in a credit crisis and we’ve entered an enormous deleveraging phase. Not to mention rampant inflation. And you wonder why people don’t want rising prices? You think Real Estate will go up the next two years? I’ll bet any money it wont. Perhaps the Sun should consider that, if prices do continue to rise forever, more and more bright young people will leave for more sane ground. The economy here will eventually be crushed (there is nothing here save Real Estate), and the longer this goes on, the worse it will be.
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Santas Helper Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 2:50 pm
NewsSavvy Mon, Apr 28, 08 at 12:37 PM
Regarding: “[Lower Mainlanders] are pretty savvy about their property, the experts believe, with so much information out there about real estate … the real-estate sections in newspapers…” How about during previous cycles? Was The Sun a source for unbiased real estate information before the 1981 crash??? “Price stability, rather than decline, would be expected for most of the housing stock . . . since underlying home ownership demand remains strong due to continued high immigration.” (Frank Clayton, January 18th 1981 in the Sun.) The market crashed by about 50% over the following year. How many people had to walk away from their houses becasue they belived what they’d read in the newspaper?
hughz Mon, Apr 28, 08 at 12:57 PM
Rather than talk to “economists” from BCREA, why didn’t they consult any of the economics or finance profs at SFU and UBC? I wonder how many of them have bought into the BC real estate market recently…
JoJO Mon, Apr 28, 08 at 01:04 PM
Driving to work this morning… up Hudsons Street… I noticed 10 houses for sale between 57th and 47th avenue!! People are stupid if they think these prices are going to last… the market is crashing. Detached houses are moving very slowly!
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Santas Helper Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 2:51 pm
forsquare Mon, Apr 28, 08 at 01:17 PM
Myth 16: Real estate prices are still rising in Greater Vancouver. FALSE! – just wait for April’s MLS stats to come out…. so far average detached prices and median homes prices are down nearly 3% this month. Average price is currently back under $899,000!
JojO Mon, Apr 28, 08 at 01:18 PM
Just something to ponder. Did anyone read that article about the Aquilini groups proposal to build a 23 story commercial tower in Downtown Vancouver?Apparently, the aquilini group had to pull the plug on the idea, as there was no commercial interest in the building… interesting… **Wasn’t there an article in the Vancouver sun a few months ago saying that the commercial vacancy in the downtown core was at an all time low? Now, how can the proposal for a 23 story commercial tower dissolve if we have such low vacancy rates?? The article a few months ago made it seem as if businesses are clammering for new space. Who is telling the truth here? If vacancy rates are so low, shouldn’t we be building more commercial space?
Scott Mon, Apr 28, 08 at 01:19 PM
The story does read more like an advertisement. 1. Buy before Albertans beat you to it. 2. Your home is worth more than assessment. 3. Real estate always goes up. 4. Buy your home now because it is spring. 5. If you are going to sell renovate first. 6. You don’t need a swimming pool to sell. 7. ? This can’t be right!?! 8. All houses appreciate equally. 9. People don’t ‘flip’ condos. 10. Buying a money pit is a good thing. 11. Location doesn’t matter. 12. If you already own buy more. 13. Make sure you use an agent. 14. Don’t worry about the bank. 15. If your not rich you will be!
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Santas Helper Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 2:52 pm
cal Mon, Apr 28, 08 at 01:42 PM
Condohype said: “What frustrates me about the Sun coverage is how unwilling it is to acknowledge the uncertainties in the market ” The uncertainties exist in your mind. Go back to reading your negative blogs. “…and the level of risk involved in buying in. ” No risk, no reward.
Kevin Mon, Apr 28, 08 at 02:17 PM
The Sun forgot to address the important factors that mean the market Is only going to keep up: – The Olympics – Everybody wants to move here – We’re running out lof land – Buy now or be priced out forever – Rich foreign investors – This time it’s different Everybody please ignore the past 30 years of Vancouver real estate history, and the Sun’s/CMHC’s/Realtors well documented abysmal prognostications printed before each previous downturn. My realtor told me that this is a new paradigm and we’ve now reached a permanently high plateau where financial valuation metrics are meaningless. Now if you would please excuse me;I must now head down to my realtor’s office with my 40-year mortgage to cash in on my real estate lottery ticket!
hughz Mon, Apr 28, 08 at 02:25 PM
CAL said: “The uncertainties exist in your mind. Go back to reading your negative blogs. “…and the level of risk involved in buying in. ” No risk, no reward.” No risk = no reward is the kind of truism the RE industry pumps out on a daily basis in Vancouver…the point is that RE at the moment most likely entails more risk than other assets with similar returns.
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Santas Helper Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 2:53 pm
Bewildered Mon, Apr 28, 08 at 02:26 PM
Why didn’t the Vancouver Sun put this graph in: http://www.nvcondos.realpagema.....aPageId=32 Inventory is taking off kike a rocket like never before and sales are falling. This data is straight from the real estate board.Given what is happening in our own market and the U.S., the market is slowing down quickly. At least that is what my realtor is telling me when I ask him why my house has not old yet.
Tom Mon, Apr 28, 08 at 03:34 PM
What cracks me up is at the foot of this article, below the comments is a Google ad titled “BC Foreclosure Listings”. Expect to see a lot more of these in the next couple of years! As for the graphs each spike has a downturn immediately afterwards. We are currently at the top of the spike. The prices won’t go to 10 years ago prices, but they will stop rising so fast and will then adjust to a more sustainable level. Buy now and you risk negative equity, apart from the fact that is a 500 sq ft condo you’ll grow out of within a couple of years really worth $350,000? The other fantastically bad bit in this article was that you should charge rent at a 10th of your property price. With ave condos at around $400,000 does that mean renters should pay $4000 a month!! Way to destroy a city and drive out the people who keep it running.
