suddenly poorer, condo prices to fall furthest.
It looks like the ‘correction’ phase of the Canadian real estate market cycle is picking up steam and Vancouver is strapped to the front on the locomotive. Homeowners who relied on property values to boost their net worth are discovering that they’re suddenly poorer than they were a year ago:
When Pat Webb moved to Vancouver a year ago, she didn’t think twice about buying a condo in tony Kitsilano, among the hottest neighbourhoods in the city’s booming real estate market.
But in August, the 70-year-old retiree decided to move back to the United States. She had sensed Vancouver’s market was slowing, but a neighbour’s condo had sold a week earlier, so she too tried to sell.
She listed her one-bedroom, 705-square-foot condo for the price she paid – $509,000 – on Aug. 30. Ms. Webb has since reduced that to $485,000. It still hasn’t sold.
And condo owners in downtown Vancouver are predicted to suffer the most in coming years:
Condo owners in downtown Vancouver are at greater risk for price depreciation than single-family homeowners in the suburbs, a BMO Capital Markets economic analyst said Tuesday.
“Condo prices could drop faster because of overbuilding,” Robert Kavcic said in an interview. “When you have excess in the market, that pushes prices down.”
A BMO survey released Tuesday suggested B.C.’s housing starts have to fall by about 25 per cent from current levels to return the market to sustainable numbers.
For those wondering why people would hold on to an investment that by all measures is set to decline for years, you can blame denial, which can be an incredibly strong force. For an example of denial at work just look to the US where prices have been falling for two years and realtors still struggle to get the message to owners who believe that their property is different and is actually gaining value.
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November 12th, 2008 at 1:44 pm
Canada buys up mortgages, central bank lends more…
November 12th, 2008 at 1:45 pm
http://www.reuters.com/article.....5520081112
November 12th, 2008 at 1:46 pm
The ponzi scheme worked as planned. The middle class sheep now suddenly realized they’ve been had.
And since in BC they cannot walk away, the lifetime of servitude to the PTB and the acceptance that… “The Greater Fool was Me” is slowly dawning on the Starbuck-in-hand crowd.
Must hurt….
Popcorn anyone?
Best regards,
arit
November 12th, 2008 at 1:47 pm
Did you expect something else?
November 12th, 2008 at 2:23 pm
Falling,
“Did you expect something else?”
Actually not, I expected just this. BUT, When you make the biggest financial decision of your life, against the stream, based on what YOU expect to be the future, it does take “nerves of steel” to hold on tight. Glad we all bears did.
At least we did not have the horrible peer pressure some people here described. There are advantages to not having family and friends
Regards,
arit
November 12th, 2008 at 2:36 pm
If you look at it on a per capita basis, our bank bailout here is now almost as big as the USA, even though our real estate crash is about 18 months behind theirs…
Somewhat worrisome for a taxpaying bear!
November 12th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
I don’t think that downtown Vancouver will go down nearly as much as anything else. There are lots of cafes and restaurants downtown, and tons of things to do. If you are young and hip, downtown Vancouver is the place to be. It’s where the action is.
November 12th, 2008 at 2:59 pm
Rob A, why would you post the same moronic bs again? Didn’t you move away from all the cafes?
November 12th, 2008 at 3:09 pm
looks like no one is secure this days : layoffs at Global TV!
November 12th, 2008 at 3:22 pm
Downtown shoebox condos have nowhere to go but down, down, and down. Vancouver is drowning in a glut of condos … and to top it off, that glut will grow even bigger as more condos are completed next year.
The real estate meltdown here will rival Phoenix in the U.S. Buh bye specuvestors!
November 12th, 2008 at 3:23 pm
Yes, at least Phoenix. That is unless Phoenix keeps going down, down, down perpetually, in which case we will never catch them.
November 12th, 2008 at 3:25 pm
Speaking of Canwest Global… LOL
Have you seen the stock value… WOW!!! Pathetic.
high of 7.5 down to 0.85… LOL Talk about an ass-whuppin’!!
November 12th, 2008 at 3:46 pm
I don’t know ho came with this HongKong size style condos;bed idea in the log run; ho wants to pay 500k for them and raise a family in shoeboxes, unless you are ….guess?
November 12th, 2008 at 3:56 pm
This is news? How come everyone here saw the huge number of condos under construction and lack of affordability and predicted this correction a year ago, but the ‘experts’ are just now figuring it out? It’s not rocket science, it’s simple supply and demand.
Speaking of supply, all those unsold condos on the market right now? They’re about to be joined by 10,000 more:
http://vancouvercondo.info/wik.....ndo_supply
November 12th, 2008 at 4:03 pm
Peculiar happenings at Craigslist Rentals page:
I returned to Vancouver at the end of July and for a few months prior to my return I browsed the rentals section on Craigslist. Here’s what I have found and the peculiar thing that I noticed today:
I began to search the rentals with the search term “downtown” and the first search (which I did on or about May 1st) returned 1650 hits. That is, there were that many listings in that category with the word “downtown” somewhere in the listing. Now, that included any listing with the word downtown, so the actual number of listings actually in downtown was fewer. Nevertheless, using that same search consistently over time would give me a good indicator about the trends in supply. So what happened?
Well, throughout May, the number of hits oscillated between 1600 and 1700, then began to tick up as of June. By the time I arrived in Vancouver (late July) it had ticked up to 1800. Then the 2000 mark was crossed in early September and since then (in about six weeks time) the number of listings has grown dramatically, so that as of yesterday it had maxed out at 3885 listings. I was anxiously waiting for the 4,000 mark and thought it might hit today, so imagine my shock when I did a search for “downtown” in the Craigslist rentals today and the total was 1000.
For some reason, they are only listing the most recent 1000 hits, and no more. I wonder why the change? Does anyone have any idea? Is there something nefarious going on here?
I will continue to track the numbers, but now will compute the total number of new listings daily–for “downtown”–rather than the total number of hits. All I know is that rental supply is absolutely exploding and while prices have been relatively sticky, they are beginning to come down now. If you’re a potential landlord, do the smart thing and drop your price to a level commensurate with being able to attract a solid tenant.
November 12th, 2008 at 4:15 pm
mrjauk, there’s nothing nefarious going on. Craigslist is based out of SF and doesn’t care about altering van real estate listings. They’ve just optimised their system to show only 1000 hits on a search term.
I can add the following anecdote to the rental listings topic though: I moved a few years ago and searching for a rental was a big chore – any place that was decent had a bunch of people looking at it, the rental market was tight and competetive. I recently moved again, because I went to look at a house in east van and we were the only ones to look at it. It was a good deal, exactly the sort of place that would have had a lot of interest a few years ago and had been advertised on craigslist for almost a week before we looked at it.