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Santas Helper Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 2:54 pm
RE-ALIST Mon, Apr 28, 08 at 04:22 PM
I’m in agreement with almost all of the criticism from the RE realists above. There are so many points to make about this article it’d require a two page-spread retort. Here’s a sample: The article states: “12. Buying an additional property to rent out is a solid investment” and judges this to be a “Reality”. It then points out that “The rule of thumb used to be that you would aim to charge a rent that was one per cent of the purchase price ($1,000 a month for a $100,000 condo, for example). ” SO, why does the article not then go on to point out that the current ratio for Vancouver, instead of 100:1 is between 300:1 and 500:1 ? Perhaps because this would lead to people concluding the truth, namely that property prices in Vancouver are more than THREE TIMES what they should be based on historic norms. There is a crash coming, and The Sun can be blamed for keeping its readers woefully uneducated in this regard.
Karl Mon, Apr 28, 08 at 04:33 PM
You cant win if you dont play
monique Mon, Apr 28, 08 at 05:31 PM
Can anyone give me some price figures of a good condo (close to UBC). I live in Europe and have no idea of your market, but I intend to buy or to rent close to UBC, something nice, modern, etc…What are the best zones in VANCOUVER?
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Santas Helper Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
Buy my condo! Tue, Apr 29, 08 at 01:05 AM
I am selling a condo because I am getting transferred. When giving the listing out, my realtor tried to low ball me for a fast sale. I priced it competitively and less than recent sales on a lower floor. To date I have no offers and only excuses from my realtor that the market is slowing, that it is changing, there are more listings and that I need to reduce the price. I’ve paid property taxes, strata fees, mortgage payments and I have to pay a realtors commission so I don’t want to lose money on this purchase. I feel like I live in a different city than what was described in the article because people are not lining up to buy my place. The realtor tells me that it is too expensive for an owner user and investors want presales where they don’t have to pay for the condo for 3 years. Anyone have relatives in Alberta that want a downtown condo?
WatchingtheFarcePlayOut Tue, Apr 29, 08 at 01:12 AM
Monique, don’t buy. Real Estate in Vancouver is seriously overpriced relative to average income, relative to median income, relative to possible return on investment, relative to basic long range satisfactoriness of living conditions. The creative and genuinely innovative types who contribute most to making the city enjoyable to live in are leaving because they can’t afford to live here, having started to feel the pressure of rents inching up (though rents are still way way below what would secure a rational landlord a reasonable return on investment). Those who bought a few years ago are selling with greedy stars in their eyes at the thought of how much $ they might get. The media and government have supported the moguls thus far, but it is all about to come crashing down.
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Santas Helper Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
vancon Tue, Apr 29, 08 at 11:05 AM
Actually Jonah, prices in Utah and Sydney crashed after the olympics. In the Syndey suburbs they are seeing the median house price drop from between $100- to $450 per week since 2004! http://vancouvercondo.info/200.....ydney.html Try doing some research before assuming gains will continue, listening to salespeople is probably not the most objective source of information.
Billy Tue, Apr 29, 08 at 11:09 AM
To the Editors of the Sun: Are you picking up the general tone of the comments here? Your article was so poor, so lacking in balance, analysis or credible information that you should be embarrassed. People read your paper for information. With the miracle of the internets (check it out sometime!) people get their information from a variety of sources. There are a bajillion web sites dealing with real estate, how to value it, how to invest in it, how real estate markets have behaved over time. Web sites about economics, finance, investing etc. etc. Many, many people have become pretty well informed about these issues, and have some pretty well informed views of local real estate. Then they open the paper and get platitudinous pap that doesn’t even scratch the surface of the issue, is actually misleading or provides a platform for developers to move product. My personal opinion is that real estate is hugely overpriced here and long overdue for a sizable correction. I have done a fair bit of analysis and research on this, though I am certainly no Cam Muir, so what to I know, right? It appears many others have come to the same opinion. Where was that view, which now seems pretty common, in your article? What about mentioning the 4 or 5 local real estate blogs? What about mentioning Garth Turner’s book? What about the collapse in the states (12% decline nationally yoy, so far) and most other markets? What about simply sitting down and crunching through some numbers? You treated your readership like a bunch of dummies. No wonder you are getting the comments you are. Shame on you.
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Santas Helper Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 2:58 pm
Fiona Tue, Apr 29, 08 at 11:11 AM
You need to interview the guy at Langley Financial Planning. He calls a spade a spade and has the capacity to carry out a substantiative analysis. I shake my head when I see the “experts” paraded out in this piece. Mind-boggling.
joebubba Tue, Apr 29, 08 at 12:36 PM
Free your mind from this garbage and cancel your Sun subscription, someone with some ethics will fill the void for truthful journalism…
Adrian Tue, Apr 29, 08 at 01:18 PM
To the writers of that piece, were the prices quoted by Landcor inflation adjusted? I couldn’t tell if they were and wouldn’t be surprised if it wasn’t just to keep the hype machine going.
Winston Tue, Apr 29, 08 at 01:55 PM
When I turn down your telemarketers next time they call me asking to sign up for a subscription I will specifically mention this article as part of the reason.
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Santas Helper Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 2:59 pm
BLR Tue, Apr 29, 08 at 06:53 PM
While there are truths in this article, this piece lacks integrity. In fact, most real estate articles in The Sun feel like they are commissioned by a Realtor Near You. What ever happened to journalistic integrity? Like other readers, I also recieve listings for 2 br downtown vancouver condos from 500K-700K, and nearly all listings within the past 3 months have been “price reduced.” Even our vetran realtor (he is not so earger to admit this) has gone from 50 clients (last summer) to 10. It is very obvious to me there is a lot less demand locally and internationall in the Vancouver condo market.