I’m not sure why the big change or if this was an isolated incident, but it sure seems like the rental market has changed dramatically. Are renters moving away from expensive vancouver just as a bunch of new housing is being finished?
November 12th, 2008 at 4:22 pm
I just got a rental reduction of 22.5%.From $1550 to $1200.The landlord offered it when the lease expired and I gave notice to vacate.
November 12th, 2008 at 4:24 pm
The article you quote is for Vancouver WA, and does not apply to Vancouver British Columbia, the best real estate anywhere.
We are running out of sky.
November 12th, 2008 at 4:53 pm
“I just got a rental reduction of 22.5%.From $1550 to $1200.The landlord offered it when the lease expired and I gave notice to vacate.”
CMHC says: Liar!
I’ve heard similar accounts. We are finding out which tenants have the AAA cred; apparently you are one of them.
November 12th, 2008 at 4:58 pm
Die !!! , the great RE Satan… Die !!!
November 12th, 2008 at 5:02 pm
Here’s the latest on San Fran’s housing prices. The reason I post it here is I’ve often heard of Vancouverites drawing comparisons between these two cities. Ignoring the differences in local economies, incomes, etc…
San Fran is tanking, see link:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vodk.....ncisco.png
Down around 30%.
There is no doubt in my mind that Vancouver’s upcoming crash will be one for the ages. We will be talking about this crash for generations to come. We will also look back at the marketing and constant pumping and wonder how so many people fell for it.
Sit back bears, hibernation is nearing an end, soon the feasting will begin.
November 12th, 2008 at 5:03 pm
“Nobody has better fundamentals than downtown, for the investor or the homeowner.” -Bob Rennie, October 4, 2008.
The fundamentals of the downtown condo economy are strong, eh? Well, I guess Bob’s not wrong if by fundamentals he means high prices, low demand and over supply.
November 12th, 2008 at 5:04 pm
The article you quote is for Vancouver WA
Vancouver WA has a kitsilano and is located outside the USA? I had no idea.
If we’re running out of sky does that mean we’ll get rid of these F#%*ing rain clouds soon? What a depressing climate.
November 12th, 2008 at 5:06 pm
This is awesome
You got the idiot Thums up (or some nutjob who pretends to be an idiot? hard to know)and then a really smart comment right after it in this Sun article
“Thums up2Wed, Nov 12, 08 at 04:08 PM
Read this writing on the wall”Vancouver Real Estate Never Go Down”no matter what bmo,rbc,ct ,real estate board with media combined has to say there is no piont other than current market volitilities,Buy before March 2009 otherwise this same media will pop up to say opps.
ThomasWed, Nov 12, 08 at 04:11 PM
It’s important to remember that the baby boomers will be selling their houses soon in order to retire and this will obviously create a demand for rich people, the kind of people who have made 6 figures for a long time and were able to buy property in the 70′s for much less. It was really easy for the boomers to do this so obviously the vacuum created by all these boomers selling will draw more rich people here to buy. How can you go wrong? If you can’t afford to speculate on a $1.2 million dollar tear down in the west side then get out and buy a condo downtown! If you don’t see value at todays prices and buy then you are a bitter renter. Further proof is in the baby boomers who bought 4 houses in the 1970′s and can cover the mortgage with the current rental rates. See it’s clear? All we need is for the boomers to sell at todays rates and quadruple the averqage income and import rich people and there is no bubble here.”
November 12th, 2008 at 5:13 pm
“This is news? How come everyone here saw the huge number of condos under construction and lack of affordability and predicted this correction a year ago, but the ‘experts’ are just now figuring it out? It’s not rocket science, it’s simple supply and demand.”
The “experts” are liars,and it is a sad commentary that they have(knowingly) ruined so many young people’s financial lives,and there will be no reprisal.
November 12th, 2008 at 5:46 pm
There is no doubt in my mind that Vancouver’s upcoming crash will be one for the ages. We will be talking about this crash for generations to come
That’s what I (and a lot of other people) thought about the 1981-83 bust too and look what happened.
Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.
November 12th, 2008 at 5:50 pm
The Great Revolt of 2009. “I do not believe you, thus I will not spend, and all my money will stay in my hand.”
Yeah, roll that one up and smoke it in your next bailout package!
November 12th, 2008 at 6:02 pm
Vancouver mayor calls for police probe into stolen Olympic-related document
Meanwhile, it’s been revealed that three campaign donation cheques from Millennium were delivered last week to Ladner and two other NPA candidates for their election campaigns.
http://calsun.canoe.ca/Sports/.....90066.html
why would anyone be surprised..i think this story is big news
November 12th, 2008 at 6:22 pm
$1400 / 2br – New Condos DT Surrey the New YALETOWN (10822 City Parkway)
Reply to: hous-916518085@craigslist.org [?]
Date: 2008-11-12, 1:35PM PST
Renting new 2 bedroom 2 bath condos by Gateway Station includes Granite countertops,hardwood flooring,stainless steel Appliances and strata fees(hydro/gas),washer/dryer.Harp 604-306-2017
November 12th, 2008 at 6:28 pm
new yaletown
Thanks for posting. I might be interested, as I LOVE Granite countertops, hardwood flooring and stainless steel Appliances.
Please answer the following questions for me:
1. How much monthly strata?
2. How much parking?
3. How much would the mortgage be if I had to pay it myself (to see if worth renting it)?
Thanks in advance,
arit
November 12th, 2008 at 6:50 pm
THOSE WHO IGNORE HISTORY ARE DOOMED TO REPEAT IT.
Patriotz,you mean people who missed the boat would do that again?
“REALTORS STRUGGLE TO CONVINCE PEOPLE THAT THEIR HOME PRICES HAS FALLEN,TOO”
Oh Mr Realtor What you want people to do? List their homes to flood the market when sales are not keeping the pace? Or Reduce the prices to make your day?.
When dumbheads don’t know what are they talking about then why don’t they just shut up and dance? Hey dumbhead realtors,board,and banker pimps,if nobody comes to buy your mortgage product and sales listing does that mean crash is coming?I would say your jobs are leaving your soul.
Home owners are not here to fund the banks and realtors job,Home prices does not need any support to stand at peak so just shut the fuck off and lose your job right away idiots.Also Mind it compulsory that Vancouver Real Estate Never Go Down.
November 12th, 2008 at 7:30 pm
What is that saying ?
If you owe the banks $1000 , YOU have a problem
If you owe the banks $1 Million , the BANKS have a problem.
If the banks are going broke…Gov’t (= US) have a problem = Gov’t = US to the rescue ?
F#ck !!!!
November 12th, 2008 at 7:32 pm
unless Phoenix keeps going down, down, down perpetually, in which case we will never catch them.
Don’t be so negative — we will catch them! We’re number one..for crashing prices!
November 12th, 2008 at 7:38 pm
Did everyone catch reply #2 above?
Thanks “falling”, and that news was so scary they moved it here:
http://www.reuters.com/article.....5520081112
I did a google news search for more sources of this story and I can’t seem to find anything other than this one Reuters article.
How can it be that we’re doing a $50 BILLION bank bailout in Canada (over $1K each per man/woman/child in Canada) and this isn’t the biggest story in the country???!!!
November 12th, 2008 at 7:45 pm
Didya catch the Global TV News tonite …and all the gifts the Vancouver Council (NPA and Vision ) were getting from various groups (many of them developers)… ie Tickets to Concerts, Hockey Games, Cirque de Soleil…etc.
Then ol Sam Sullivan wants the VPD cops to do a criminal investigation for the Leak ?
I say give the leaker an “Order of Canada” !!!
November 12th, 2008 at 7:50 pm
Also in under-reported news:
CPP Fund loses $10 billion of value in its investments in latest quarter to $117.4B
Choice quote:
“While the CPP Board’s latest losses can be made up with future growth in the markets, if such red ink continues for years it would raise the spectre of possible rising contributions for workers or lower payments to retirees in the future.”
November 12th, 2008 at 8:12 pm
Just phoned up this landlady to ask why she had said strata fees include some utilities — to clarify if the strata fee was included in the rent. SHe said yes, it is. Then I said it is unusual for landlord/ladies to put strata fees in the ads, it shows they may be amateur landord/ladies.
She PROUDLY retorted: “I am not an amateur. I have 5 places for rent!”
http://tinyurl.com/6gmkul
November 12th, 2008 at 8:21 pm
Umdesch4, Canada’s $50-billion “bank bailout” is not a bailout. Basically, the government is buying insured mortgages. The feds are doing this to clear up available cash for the banks so they can do more lending to us. Because of the global credit crunch, it’s harder for banks to borrow cash from global markets. This purchase frees up cash for the banks to lend.
November 12th, 2008 at 8:32 pm
This how to really make money in Real Estate!
http://www.news1130.com/news/e.....t=e111270A
November 12th, 2008 at 8:37 pm
Previously rented at $5300, now $4500 with one month FREE! Furnished $4,500 or Unfurnished $3,900
http://vancouver.en.craigslist.....22074.html
Is it my eyes or is that a 26% REDUCTION in rent???
November 12th, 2008 at 9:07 pm
Umdesch4, Canada’s $50-billion “bank bailout” is not a bailout. Basically, the government is buying insured mortgages.
Correct, the taxpayer was already holding the bag.
The bailout took place when the taxpayer was given the bag – right when the mortgage loan was made.
November 12th, 2008 at 9:11 pm
arit wrote: There are advantages to not having family and friends.
OK, now that I believe
November 12th, 2008 at 9:11 pm
Here’s a funny one!
” I just want to sell and buy my dreamhome ”
http://vancouver.en.craigslist.....26654.html
November 12th, 2008 at 9:30 pm
A question for you bears…
Regarding:
“Previously rented at $5300, now $4500″
How many people here know ONE case of someone renting a condo, any condo, at 4500? Just out of curiosity…
Regards
arit
November 12th, 2008 at 9:31 pm
islander
“OK, now that I believe”
Care to elaborate?
Regards
arit
November 12th, 2008 at 9:35 pm
yeah nutslaps! don’t be afraid to get out once awhile to have fun spend moneys! can’t take it with you! also get some money on table for next leg up!
November 12th, 2008 at 9:36 pm
Anyone else read the Peter Simpson apologia on the Sun’s editorial page today. I smelled a lot of ass covering… hilarious that he tries to say he called the US housing debacle in august 2007…
The funniest was when he described the latest national realtors meeting. There was no smell of fear in the air … he swears!
http://www.canada.com/vancouve.....1e8fce9c66
Canadians have been suckling on fear for months, brought on initially by the negative U.S. psychology creeping across the border and permeating the psyche of consumers, eroding confidence.
Every morning we awaken to another news report of blood-letting in the stock markets, real estate or employment. Pulling the blanket over one’s head can be an attractive alternative to facing the day.
There is no modern-era precedent to these economic conditions, so fear is a natural reaction. Remember the fear surrounding the dawn of the new millennium, 2000? What happened? Nothing.
Editors, both print and electronic media, have little difficulty choosing the day’s lead story: “If it bleeds, it leads” typically gets the nod. Always has been, always will be, so get used to it.
Keep in mind editors, reporters and broadcasters have families, homes and the same financial commitments as other folks. They, too, worry about these uncertain times, but their jobs are to report events in a factual and balanced manner. Columnists, of course, have the freedom to express their opinions on issues, as long as they don’t run afoul of editorial policy and legal guidelines.
I am in close contact with my counterparts at builders’ associations throughout the U.S. In August 2007, I wrote a Westcoast Homes column in The Vancouver Sun that chronicled the U.S. subprime mortgage debacle, where many factors contributed to nightmarish experiences for many American families.
November 12th, 2008 at 9:48 pm
Here’s one for you alcoholics in the crowd~
“15 minute walk to the liquor store at Park Royal”
http://vancouver.en.craigslist.....66554.html
November 12th, 2008 at 9:49 pm
Yah, Peter Simpson. What an a*s!
November 12th, 2008 at 10:00 pm
Actually Simpson said:
I am in close contact with my counterparts at builders’ associations throughout the U.S. In August 2007, I wrote a Westcoast Homes column in The Vancouver Sun that chronicled the U.S. subprime mortgage debacle, where many factors contributed to nightmarish experiences for many American families.
He didn’t “call” it, he wrote about it after it was already history.
Funny though he couldn’t see the forest for the trees – i.e. the reason for the US crash was that prices were too high, and see the same here.
November 12th, 2008 at 10:09 pm
Peculiar happenings at Craigslist Rentals page
Yes indeed. Unfortunately, I think we are going to see rents slide in this city as predicted in the USA by at least one fund manager according to bloomberg:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/.....refer=home.