Holding$$$Renting Tue, Apr 29, 08 at 06:53 PM
Don’t listen to the nay sayers, their just jealous that they have missed out on the run up in prices. Don’t worry if you can’t afford it, the banks don’t force you to prove your income anymore, and you can get one of those great new 40 year ammortizations for 103% of the mortgage to cover the closing costs and down payment. Take on as much debt as you can or you might miss out, this time it’s different. I know what you’re saying, that’s crazy, I won’t have any money leftover to enjoy life and I’ll be paying for the house well into my retirement. Don’t worry about it, you can take out a line of credit on your huose, a HELOC. All the banks have got them. That way you can get your granite counters and stainless steel appliances. What are you worried about, it’s not like there’s going to be a downturn, everyone knows that real estate only goes up and those problems in the states are all because of sub prime mortgages, which we don’t have. BUY BUY BUY!
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Santas Helper Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 3:00 pm
slade Tue, Apr 29, 08 at 07:36 PM
I fell for the hype in October of 07. Bought a presale in South Surrey, in less than six months the developer has cut the price, offered free upgrades and still has sluggish sales. My 15% deposit will go down the drain, as a matter of fact my loss is 1/2 way there now. Thankfully I am not a first time buyer, but it still hurts. The Sun and other mainstream papers should be thoroughly ashamed for these biased pro developer articles that may influence more saps like me to a bad decision. They would be better served with articles of the real estate carnage throughout the rest of the world and what we we can expect here shortly, but alas the readers don’t account for half of their revenue, so forget that.Talk about free advertising!
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Santas Helper Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 3:03 pm
OK THAT IS IT, ALL I HAVE ON MY SCREEN
I did see four responses at around noon today that I no longer have on my screen to share with everyone. I also don’t know how many comments were made last night after 7:30. so anyone with print-outs scan and share them.
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Santas Helper Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 3:20 pm
I almost forgot. The other thing that was missing at noon today was the link to the graphs and data in a PDF. The sun has deleted the link but left the file on their server, so if this blog mediator can make a copy on to this blog host then everyone can enjoy the data and wonder what is in it that justified taking it down…
http://www.canada.com/vancouve.....lities.pdf
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Santas Helper Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 3:25 pm
AddBusters has a story on Canwest who owns The Sun, The Provence, The Times Colonist, The National Post, CHTV, Global TV, among others. Does this media concentration have any link to the high prices in Vancouver/Victoria?
The issue is not online yet, But I think we should all go out and buy the issue to show our support to people who are standing up to big media.
http://www.adbusters.org/the_magazine/
this is someones blog about it
http://www.torontolife.com/blo.....s-canwest/
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Santas Helper Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 3:28 pm
Interesting Article in AddBusters this month about canwest owning all the media in Vancouver/Victoria. any link to high housing prices?
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jesse Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 3:37 pm
Dosh: “They have every right to police the content of their website.”
And we have every right to call them out on a shotty piece of journalism. If they want to pick and choose their comments they better be open and transparent about it. The Sun’s online editors are running into a whole new world and it’s comical and sad to see how hamfisted and clumsy they are at handling it.
When you actually read the comments some of them are opinioned without arguments and some are accusing the Sun of bias and corruption. I can see, from the editor’s point of view, why having these stay on the site was questionable, compared to their usual techique of more carefully screening reader comments about the paper copy before posting.
Really they need a better explanation of what it takes to get posted. As long as the rules are clear and followed, Dosh is right: they can do what they want. But what has separated the comments and opinions section of the paper is its ability to be self-critical. If they can’t handle it maybe they should look in the mirror and look a bit harder for some experts that have opposing views. Ultimately if what they choose to post as editorial/opinion is not representative of the comments, they will have problems.
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Bankerman Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 3:39 pm
I think the crash has already started. I chatted with guys in the construction industry building condos downtown, they say things have slowed down in certain segments. I think the market will go illiquid for a few months, big drop in sales, prices remain high/sluggish then boom. My guess is by August, prices will drop fast and hard as the fall market will turn into a panic / rout. Sell now at a slightly lower price then you were expecting if you are lucky enough to find a buyer before you get blindsided this fall. This bubble will burst. Front page Sun feature article is the biggest sell signal ever!
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Anonymous Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 3:45 pm
Thanks, Santas Helper. You’ve saved an interesting piece of history I would have missed otherwise.
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frank Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
.
.
The outrage against the Suns attempt to hide the comments will surpass the reaction to the article itself, and rightly so.
They can only wiggle out of this if we let them.
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-A- Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 4:03 pm
.
.
.
.
And the nominees for the REAL ESTATE PIMP OF THE YEAR AWARD are:
Bill Good
The Vancouver Sun
The Province
Bill Good
Bill Good
Bill Good
Bill Good
Btw Mr. Pope, can we have a poll for second place,
I would like to nominate:
Pastrick
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Anonymous Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 4:04 pm
‘I would like to nominate:”
satv/krrish
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-A- Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 4:07 pm
Annon, I said Pimp, not whore.
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Krrish2 Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 4:08 pm
Santa Helper,
Thanks for your hard work but I think the sun did really very good job by deleting those comments because most of the posters are SOLD OUT OWNERS who like to push the market with un natural force.Thanks to the sun they have saved the public from wasting penalty of time reading all that.why protest home prices while it is necessity?here i got a list of stuff that is up three times in a decade,3t=three times.
GOLD PRICES ARE UP 3t
ENERGY PRICES ARE UP 3t
FUEL PRICES ARE UP 3t
RATES OF PAY FOR LOTS OF PEOPLE ARE UP 3t
GROCERY PRICES ARE UP 3t
HOUSING PRICES ARE UP 3t
why do we generate attacks on housing prices? why other things are left out in the hands of market’s driving forces?so does the housing sector.I think bears are doing very good in other markets while they are trailing in housing field
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punface Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 4:19 pm
Personally, even if there was no potential for bias, I just would not expect much valuable economic analysis from the Vancouver Sun. The people writing there are just local hacks, if they were any good they would be in the national papers.
Both the Globe&Mail and National Post (another Canwest paper) have had some bearish articles/columns.
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mk-kids Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 4:20 pm
-A-
LMAO!
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Anonymous Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 4:35 pm
A,
you are a son of bitch for no reason
mk-kids are you LMAO?
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wizardofozziejurock Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 4:37 pm
The Vancouver Sun is the story on this one – and they don’t like it. This is also be covered on a thread at RealEstateTalks:
http://tinyurl.com/68kyjq
Don’t let them go on this one, keep hammering.
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punface Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 4:41 pm
I haven’t seen a single letter to the editor published on the topic of 15REM (I am a Sun subscriber.) That is unusual – there are normally some responses published to every major story they print.
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ted Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 4:59 pm
I don’t get why they would post the comments initially if they didn’t want them on the site, but I too would like to see some sort of explanation from the Sun. It seems rather obvious to delete comments and not run any letters to the editor on this topic. I’m not sure, but I thought I’d seen comments from Derrick Penner on this site before – are you reading this Derrick? Can you put an end to the conspiracy theories and explain why all those on-topic comments were removed?
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t.hu Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 5:26 pm
Wow, I have never seen so many people with their heads so far up their asses. Everything that comes out of your mouth sounds like a fart.
I’ve seen some of you here bitching for a LONG time about the same shit: THE SKY IS FALLING, THE SKY IS FALLING! Prices, Mortgages and Listings, OH MY!
Still Lame, and obviously Still Renting!! LOL!
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-A- Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 5:39 pm
.
.
.
.
.
The writing is on the wall, and so big government, big labour, and big business are starting to sign up for the next welfare scheme.
But they don’t call it welfare, this is project
BC Place ROOF
Buy the time they all get their cut, the cost to the taxpayer will be 1/2 billion.
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bdk Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 5:40 pm
Good one T.Hu. So you were reading this blog from New York?
I bet a lot of New York Starbucks employees read Vancouver Condo Blogs.
So what is it that you did in New York again?
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Anonymous Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 5:46 pm
Hey bdk, fuck you lameass.
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Anonymous Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 5:48 pm
Obviously renting one year=renting for life
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bdk Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 5:48 pm
I’ll have a non fat latte please T.Hu or Rob. A or whatever clever name you want to call yourself today.
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ted Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 5:50 pm
T. hu, for someone complaining about the civility of other posters a few days ago you’re not setting a great example.
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Burden of Proof Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 5:55 pm
T.Hu is a moron. Insults are the resort of the logically weak.
T.Hu, I can’t wait for your next flash of brilliance. Tell us more about farting. We are in awe of your intellect.
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bank rat Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 5:56 pm
sigh. I guess as the local market deteriorates we’re going to see more stressed out speculators take out their wrath on the blog.
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t.hu Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 6:02 pm
Why should I be civil when everyone else here isn’t? It’s a pile-on, as usual. bdk is a bitter asshole and clearly can’t see beyond his own very narrow point of view. Who the fuck is Rob A? Who cares.
This blog appears to be full of bitter renters who won’t accept anything but doom and gloom predictions about everything. I tried to contribute my own experience after moving here from NYC, but, there’s just no point.
So, I’ll join in the fun: Everything is going to Hell in a Handbasket!! Look out! All of you condo owners are in BIG trouble now!!!
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t.hu Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 6:04 pm
Burden: And you are a FuckWad. How brilliant was that?!
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bdk Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 6:07 pm
So not wanting to buy something at it’s peak of bubbliness makes me a bitter renter?
Good one T.Hu.
Here’s T.Hu / Rob A. M.O.
1.lie and pretend you’re from New York.
2.Get mad like a little kid when called out on it and start swearing.
3.Go home to your Mum and cry that you got in over your head by talking about something you didn’t understand and it hurt your feelings.
I’ll have a muffin with that latte, and I’ll buy your studio at spectrum with the change in six months.
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bdk Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 6:11 pm
“I’ve seen some of you here bitching for a LONG time about the same shit”
“I tried to contribute my own experience after moving here from NYC, but, there’s just no point.”
So what did you do in New York T.Hu?
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read on Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 6:41 pm
Comment by t.hu
I’ve seen some of you here bitching for a LONG time
**************
Can’t you even remember that just yesterday you wrote that you had only just discovered this blog? If you are going to go to the trouble of inventing new trolling personae, at least try to keep track of what they have said. F, must try harder.
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Booya Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 6:44 pm
Keep in mind that the Sun, like all newspapers, is facing decreasing revenue year after year due to new media, aka the internet. They need all the ad revenue they can get, and the last thing they need is to lose a bunch of lucrative RE advertisers. While I lament the loss of journalistic integrity – I can’t say I wouldn’t make the same business decision if I were in their shoes.
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oh please Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 6:45 pm
Take it outside, guys.
If I want that level of intellectual discourse I’ll go hang out with some 13 year olds.
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bank rat Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 6:52 pm
oh please, indeed.
Booya, one good way to increase ad revenue might be to manufacture a ‘censorship’ scandal to drive eyeballs to their website, but I suspect they aren’t competent enough to do that intentionally.
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patriotz Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 7:25 pm
sigh. I guess as the local market deteriorates we’re going to see more stressed out speculators take out their wrath on the blog.
Rejoice. The same kind of postings started appearing on HBB, Mish, and CR a couple of years ago. It’s one of the surest signs of an impending bust.
They’ve gone away now BTW.