I say “unfortunately” because it would be the result of a very bad local and global economy.In South Granville I continue to see for rent signs popping up. The test will be how many rollover at month end. I have never seen that happen in this city. If it starts…look out below.
November 12th, 2008 at 10:19 pm
“Peter Simpson, Special to the Sun”
Yeah, i’ll bet he’s Special to the Sun, alright.
And at the bottom it says
“Peter Simpson is chief executive officer for the Greater Vancouver Home Builders’ Association”
it’s in the newspaper, but i think it’s more an advertorial than anything else.
November 12th, 2008 at 10:26 pm
I love this line from Pete’s article:
Keep in mind editors, reporters and broadcasters have families, homes and the same financial commitments as other folks. They, too, worry about these uncertain times, but their jobs are to report events in a factual and balanced manner.
WOW! I havn’t seen much of this reporting since the bubble started and even became obvious to novus economists like me.
Hah, these knobhead experts still dont get it, the construction boom was a bubble, caused by speculative lending and so called investing. Fundamentals are returning (always do, always will), just hope my tax dollars arn’t blown away on reckless lenders and auto industry (this bugs the shit out of me). Government doesn’t think folks are going to foreclose on loans. I think we are all numb with figures from US bailouts, $80Billion doesn’t seem as bad as $700 billion plus. But what is the population of Canada?
November 12th, 2008 at 10:33 pm
Looking forward to hearing J-Pod’s presentation ‘State of Condo Market’ tomorrow. Wonder if the Q&A sessions will be barred like Tsur’s. Maybe I will just throw bread rolls at her evertime I disagree with her verbal diarrhea.
November 12th, 2008 at 10:53 pm
‘State of Condo Market’
Where is this and when?
November 12th, 2008 at 10:54 pm
Thanks for the replies on the “bailout that isn’t really a bailout”. Reading those and thinking about it, I guess it’s not quite so bad. But I still have to wonder why, if our banks are supposedly in such great shape (compared to their US counterparts) they still need a capital infusion like this.
The article was low on details…are we going to see our banks use the money to pay out more hefty bonuses, like we’re seeing down in the States, or were there some strings attached to ensure that it actually frees up some credit as intended?
Seems to me an announcement of this magnitude deserves some more detailed reporting.
November 12th, 2008 at 11:23 pm
Yeah nutslaps! I drink my chai tea yeah yeah!Read this writing on the wall”Vancouver Real Estate Go Down”no matter what bmo,rbc,ct ,real estate board with media combined has to say there is no piont other than current market volitilities bad ,Buy before March 2009 otherwise this same media will pop up to say opps now price go down 50% nobody now everybody say REAL ESTATE GO DOWN YEAH YEAH YEAH AND I DRINK MY CHAI TEA rbc,bmo,say yeah
“In extremely unstable markets there are usually no sellers, unless they are forced sellers, and no buyers,” he said.
yeah yeah! now realtor go
November 12th, 2008 at 11:27 pm
nutslaps! today realtor leave me card and says it does “Now for being stuped and beliving in witchcraft you will have to work much harder to recoup the money you gave us.”
The offace of anothir realtrrr had a greetings card stuck on the door which read: “We wish you a sad Christmas and a shameful New Year.”
November 12th, 2008 at 11:28 pm
“When someone promises to double your money in six months they are trying to trick you,” he said. “Nothing is free in this world and that is not going to change.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7726069.stm
November 12th, 2008 at 11:35 pm
But I still have to wonder why, if our banks are supposedly in such great shape (compared to their US counterparts) they still need a capital infusion like this.
They don’t, For example TD bond maturing 2015Oct30 has a YTM of 7.06%. That’s low by historical standards. There is no government guarantee on that BTW.
The banks are also having no trouble selling preferred share issues. And that’s equity – the holder has no claim to get his money back at all.
That’s the bond and stock markets saying that the banks don’t need help.
The government just wants to be seen to be “doing something”. Those mortgages it’s buying already carry a CMHC guarantee and the banks would have no trouble selling them on the open market with a yield similar to GOC debt, if CMHC allowed this (I’m not sure it does – CMHC makes money buying them itself and repackaging them).
November 12th, 2008 at 11:38 pm
http://vancouver.en.craigslist.....22126.html
November 12th, 2008 at 11:44 pm
bdk 57,58,
your parents kitsilano home quadruple @ todays rates now you can borrow fourth part of it- interest free- and buy that coal harbour condo that should hook up quad core under quadruple then you can lend fourth part of it to your children then three genration can sit together and drink chai then say bha bai bha kya chai hai(wha brother wha what a tea).
November 13th, 2008 at 12:28 am
Arit,
Firstly, I have to say that you’re too funny man… you have the best sense of humor of any poster on this site.
As regards your question about $4,500 monthly rent:
I actually know someone who pays that kind of dough for a very sweet three-level loft-style place on Water Street in Gastown (it has a roof-top patio as well which is sweet for summer evening parties).
However, the guy runs a digital effects company that he partially operates out of the same location and he sublets one room to another friend who also runs a business from the same address.
He has been in that location for three years but the novelty is apparently wearing off and he has recently suggested that he is looking for a cheaper place.
November 13th, 2008 at 12:41 am
There are some golden Peter Simpson quotes from the Vancouver Sun that I captured on the wiki. I could find no reference to his August 2007 prognostications. If anyone can find the original link I would love to read it in all its prescient glory.
Though to be fair Simpson has been “surprised” by the level of building this year so I genuinely expect he shouldn’t be too “surprised” to see prices fall bigtime.
November 13th, 2008 at 12:56 am
Marc Emery for Mayor, here’s an idea of where Mr. Emery sees Vancouver heading.
http://westernstandard.ca/webs.....mp;start=0
“Vancouver’s Future: The Frightening Truth
I haven’t met a single voter who cares about my issues, my perspective or asks my questions, so I am truly a gadfly this election. In the next three years, Vancouver will face an economic contraction, collapse, recession, that is unprecedented in the last 50 years. Construction activity will dry up in 2009 and more so in 2010. Retail stores will be closing in large numbers after this Christmas, and many businesses here have begun substantial lay-offs that will worsen in the winter and spring ahead. Rising unemployment, homelessness, business closings, will see greater pressure on charities, Food Banks, the Salvation Army. In the next two years, the auto industry, forestry, construction, retail, restaurants will all be suffering terrible reductions in activity. This means dramatically less tax revenues to the federal government, the province and city, as great a reduction in tax revenues as we have ever seen perhaps.