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/dev/null Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 7:28 pm
coco – I’m not sure if you read here but I was sorry to see you shut the blog down. I enjoyed the links every morning over coffee. I understand the decision but just wanted to let you know that I appreciated your efforts even though I never commented.
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Anonymous Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 7:32 pm
“I’ve seen some of you here bitching for a LONG time”
T.HU
may be you have read all the blogs archives
Keep it up i will be here to back up your claim
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Anonymous Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 7:45 pm
“Rejoice. The same kind of postings started appearing on HBB, Mish, and CR a couple of years ago. It’s one of the surest signs of an impending bust.
They’ve gone away now BTW”.
but story is different in vancouver as bears are having very difficult time. they have spend four days like puppy whining about the vancouver sun issue oh even this room as well.
slowly-slowly they will disapear actually, Where is FREAKO?where is miss anthatropic crumdgen?Where is had enough? and lots more runaway screaming,wg2c,duck,tulip and blah! blah!!and blah!!!MISS ANTHATROPIC CRUMDGEN WHERE ARE YOU?FREAKO WHERE ARE YOUOOOOOOOOOOOOO??????????????duck,wg2c,helloooooooooooo????????????
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bdk Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 7:52 pm
Why have you stopped using your name Krissh?
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Anonymous Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 7:55 pm
Rentha,
party was next week in 2005,next week in 2006,next week in 2007,next week where is it?where is next week?where is the party? is it next week again?
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misanthropic curmudgeon Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 8:03 pm
you bellowed?
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bdk Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 8:09 pm
The only party Krissh will be invited to is a special olympics/homeless babysitter party
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rentah Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 8:15 pm
Actually, party was never predicted to be ‘next week’ but party was predicted to be inevitable, so guests were invited to hang out until the party started.
I think I hear the band tuning up….
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Canwest Monopoly Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 8:28 pm
What else do you expect from the canwest global?
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-A- Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 8:36 pm
Be afraid, be very afraid
I am not surprised at the nastiness from the bulls; they personify Hobbes description of the uncivilized brutes – to quote Hobbes:
” every man against every man” and make life “solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short”
I was the subject of ridicule and was often the victim of cyber bullies at Rob Chipman’s blog on many occasions.
Under the pretense of debate they are constantly spinning and peddling; and when you take them to task they become unstable and downright dangerous. I would have to say many of them are borderline psychotic.
On a number of occasions I was “invited out for coffee” by one of the dogs. I can’t be sure which one the dogs is the meanest, but the one that looks like an orangutan is quite intimidating.
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Anonymous Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 8:40 pm
So true,
What can you expect of them?
Propaganda? If I want tp, i buy the rolled up stuff.
I guess they forgot to wash the print off and roll it up.
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Its all good Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 9:21 pm
It doesn’t matter.
The Sun’s future has already been determined. It will eventually go under unless someone buys the Sun out and changes the name to the Vancouver Advertiser or The Real Estate Daily.
Their slogan will be “yesterday’s news tomorrow”. They will be delivered free to everyone’s mailbox by Canada Post. But that will eventually stop when Green Gordon C. passes a law saying “no” to junk mail to avoid wasting paper.
It’s all good. The Sun is in its death throes. Some other form of media which we can’t yet imagine will take its place.
It will probably take the form of a blog. CalculatedRisk is an example of the quality of blog that will take its place. People will flock to good blogs led by exceptionally well educated journalists of integrity and skill.
This will happen to most newspapers.
Goodbye Sun. It’s all good.
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dingus Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 9:22 pm
Hey, if you have a concern about the Sun’s conduct through this episode, why not email them?
The email of the editor in chief is:
pgraham@png.canwest.com
Try to be civil — frothing loonies aren’t listened to (know’m’sayin’ krrish, t.hu?)
Perhaps reference the Canadian Association of Journalists Statement of Principles and Ethics Guidelines for Journalism http://www.caj.ca/principles/p.....t-2002.htm
Lofty words, indeed! The disjuncture between the lofty words and the base reality is a bit depressing.
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Anonymous Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 9:23 pm
CoCo,
I hope you read this blog. I greatly appreciate your effort you put on your blog. I spend alot of time reading it everyday. I could only image the effort you put into it. You effort is much appreciated.
There is alway going to be A holes who don’t appreciate it and is gonna be rude. Just remember there is a bunch of fans who follow your blog and greatly appreciates your effort. You could run it for them. Even if your decision is final, I hope you could continue putting links like you use to on this blog. You provide great insite. Thanks.
And your recipes are great too!
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Its all good Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 9:24 pm
Everything is going to Hell in a Handbasket!!
Did you know my mother. She used to tell us that all the time.
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Strataman Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 9:24 pm
“!!!MISS ANTHATROPIC CRUMDGEN WHERE ARE YOU?FREAKO WHERE ARE YOUOOOOOOOOOOOOO??????????????duck,wg2c,helloooooooooooo????????????” Makin me homesic….!!Sounds just like the young Bulls in our herd when my Dad castrated them (in the spring right about now) up in the Chilcotin!
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Its all good Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 9:27 pm
Hey, if you have a concern about the Sun’s conduct through this episode, why not email them?
I think they already know and don’t care.
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wg2c Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 9:46 pm
duck,wg2c,helloooooooooooo????????????
wg2c pretty much left.
he comes back from time to time and posts meaningless comments as various IDs because ‘wg2c’ is an inapproprite ID and he can’t think of anything else that he finds meaningful.
wg2c has learned all he needed to learn about the real estate market, and is pleased to see that everything that was predicted regarding the U.S. (such as on CR’s blog) has unfolded as predicted.
wg2c has an unshakable belief that all in vancouver will unfold as predicted by VHB and this blog, other than the time frame which is presently unknown.
wg2c believes that anyone heavily invested in vancouver real estate will get what they deserve and it won’t be pretty. there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. the wailing has already begun in calgary and the gnashing of teeth is well underway in edmonton. vancouver RE is at a critical point now, kind of like a tightrope walker whose long balance bar has begun to waver excessively. it will be interesting to see how long it will remain on the thin rope high above the center ring in the big tent, before it plunges to the ground and creates a gory mess.
importantly, ‘wg2c’ (future; desire) had his wish come true and can now be called ‘g2c’ (past; accomplished). he likes it here. these latter two sentences are for the long-time bloggers.
cheers.
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dingus Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 9:49 pm
It’s all good..
You’re probably right. I used to be a real newspaper junkie, but dropped my subscriptions several years ago. I found because of the abundance of information on the internet, by the time I read the newspaper a) I was already aware of what news was in it and b) I had explored the issues that interested me to a depth that interested me and which was unavailable in the paper, leading to c) frustration that the reporting seemed stale and shallow.
Of course the shallowness of the reporting in this “15 Myths” incident is the cause of the complete flame-out in the comments. It’s not that hard to become relatively well informed on any particular issue you like, and to see what the press can do with it can be a bit galling. There is now an overwhelming amount of information about the current real estate crisis, and the reporting in the Sun reflected the understanding of a 13 year old that had an afternoon to write a book report. Opinion presented as fact, the appearance of bias in asking those with an interest in real estate what they thought of the future of the real estate market etc. Shallow, hamhanded and condescending.
The second interesting feature to this debacle is of course the deleting of the comments. To me this reflects and inept dabbling in electronic media on the Sun’s part. Probably many of the commenters had interacted on blogs before. There is a pretty strong ethic in the blogosphere that where comments are invited, they do not get deleted unless they are made in repeated bad faith (trolls), descend into insults and cheap shots, or use inappropriate language inordinately. In fact, the Sun had a little warning near its comments box that seemed to reflect this practice. Probably among many of the commenters was this expectation that the same ethic would pertain in the Sun’s comments section. Not so, apparently. Now, perhaps the deletion is sorta standard practice, but in the blogosphere it is very bad form, particularly where the rules of participation (ie we will edit comments based on content, and may delete all of them at our will) are not stated on the site, other than a warning about bad language.
The Sun simply does not understand the medium in which it is attempting to operate. The expectation is that it is participatory, and that many of those that choose to participate will be informed and capable enough to add value. It is to a large part collaboration. However, the Sun cannot shake the unilateral “we tell you what is news” model. Wake up! Your readership — your market — is outgrowing you.
At the end of the day, the Sun left many many people with the impression that they are biased and are not open to criticism or dissenting views. Very bad, as far as journalism goes. Whether this is so, or whether it is simply inept, it does seem that this is one small sad episode in a dying medium. But what does it say that professional journalists (who apparently have a professional code of ethics! Who knew!) act this way, when independent citizens blogging in their free time hold themselves to a higher standard in terms of investigatory diligence, analysis, and openness to dialogue and dissenting views?
Anyway, time to go watch Jill Krop get frownyfaced over car crashes.
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stagnate Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 9:51 pm
why be mad about the sun piece, isn’t it going to lure the last buyers into the market hastening the big crash? and bigger profits down the road for those with patience? maybe you haven’t thought it through. maybe you think the market will just stagnate and you’re bitter. maybe you’re dumber than a bag of hammers.
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Burden of Proof Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 10:04 pm
“Burden: And you are a FuckWad. How brilliant was that?!”
T.hu, But I’d like to learn more about farting. You haven’t said a thing about real estate or economics but you have shown great insight into farting. Maybe you also know about burping.
Please contribute to the discussion by telling us about farting and burping and how they relate to real estate?
How is the ventellation in a 475 square foot condo? If you fart in one will a guest smell it?
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BBY Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 10:15 pm
“This blog appears to be full of bitter renters who won’t accept anything but doom and gloom predictions about everything.”
Our predictions aren’t doom and gloom. At least, not for us. We’re kinda looking forward to what bull would consider doom and gloom. Kinda like a nice Christmas. Then again, not everyone looks forward to Christmas.
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hughz Says:
April 30th, 2008 at 11:11 pm
Stagnate writes: “why be mad about the sun piece, isn’t it going to lure the last buyers into the market hastening the big crash? and bigger profits down the road for those with patience? maybe you haven’t thought it through.”
Sorry, stagnate, but I think some people who frequent this blog are all too aware of what happens to the person left holding the bag. I’m all for making profit (and I try to do so on a daily basis), but I also feel strongly that the current RE environment has preyed upon not only people’s innate greed, but also their lack of knowledge about financial matters. And that for me is a real shame.
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rentah Says:
May 1st, 2008 at 12:25 am
dingus: great post, absolutely spot on – very well said.
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its all good Says:
May 1st, 2008 at 5:58 am
the reporting in the Sun reflected the understanding of a 13 year old that had an afternoon to write a book report.
Sums it up very well!
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read on Says:
May 1st, 2008 at 6:26 am
talking of the sun – in today’s issue, an article on the crappy level of CCanadian incomes…
“The report shows that the median earnings of full-time workers edged up just 0.1 per cent in 25 years to $41,401 in 2005 from $41,348 1980, and actually fell in several provinces, led by an 11.3 per cent plunge in British Columbia. All figures are based on earnings in the year prior to the census and are in inflation-adjusted 2005 dollars.”
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Anonymous Says:
May 1st, 2008 at 6:36 am
Do not blame the poor reporter for that “15 myths”. Do you feel secure enough in your job to piss off your boss? Check these links for what can happen when you don’t write what you’ve been ordered to write!