The perfect storm of unfortunate circumstances will batter this Boomtown. The Olympics are here in 15 months, and it couldn’t be worse timing. That will be the trough of the recession, the worst part. Revenue to the Olympics will be much less than anticipated, while Olympic over-runs are legacies guaranteed by the taxpayers of Vancouver and British Columbia. It will impact on the City’s budget perhaps up to $40 to $50 million dollars. The budget over-runs that Vancouver taxpayers are on the hook for is ominous and looming. The cost of one Olympic legacy project, the Trout Lake Ice Rink Replacement Project, has more than tripled, saddling Vancouver taxpayers with more than $10 million in extra costs. As a result, a community centre replacement has been put on hold. The City has also set aside a $20 Million Olympic Legacy Reserve, which is funding Olympic lights and Olympic banners. $20 million for banners and lights? Luxuries, surely.”
Sounds familiar.
November 13th, 2008 at 1:22 am
I haven’t met a single voter who cares about my issues, my perspective or asks my questions, so I am truly a gadfly this election. In the next three years, Vancouver will face an economic contraction, collapse, recession, that is unprecedented in the last 50 years.
Funny how it takes a fringe candidate to tell it like it really is.
Vancouver has found its Ron Paul.
November 13th, 2008 at 1:29 am
#65 Sounds like someone I’d vote for. If only there wasn’t that whole pot issue that pretty much puts him out of the running.
November 13th, 2008 at 8:49 am
Re: Mark Emery
Self -professed Libertarians like Marc Emery are often worth listening to once you get past the fog and the smoking banana smell. I have noticed that some candidates that run under the ” Marijuana Party” banner use it as a platform to bring good solid issues to the forefront, and not necessarily to promote legalization of what is curently prohibited.
Emery seems to cut to the chase and cut out the BS. I agree with his comments about the creeping police state…there is a un healthy mafia-like relationship between civic officials and the police. No one has ever proven to me that more money for police = safer society. Quite the contrary…, it is almost formulaic that throwing $$$ at a situation results in more paid civil servants than solutions, the illusion of greater public safety creates more of a false buzz than anything Emery sells. Police seem to be more interested in harassing innocent citizens re frivolous issues than addressing real crime.
I like his insightful comment about the Brits and the public surveillance security cameras…I heard recently the ratio was ONE public surveillance camera per 15 Brits ?
However,much of the survelliance is used for voyeuristic peeks , and the videos are of such poor quality that they often can’t be used in court?
When 2010 rolls around, watch that MEGA security bill come in. The original estimate was approx. $175 Million. I haven’t heard of a recent Olympics that didn’t have the final security bill come in at approx. $1 Billion. That lowball lie of $175 million was the first sign that lots of BS was going on behind the scenes. However,in these tough economic times, will the public have any appetite for any more lies and a bigger security bill ?
November 13th, 2008 at 9:19 am
MickeyFinn,
Thanks my friend. It does make me feel good, knowing that even if I am fired in the coming depression, I will always be able to earn a buck as the town clown!
Best regards,
arit
November 13th, 2008 at 10:31 am
Patriotz – I agree with you on the Ron Paul comparison. We may not all agree on his suggested solutions but at least he is out there trying to bring it to everyone’s attention.
Problem is we the voters. Voters continue to put more of the same in office. More empty promises. More short-sightedness.
Legalization is scary to some, I appreciate that. What’s scarier for me is voters putting new faces with the same ideologies, as in the past, back in power and expecting different results. I’m tired of it and I for one am ready for some outside-of-the-box ideas.
November 13th, 2008 at 10:47 am
RE: How can it be that we’re doing a $50 BILLION bank bailout in Canada (over $1K each per man/woman/child in Canada) and this isn’t the biggest story in the country???!!!
Im glad someone else here is concerned about this. The cloak and dagger operations of the government with taxpayer money are really concerning. There not reporting anything anymore, its kind of rediculous… “oh by the way… we just grew the national dept by 15%” I know technically the money was already promised but its the principal of the matter. Say you are a venture capital company you need to report where *all* the money is going because it is infact not your money.
Similar case for the city of Vancouver council. I would replace every single one of them.
November 13th, 2008 at 11:03 am
Arit,
Don’t take this the wrong way, but if you’re going to compete for town clown, recall our very own winner of the Grand Prix des Idiots Blithering, Krrrish, does his act for free.
You’re funny but there’s no way to compete with the Google of window lickers.
November 13th, 2008 at 11:13 am
Does anyone know where the newest Vancouver/Case-Shiller US City comparison graph is?
Somebody posted the link in the last week but I can’t find it now.
November 13th, 2008 at 11:18 am
scullboy,
When you laugh at Krish, keep the following folk tale in mind, just to be safe:
“The town clown was always mocked by the townspeople for a peculiar ‘stupidity’ he repeated almost every day – when offered a 100$ bill or a 1$ bill to chose from, he would happily chose the 1$ and be super-excited about it ‘I am rich, I am rich, I have a dollar!!!’. And they would all laugh…
This repeated itself for many years. One day I felt sorry for him, and approached him silently: ‘krish, don’t be a fool. 100 dollars is much more than one dollar’ I said.
And he replied:
‘I might be the town clown, but I am not STUPID. Once I chose the 100$ bill, it’s the end of the one dollar bills”.”
Regards
arit
November 13th, 2008 at 11:24 am
“The cloak and dagger operations of the government with taxpayer money are really concerning.”
Buff Buttler,
How would you pay tax without job? Don’t you see buyers are not interested to buy at discount prices other side governments are spending TRILLIONS of dollars to save the countries?
so one way or another you must show up in OFFICE:You will pay taxes or MARKET:You will fuel the economy,if you are not present in one of these place you must be a jobless cummuter on earth or a contributer to see more than 100,000 jobloss in next 6 months.
There is a success in your hand you can use it or waste it,I know you don’t like to catch the falling knife so just chill out unless BOSS call you in office or your neighbourer come to surprise you.
November 13th, 2008 at 11:26 am
Re $50 BILLION
How many times has any of us been in a crowded room where a given issue has been tabled, people stare at each other, no one speaks out till a voice of reason breaks the ice ? Unfortunately too much of this goes on amongst the silent sheep majority and why the ” powers- that -be” usually win.
Throughout history has there ever been a wave of speculation in any commodity that has not collapsed? If this were not the case, we and future generations would all be rich off tulip bulbs and Bre-X stock etc.