(The second one did get her job back, probably after some serious boot-licking in atonement.) Please note I didn’t have to go vary far in time or space to find these. I have no respect for any of the MSM, nor much for what passes as reporting these days, but that’s how the game is played and anyone still working there is not going to rock the boat.
http://www.straight.com/articl.....ontroversy
http://www.thetyee.ca/Mediache.....vianSmith/
I should have realized that here is where the real response to the Sun article would happen. Please excuse me posting same in 2 blogs. I haven’t seen anyone defending poor Derek Penners need to feed his family. (And pay his huge mortgage? Can anyone find out how deeply invested in RE he, or Bill Good is?
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Anonymous Says:
May 1st, 2008 at 6:37 am
Sorry, that was alexcanuck
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richard Says:
May 1st, 2008 at 7:14 am
With longer, lower payments, `you just have higher housing prices. Who the heck put this man in charge? Clearly he does not understand vancouver RE only goes UP UP UP.
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exx Says:
May 1st, 2008 at 7:19 am
Incomes dropping in BC despite a booming economy
New census data this morning shows the median income for full time workers in BC is a little over $42,000 a year, which is a drop of over 3% since 2000 and it’s down 11% since 1980 when you take inflation into account.
Could it be that it’s because our booming economy is based on construction? How much are these construction workers making?
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Strataman Says:
May 1st, 2008 at 7:28 am
exx “Could it be that it’s because our booming economy is based on construction? How much are these construction workers making?”
No it is the opposite most construction workers make substantially above the median so they are artificially supporting that figure. The drop would be probably attributed to the large number of low paid service and retail jobs (evidenced by help wanted signs in such establishments), and the reduction in high paid forestry jobs that are fast dissappearing.
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Tony Danza Says:
May 1st, 2008 at 7:51 am
led by an 11.3 per cent plunge in British Columbia
But….but…but I thought incomes went up 3x in the last 10 years for box stackers and baristas! Does that mean that one of our posters is being dishonest?
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Tony Danza Says:
May 1st, 2008 at 7:54 am
GV inventory of 16000 by mid May?
116 X While Vancouver Sun Resolves Disappearing Reader Feedback “Technicial Issues” for it’s “15 real estate myths and realities” Article/Hatchet-Job the Blog Vancouver Condo Info Has Kindly Offered to Keep the Dialog Going « Says:
May 1st, 2008 at 8:01 am
[...] While Vancouver Sun Resolves Disappearing Reader Feedback “Technicial Issues” for it’s “15 real estate myths and realities” Article/Hatchet-Job the Blog Vancouver Condo Info Has Kindly Offered to Keep the Dialog Going Filed under: You, Your Shelter — canuck99 @ 9:01 am Tags: Canada, media censorship, real estate, Vancouver [Vancouver Condo Info] Reader comments on ‘15 myths’ story missing [...]
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macciato Says:
May 1st, 2008 at 8:09 am
“Incomes dropping in BC despite a booming economy”
So, the ‘reality’ is we are making less money .. and as the Sun myths/reality article states, job growth is solid and will contribute to demand, they forgot to mention we are making less money and that over half the new jobs in the last year were in construction (28K/55K, statcan).
This confirms previous information. Great to have the most recent statcan data to show up to 2005. The sun ran a similar article about 2 years ago, saying almost exactly the same things related to real income decline.
Strataman, I think during the time of the census forestry jobs were growing and that industry was booming, go figure and skilled tradepeople get paid more than the median, even labourers are up there, I think you can walk on a site for $15, less than median, but certainly not a bad wage for the skill level, that was probably much less before the boom.
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cashisking Says:
May 1st, 2008 at 8:26 am
check out inventory #’s in Paul Boenisch’s website – go to Blog to get his commentary and your morning bearish grin … and don’t sh!t all over him b/c he’s the only one who puts it in pictures for our simple bull friends!
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cashisking Says:
May 1st, 2008 at 8:28 am
one more thing
check out the inventories for west van, north van, and van west
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Krrish2 Says:
May 1st, 2008 at 8:32 am
NO TONY,
*Gold 3X up but not all people can buy gold.
*Fuel 3X up but not all people drive or own cars.
*Energy3X up but not all people pay the bills just home owners or some tenent as per the contract.
*Grocery 3X up but you don’t have to buy all the items in the store.
*Rates of pay 3X up but not for every single employees in bc.
*Home prices 3X up but not all people own a home.
*********************************
misanthropic curmudgeon,
I am glad that you still around us here- wg2c nice to read you again.
“you bellowed?”
Yes indeed miss curmudgeon still in love and i had miss you so much- btw SONIKA screwd up every thing.WG2C cheer up!
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The Pope Says:
May 1st, 2008 at 8:47 am
Thanks for the comment archive ’santas helper’. Speaking of comment deletion perhaps I should be chopping comments out of here.. I like to see debate, but posts of pure insults are generally dull to read. I tend to err on the side of ‘free speech’, but come on people – trollbait may look tasty, but its often unsatisfying.
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beatstreet Says:
May 1st, 2008 at 8:48 am
From globeinvestor gold this morning:
“BERTRAND MAROTTE
Thursday, May 01, 2008
MONTREAL — The Quebec government has lured New York finance powerhouse Morgan Stanley to Montreal with a generous package of tax credits.
Morgan Stanley says it will invest $200-million to build a technology centre in the city and create 500 jobs. More to come”
Oh well, just 500 high tech jobs not coming to Vancouver. I expect Montreal’s housing price advantage had something to do with it along with Quebec tax payer generosity.
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The Pope Says:
May 1st, 2008 at 8:52 am
I was also saddened to see coco has closed down her news blog. I didn’t see the insulting comments, but if you’re reading this coco, don’t put too much stock in anonymous ranters.
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frank Says:
May 1st, 2008 at 9:01 am
.
.
Don’t let the Sun off the hook just when this is getting interesting.
Tell them how you feel about hiding the comments about the 15 myths:
http://www.canada.com/share/soundoff
Or email the editor direct:
depenner@png.canwest.com
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patriotz Says:
May 1st, 2008 at 9:34 am
The drop would be probably attributed to the large number of low paid service and retail jobs (evidenced by help wanted signs in such establishments), and the reduction in high paid forestry jobs that are fast dissappearing.
Employment in the forest industry was clobbered in the 82 recession and never recovered. The industry used the downtime during the bust to automate, and most of the laid off workers were never rehired. And the few that remain are getting clobbered again.
Mining employment is also down substantially due to automation and shutdowns such as the Tumbler Ridge coal mines and the silver-lead-zinc mine in Kimberley. Employment in secondary resource industry like the smelters in Kitimat and Trail is also down.
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The Pope Says:
May 1st, 2008 at 9:42 am
New post to discuss statscan BC income news story here:
http://vancouvercondo.info/200.....pping.html
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jj Says:
May 1st, 2008 at 10:09 am
Has anybody tried emailing Derrick Penner or the Sun and got a response? I’d love to see answers from them if anyone gets one.
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cambler Says:
May 1st, 2008 at 10:16 am
The 15 myths must have been put up in an effort to keep people buying condos.
Most of points are irrelevant or don’t say enough to form an opinion.
#3 -Real estate prices in Greater Vancouver can’t keep going up; they’re too high already. No one can predict for certain, but I would guess that realtors and lenders would love for everyone to think this statement is untrue so they can keep on making lots of money. I bet that’s where the info came from.
#5: A bathroom or kitchen renovation is the best way to add lasting resale value to your home. Whoever wrote this doesn’t understand simple depreciation. Everything in your home depreciates in value. The appliances, the drywall, the plumbing, everything. The only thing that has been appreciating (and won’t forever) is the land value. The only renovations that pay for themselves are paint (if you do it yourself and you do a nice job), flooring, and inexpensive landscaping. Everything else is a net loser. Don’t do it for a profit. It doesn’t pay.
#9 New condominiums are commonly flipped for a profit before they have even been occupied. There are so many residences under construction right now, I believe we will soon see a vast number of condos coming on the rental market. This cannot be called either way right now. I suspect we will find it to be true soon enough.
#11 Buying a home outside the city and commuting to work is a good way to save money. It’s good while transportation is cheap. Just you wait.
#12: Buying an additional property to rent out is a solid investment. Once again this is only true in a growth economy. In a receding economy, this will produce some big losers.
#14: The bank owns my house. Semantics. Sure you own your home. If you don’t pay your mortgage, the bank take it away from you. Then they will own it. If you don’t have a mortgage and you don’t pay your taxes, the city can take your home away from you.
#15: You’ve just sold your house and have made a ton of money off it. What a silly thing to say. I think this was put in to entice people to buy with the sole intent of making money. Foolishness. These types of investors are often “caught holding the bag”.
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dingus Says:
May 1st, 2008 at 3:32 pm
Not sure if anyone else is as interested as me in this episode…perhaps condohype, which makes me feel guilty for not posting it on his first rate, terrific, absolutely fantabulous site.
But this essay
http://www.herecomeseverybody......mouse.html
by Clay Shirky about …about… um…, well, the ability of the internet to channel “cognitive surplus” rather than relying on TV or gin to anaesthetize the general public. He has a book about organizing without organizations, which is kinda what’s going on with VHB — vancondo — mohican — Chipman (commenters) — solipsist, fish et al. Not that it’s a cause or anything, but it is a bunch of folks with cognitive surplus that collaborate in a particular area to create collaborative channels of meaning. And these channels recently interacted with Old Media on the 15 Myths thing, and … well, you know the rest.
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Snark Says:
May 1st, 2008 at 3:38 pm
So who wants to bet we don’t see anymore ‘reader comment’ forms on real estate stories on the Vancouver Sun site?
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Michael Randallbard Says:
May 1st, 2008 at 8:50 pm
T.hu……how about you head back to Hu Land or where ever you came from?
What you are about to witness in this city is going to crush you like a stale bitter melon. Those of us who have lived in this city for a generation know exactly what I mean.
And it always happens when it is least desireable for the hypers. The Olympics are going to be a major flop leaving us with a giant bill and not nearly as many visitors as they expected due to 200.00 oil and food shortages and riots around the world. No one will care about Vancouver by then.
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Mariana Says:
May 2nd, 2008 at 10:10 am
I’m looking for the blogger that wrote this (see below). I’m working on the CBC’s “The Early Edition” and would love to talk to you. Please give me a call at 604-662-6957.
Thanks.
This weekend the Vancouver Sun ran a story about the top 15 real estate myths and realities which generated a lot of reader feedback. As of last night their website had many comments, the majority of which disagreed with some of the points in that article or the way that it was presented.
Today the comment section looks different. This morning all but two comments had disappeared, with many readers here claiming to have re-submitted comments that have not showed up. I’ve personally submitted a comment that has not yet appeared on their site. Since this morning one additional comment has been posted (congratulations ‘crabman!’).
I’m going to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that this is a temporary technical problem rather than a concerted effort to censor public feedback and appease real estate advertisers. If they are experiencing technical difficulties I’m sure they would want to keep the conversation going, so please feel free to post your comments here while we wait for them to solve the problem and re-post reader comments on their website.
133 X Controversy surrounds Vancouver Sun real estate piece « mtippett Says:
May 2nd, 2008 at 11:32 am
[...] vancouvercondo.info [...]
134 X Controversy surrounds Vancouver Sun real estate piece » BlockGarden Says:
May 2nd, 2008 at 11:41 am
[...] vancouvercondo.info via mtippett [...]