Leaders throughout history have warned of the powers of the banking system, probably moreso than Eisenhower warned about the Military Industrial Complex. The problem is the Banks play the middle ground between us and the Gov’t to the point that banks are the actual Gov’t for all intents and purposes . However, unless the system changes, the banks will double dip to treat and pimp the general public as cash addicts, and then go crying to the Gov’t when things go south that the cash addicts have OD’d and are DOA….then the Banks cry to Gov’t for another cash injection. Question: Who’s the real puppet in this Ponzi scheme?
November 13th, 2008 at 1:35 pm
RE: How can it be that we’re doing a $50 BILLION bank bailout in Canada (over $1K each per man/woman/child in Canada) and this isn’t the biggest story in the country???!!!
Because it’s not a bailout. The mortgages were insured by CMHC (i.e. the taxpayer) at time of issue. The taxpayer is not taking on any additional risk.
CMHC has been doing this for years. Read up:
Canada Housing Trust products prove popular, Largest single issuer of fixed income securities
If people want to get upset about something, they should get upset that CMHC has been insuring default-prone financing such as 0/40, and the still unacceptable 5/35. Or that CMHC has been insuring mortgages at all, given that inflated house prices mean that there is too much capital going into housing, not too little.
November 13th, 2008 at 1:39 pm
Re $50 billion, ponzi schemes and screwed taxpayers.
Oy vey. This isn’t cloak and dagger stuff. The government is selling bonds so that it can purchase Bank owned mortgages through CMHC. This will result in the banks being able to raise cash to lend, other than through the previously “frozen”, (now merely “really freakin’ sluggish”) credit markets. The issue isn’t the solvency of the banks or their having poorly performing mortgages, it’s access to credit and freeing up cash to lend.
The government is not “bailing out banks” in the same way as in the US, where the government purchased swaths of poor quality and non performing loans. The mortage pool here is CMHC insurance backed. There is no more risk to the government than before if these mortgages turn into turds.
In fact, the taxpayer stands to gain, as low yield govt bonds are exchanged for mortgages with higher yields.
It’s necessary because of the seizing of the global markets for credit, not because of trouble at the banks to do with their lending practices or assets.
But clearly, that reality is drowned out in the current panic, especially as the initiative and the proportional dollar amount mirror the efforts in the US, and the wrong signal has been sent.
November 13th, 2008 at 1:46 pm
Also agree with patriotz on the CMHC criticism. Why CMHC was trying to stimulate demand in an unprecedented boom is beyond me. They should be acting countercyclically — encouraging demand during recessions and reigning in exuberance during booms. Recall David Dodge’s criticism back a year or so ago.
November 13th, 2008 at 2:03 pm
They should be acting countercyclically — encouraging demand during recessions and reigning in exuberance during booms.
Frankly I think Harper and Flaherty were trying to create a false boom a la their role models south of the border so they could ride their way to a majority on a claim of economic success.
Unfortunately the pyramid scheme collapsed before election day.
Read what Paul Martin has to say:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story.....artin.html
By the way this is the real link for the Canada Housing Trust article:
http://www.financialpost.com/s.....mp;k=20957
November 13th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
It’s even funnier to read Krish/Time/Thums/Nobody when you know damn well he’ll be struggling just to feed himself over the next few years. Poor guy, hehe.
November 13th, 2008 at 2:59 pm
15 myths … does anyone have that 15 myths article? I know some people downloaded the pdf. This is essential reading for bubbles future, would be great to put that up with some choice quotes on the wiki. Stage an area for Derrick Penner and some of the clowns he interviewed for that long piece.
November 13th, 2008 at 3:03 pm
The fact that the mortgage buy back was announced during the election campaign proves this government is more interested in doing what’s right than what’s good politically. It freaked a lot of people out and even now probably has the worst optics of any move they could have made. Those who know how our banking system operates say that this move is a good one but to the average joe it sounds like a bailout.
As for the CMHC and it’s lax insurance requirements I think that’s the whole point of the CMHC. It’s a social program which encourages home ownership by allowing banks to give mortgages to people it normally wouldn’t lend to. It can never be done away with just like “free healthcare”.
November 13th, 2008 at 3:27 pm
Tick Tock, Tick Tock
November 13th, 2008 at 3:29 pm
Banks, Gov’t , CMHC..its the same Ponzi scheme
CMHC is a Crown ie Gov’t corporation.
Rob Peter to pay Paul ….or borrow from Melvin…or sell X or convert Y , fart blood , shit bricks, sacrifice your first born goldfish, whatever.
If the $50 Billion bailout (or whatever you want to dress it up as), did NOT happen , then what?
Its this type of governance structure that leads to creative accounting , subsidized by finger -pointing and hence delayed reaction re: inevitable consequences when the Ponzi scheme implodes.
November 13th, 2008 at 3:30 pm
Macchiato, yes I have kept the 15 Myth article and will post it as soon as I can find it.
It might take me a while.
November 13th, 2008 at 3:43 pm
Tony,
I thought i was here to assist you but you think totally opposite anyway before you lose your job lets get back to normal bussiness.
The Bank of Canada announced “measures to provide exceptional liquidity to the Canadian financial system” consisting of an additional $8 billion in short-term loans, and the Finance Department said it is prepared to purchase $50 billion more in mortgages from financial institutions.
http://www.canada.com/vancouve.....62aa3645a5
November 13th, 2008 at 3:47 pm
“If the $50 Billion bailout (or whatever you want to dress it up as), did NOT happen , then what?”
Well, possibly things like businesses not being able to tap lines of credit to make payroll, that sort of thing. The taxpayer “on the hook” is by definition someone that gets that paycheck.
Like it or not, the economy runs on credit. When that credit evaporates, the engine seizes, and we’re back in the 30′s.
But coulja calm down on the hyperventilating about ponzi schemes and such? This isn’t that complicated or nefarious.
November 13th, 2008 at 3:50 pm
My next door neighbour has been trying to sell their condo for 4 months now. He bought it last year at $410K. He first listed it at $420K, then cut to $400K, then cut to $370K, then cut to $330K, and now it’s at $300K.
Unfortunately, there are still no buyers! And to top it off, my neighbor says nobody has even come to look at his place in the last several weeks. He thinks its related to the financial crisis all over the media.
November 13th, 2008 at 4:25 pm
If it WALKS like a ponzi scheme ….TALKS like a ponzi scheme …and LOOKS like a ponzi scheme..it IS a ponzi scheme.
Of course the system runs on credit.
However, credit should be run like a control valve but not on par with a Titanic-esque leak .
Those at the top either took advantage of the situation or were ignorant of the potential.
The saying “Gov’t can NOT go broke ” was made a few decades back by an insightful party as the world became more and more addicted to credit and most at the top of the system who are often the greatest beneficiaries from such voodoo economics have never forgotten that Gov’t can NOT go broke.
November 13th, 2008 at 4:59 pm
Like it or not, the economy runs on credit. When that credit evaporates, the engine seizes, and we’re back in the 30’s.
A scary thought indeed! But what if the old stories that warn against living on credit are true? It’s sure looking a lot like the lead-up to the great depression, which is what “they” are positive they can avoid this time. “They” also said we didn’t have a problem to begin with. “They” were wrong then.
Like it or not, what I see out there looks like what Mish is describing more than it looks like what “they” are repeating like a mantra.. What if he’s right?
Here is a key, older post on “Peak Credit”.
“Peak credit has been reached. That final wave of consumer recklessness created the exact conditions required for its own destruction. The housing bubble orgy was the last hurrah. It is not coming back and there will be no bigger bubble to replace it. Consumers and banks have both been burnt, and attitudes have changed.
It took nearly 80 years for people to get as reckless as they did in 1929. 80 years! Few are still alive that went through the great depression. No one listened to them. That is the nature of the game. The odds of a significant bout of inflation now are about the same as they were in 1929. Next to none.
Children whose parents are being destroyed by debt now, will keep those memories for a long time”.
Borrowing money is dangerous, and borrowing money to fund current consumption is a TERRIBLE idea. Yet collectively that’s what we have done. Worse yet, we borrowed it from our future selves! The debt we take on enters the economy (minus big , fat paychecks for the scam artists running the show), sloshes around a time or two, making the economy look fine in the current quarter/election cycle/average sheep attention span. The debt then parks itself in our house/RRSP/mutuals/etc value, which we use as collateral to borrow even more.
The FUTURE value of all those asset classes depends on the debt being paid down.
So if I owe myself a lot of money, and can’t pay, who’s problem is it?
Without that steady stream of new “money” entering the economy, we’ve been in recession for years. The whole economy is as unsustainable as Vancouver RE prices, for the same reasons, and the only question is when does the music stop. Mish is making a very compelling case that the music HAS stopped. Got a chair?
I have a comfy chair, and popcorn. It’s been 80 years since the last time this show hit the stage. I’m gonna like it.
And deplore it, and hope we can do better next time.
November 13th, 2008 at 5:00 pm
considering selling national assets.
that can’t be good. i’d better stop reading the papers. all this bad news is starting to get to me. i guess we’ll all find out how bad it’s going to be soon. good luck everybody.
November 13th, 2008 at 5:07 pm
Anonymous said
“My next door neighbour has been trying to sell their condo for 4 months now. He bought it last year at $410K. He first listed it at $420K, then cut to $400K, then cut to $370K, then cut to $330K, and now it’s at $300K.”
Your neighbour must have overpaid.
I don’t think we’ve hit 26.8% decline yet.
Did they destroy the unit or something?
November 13th, 2008 at 5:08 pm
LOL, things are so bad, the government is selling off Canada! Good find richard
November 13th, 2008 at 5:38 pm
Richard
Harper and Flaherty are such idiots. Yeah, great idea guys, let’s sell off national assets at a time when we’re sure to get bottom dollar for them simply for a short term political gain.
Good job Canada re-electing that pack of thieves.
November 13th, 2008 at 5:38 pm
alex and N-O
We are talking different things. Overextending and incurring debt that can’t be paid off is bad bad bad. But credit and debt aren’t evil or morally repugnant in and of themselves. What do you think happens to the money you put in a savings account, and why does it earn interest?
All businesses operate with credit, whether it’s vehicle or equipment leases, lines of credit, or financing of asset purchases. It’s not that scary. Imagine if you had to save up the entire cost of a house. Or if someone who wanted to start a business had to finance the whole nut through personal savings. Purchase all your equipment as a 100% outlaid capital cost. Collect your accounts before you pay salaries. It can’t be done.
One of the problems of the 30s was the people refused to take on debt at all and hoarded savings. Without liquidity in the system it seizes up. Spending and investment contracted and wouldn’t budge. Without that spending and investment, economic activity slowed, jobs were lost and not created, which led to even less spending and investment. Which led to less economic activity, which meant no jobs being created etc. It only started to improve with massive government spending to stimulate the economy (Tennessee Valley, the War). One criticism was that government didn’t intervene enough and early enough. This is no doubt on the minds of Bernanke, Paulson and Flaherty.
No question consumer debt and mortgage debt got out of control in the US, and mortgage debt in our fair town is likely the same for a lot of recent purchasers. The problem is those excesses have caused systemic problems in all debt markets, even those that were otherwise sustainable. Now here, those excesses are unlikely to cause the same systemic problems. Right now our financial system is simply suffering collateral damage to the US meltdown.
Anyway, trust me, if it people start missing a few paycheques or get laid off because their employer can’t access credit, there would be calls for the government to “do something”. They’re doing that something right now.
All of which is to say… I gotta lay off the afternoon Starbucks.
November 13th, 2008 at 6:13 pm
Dingus: Yes, of course debt can and is used wisely. But we appear to have a systemic collapse brought on by far too much bad debt. We CANNOT fix it! Either the debt get inflated away, or it gets defaulted away. Either way the current economic model is dead for a while, and we are in for a deep, nasty recession. Right now it looks like Mish is right, and we are in a deflationary collapse of debt.
A total freeze-up of credit markets is a very, very bad symptom to have in an economy. But it is a symptom, NOT THE DISEASE!
The ONLY people accepting more debt right now is the last ones you want to have it.
With my lack of ANY debt, and fair cash reserves I could singlehandedly make more contribution to the Vancouver Westside RE market than anyone in the past 12 days. (See post 685 at RJ’s, oops, sorry, Rob’s blog)
But I won’t!
November 13th, 2008 at 6:16 pm
Dingus:
Not disagreeing.
Read the link below. Canada is mentioned as well.
http://network.nationalpost.co.....under.aspx
The pendulum swing of correction by desperate Gov’ts
In a reducto ad absurdum sense….too much of a good thing can be = too much of a bad thing.
November 13th, 2008 at 6:55 pm
“My next door neighbour has been trying to sell their condo for 4 months now. He bought it last year at $410K. He first listed it at $420K, then cut to $400K, then cut to $370K, then cut to $330K, and now it’s at $300K.”
What I’ve noticed:
I’ve been following a few, West Side, and I’ve seen one go from 399K to 325K. another on the same street is 319K, it would have gone for >400K at peak. So, the whole street has been pressured to re-price downward … problem is, no one is buying. Everything is just sitting.
Then there are the jokers who are just wasting time, like this 390sq/foot studio in Kits/Arbutus for 289K, hilarious.
November 13th, 2008 at 7:03 pm
John Furlong of Vanoc, tells how we could do our civic duty and help out during the Olympics buy shutting down some of our businesses, and take, or mandate holidays so that we can reduce congestion and perhaps volunteer our time.
I would like to volunteer to look after our female visitors “needs”; I prefer females early 20’S,
But will settle for mid 20’s if athletic and rich.
http://www.canada.com/vancouve.....6512eb7cd9
Sadly, there are fools who will actually go along with this.
Does anyone know if it is true that the Provincial Government will pay pablic servents to volunteer?
Does anyone know if they are looking for volunteers with my special talent?
November 13th, 2008 at 7:07 pm
Sorry about the spelling, I am working with a old version of Wordperfect and the spelling file is corruptedsked.
November 13th, 2008 at 7:27 pm
Macronomics Says:
> “My next door neighbour has been trying to sell their condo for 4 months now. He bought it last year at $410K. He first listed it at $420K, then cut to $400K, then cut to $370K, then cut to $330K, and now it’s at $300K.”
> “Your neighbour must have overpaid.
> I don’t think we’ve hit 26.8% decline yet.
> Did they destroy the unit or something?”
This is a misunderstanding of how markets work. You are comparing price changes on an individual home vs aggregate price changes in the market as a whole. The two do not necessarily track that closely. You should not be surprised if individual homes or neighborhoods deviate significantly from the average or median numbers.
For example, even though the DOW is “only” down 35% for the year, some individual stocks within the DOW like GM are down over 75%. People who bought GM 12 months ago paid “fair market value” at the time, since it was not possible to buy those shares for less at that time.
Likewise, in the current housing market, many home prices in West Van and Van west have already dropped by more than 33%, even though the aggregate numbers for greater Vancouver are “only” down 9% YTD.
November 13th, 2008 at 8:06 pm
See YatterMatters: no sell in 12 days of van west side:
http://www.yattermatters.com/
We regret to inform you.
In the past 12 days, the Vancouver west side detached real estate market died.
Say It Ain’t So
Each day, the blushing love for Vancouver’s west side real estate faded. A total of twelve days evidenced statistical blood lying on the floor of high priced glories past. The suffering unparalleled, cried out for Buyers.
November 13th, 2008 at 8:35 pm
CZ,
Do you think this site will help you to sell your home?
In your own words The suffering unparalleled, cried out for Buyers.
Then Why did you list your home? Take it out off market or else your realtor will ask you to Reduce asking prices If there is no buyer what’s the point of price reduction? Simply take it off before you go also tell us why were you selling this home, WHYYYYYYYY?
November 13th, 2008 at 8:58 pm
I never forget what my grandfather told me: There are two kind of people in life: the doer and the loser. Which one are you?
November 13th, 2008 at 9:01 pm
“Larry Yatkowsky is an active realtor in Vancouver”
Damn another one to join one in Florida,Wrap up your office Yatokowsky or join your brother on the front page in florida. Your Job Yatokowsky your job is going to leave your soul hold it tight.
November 13th, 2008 at 9:14 pm
Sorry Bdk at 105,i forgot to tell you that your answer is located in the handle please double check it.
November 13th, 2008 at 9:37 pm
Speaking of Ponzi Schemes (and Ponzi sailed to America on the aptly named S.S. Vancouver, no sh*t)…
This excellent Michael Lewis (of Liar’s Poker fame) article will scare the hide off the craggiest stock market bear. Did me. We ain’t seen nothing yet. One of the best things I’ve read all year in my near ADD-level of house and stock bubble article browsing
http://www.portfolio.com/news-.....print=true
“But he couldn’t figure out exactly how the rating agencies justified turning BBB loans into AAA-rated bonds. “I didn’t understand how they were turning all this garbage into gold,” he says. He brought some of the bond people from Goldman Sachs, Lehman Brothers, and UBS over for a visit. “We always asked the same question,” says Eisman. “Where are the rating agencies in all of this? And I’d always get the same reaction. It was a smirk.” He called Standard & Poor’s and asked what would happen to default rates if real estate prices fell. The man at S&P couldn’t say; its model for home prices had no ability to accept a negative number. “They were just assuming home prices would keep going up,” Eisman says. ”
… ““You have to understand this,” he says. “This was the engine of doom.” Then he draws a picture of several towers of debt. The first tower is made of the original subprime loans that had been piled together. At the top of this tower is the AAA tranche, just below it the AA tranche, and so on down to the riskiest, the BBB tranche—the bonds Eisman had shorted. But Wall Street had used these BBB tranches—the worst of the worst—to build yet another tower of bonds: a “particularly egregious” C.D.O. The reason they did this was that the rating agencies, presented with the pile of bonds backed by dubious loans, would pronounce most of them AAA. These bonds could then be sold to investors—pension funds, insurance companies—who were allowed to invest only in highly rated securities. “I cannot f**king believe this is allowed—I must have said that a thousand times in the past two years,” Eisman says.
His dinner companion in Las Vegas ran a fund of about $15 billion and managed C.D.O.’s backed by the BBB tranche of a mortgage bond, or as Eisman puts it, “the equivalent of three levels of dog sh*t lower than the original bonds.” ”
November 13th, 2008 at 9:50 pm
Does anyone know if it is true that the Provincial Government will pay pablic servents to volunteer?
That’s an oxymoron. If they’re paid, they’re not volunteers.
It is true that the provincial government will pay public servants to work for the Olympics, with their salaries not accounted for in the tally of the games’ cost.
Thank you Gordo.
November 13th, 2008 at 9:54 pm
I found this cool graph of the tsx from 1981 to 2007
http://www.cbc.ca/news/interactives/map-tsx/
November 13th, 2008 at 10:11 pm
The key to making money in real estate is to know how to locate bargain properties. Bargains are everywhere right now. To buy you have to be a doer, not a loser. Vote green for doer and red for loser!!!
November 13th, 2008 at 10:21 pm
It is true that the provincial government will pay public servants to work for the Olympics, with their salaries not accounted for in the tally of the games’ cost.
GORDO, traitor to free enterprise.
November 14th, 2008 at 12:19 am
93: “Your neighbour must have overpaid.”
Ya think?
November 14th, 2008 at 7:44 am
Liars Poker:
Excellent Book !
That cemented my skepticism of how the system really works.
Shows how history repeats itself and much of the bubble’s genesis