The bubble has burst!
There are a lot of quotes in the media these days from local developers and politicians with variations on the theme ‘nobody saw the Vancouver housing bust coming‘. This is surprising when you consider how many blogs we have out there dedicated to the concept that Vancouver house prices got way out of hand and are in for the mother of all corrections.
But lets not blame the experts too much, perhaps the extent of their research was a Google search for the term ‘Vancouver house prices‘ which yields this reassuring CBC article as the first result: Vancouver house prices expected to rise 9 percent in 2008. If you’re expecting a 9 percent increase in house prices, I suppose a 15% drop from market peak could really catch you off guard.
So this is my ‘told you so‘ moment. Not that the real estate market would see a sharp correction. Nope, I certainly wasn’t the only one to predict that. Most of the long-time readers here at vancouvercondo.info made the same prediction, as did many other local bloggers, so that’s no unique feat. I do believe however, that I was the only one to correctly call the Vancouver Bubble Blog Bubble at the beginning of 2007. Here’s the updated version of that chart along with my count of local bubble blogs:
1. March 2005: Vancouver Housing Blog – the original, closed in Feb 2007
2. Nov 2005: Rob Chipmans – gets a half point for being moderately bearish
3. June 2006: VancouverCondo.Info – Hey that’s us right here!
4. Oct 2006: Vancouver Unrealestate – Looks to be closing down January 2009
5. Dec 2006: BC Housing -Uncertainbuyer closed down end of 2008
6. Jan 2007: Financial Planning and Personal Sanity -now Housing Analysis
7. March 2007: Condohype – Still disowning the lifestyle
8. Dec 2007: North Vancouver Homes – stats and housing market data
9. Feb 2008: Vancouver Real Estate Anecdote Archive – just as the title says
10. Jan 2008: Fishy Real Estate – FishRE closed down the blog in 2008 Q3
11. Feb 2008: Coco News – shared economic news stories, closed 2008 Q3
12. Feb 2008: Vancouver Housing Crash – last post September 2008
Have I missed your favorite Vancouver housing market blog? Add it to the Wiki!
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January 21st, 2009 at 6:22 am
I’M #1 I tink
January 21st, 2009 at 6:34 am
As an editorial comment, albeit an abstract one :
Maybe the Pastricks , Muirs, Rennies etc. who helped dispensed the Kool aid laced with false sense of hope and security should be the ones to slowly let the air out to the sheep.
They can slowly ratchet down the bad news bit -by -bit.
That way we don’t have riots.
If they had stood on soapbox and did a fast 1800 degree, and apologised for not only being wrong , but perhaps even admitting to many white or even blatant lies, think of the public’s response.
January 21st, 2009 at 6:39 am
If they had stood on soapbox and did a fast 1800 degree….
Well, they are VERY skilled spinners! Apropos typo.
January 21st, 2009 at 6:49 am
alas Jean Gibson!
we hardly knew you
blogs passing in the gloom
January 21st, 2009 at 7:07 am
Re Other RE blogs
Well, maybe Darwin is kicking in (with a little help from God.)
Like everything , contraction, consolidation rationalization etc. happens and blogs are not immune.
The RE Blogs that remain are likley due to popular demand and deserve to live on.
As I have posted before…we are in the midst of major historical events on a global scale and keeping the lines of communication, dialogue , discussion and the continued sharing of infromation are even more important now than before, given what was predicted since these RE blogs opened has now become a reality.
January 21st, 2009 at 7:33 am
9600 new condos soon to hit the market whilst 141 projects in the lower mainland are looking for buyers as you read this.
At least 13 major projects mothballed (call it 14, Wall project won’t proceed methinks)
In this environment I condemn the city for continually bragging about how many jobs its saving at the Olympic Village. It started at 1000 and is now up to 2000.
From my experience the city had better check that each and every worker is entitled to work in this country. It is no secret that Spanish has become the language of choice for condo construction in the lower mainland, nobody works cheaper. The fastest way to clear an entire building is to shout … Immigray, Policia !!!
January 21st, 2009 at 7:39 am
“Nov 2005: Rob Chipmans – gets a half point for being moderately bearish”
I’m not sure about a half point; perhaps a 1/10th of a point would be more appropriate, seems to me he entertains the idea the market could correct, but then he gets a sale and he gets smug very fast.
Then there is his sidekick-my god! How did he learn to feed himself.
January 21st, 2009 at 8:16 am
“In this environment I condemn the city for continually bragging about how many jobs its saving at the Olympic Village. It started at 1000 and is now up to 2000.”
whatever the number is it’s only for 8 more months. when that project finishes that is a lot of people to be on the lookout for other opps.
January 21st, 2009 at 8:24 am
Regarding “refugee” labour at Millenieum Water
Since taxpayers will be paying the whole shot for the Olympic Village perhaps its time to question the spewage of those claiming upwards of 2000 jobs will be “saved”.
I was a site superintendent at MW and can state as a 100% guaranteed fact that MANY workers there have no legal work status in this country. Many are “refugees” from Honduras, San Salvador, Guatemala, or have absolutely no legal status here whatsoever.
They work cheap (no benefits), under the table, and don’t complain. As a rule they send most of their wages home. Great deal for developers in boom times, terrible for Canadians who work their asses off and pay their taxes their entire lives and now find themselves unable to find work.
6000 jobs lost in construction last month. That rapidly shrinking pool of work should go to those who legally deserve it.
January 21st, 2009 at 9:10 am
Further to the self evident it is common knowledge in the business that painting has been almost completely taken over by Espanole over the past few years. Inside and out.
It takes no capital and very little skill to call oneself a painter and the vast majority of the work is “sub contracted”. Its perfect for semi and unskilled workers and thats the reason “refugees” have graviated towards it.
There will be many, many undocumented painters on the MW site very soon and a body can quote me on that.
Canadians simply can’t compete, and thats a condemnation of a “refugee” program that welcomes illegal labour with open arms and provides an unlimited supply of crack dealers on the DT eastside.
January 21st, 2009 at 9:15 am
QUOTE:
“In this environment I condemn the city for continually bragging about how many jobs its saving at the Olympic Village. It started at 1000 and is now up to 2000.”
What I read into this is sheer desperation by the Gov’t.
The Olympic Village has transformed from the World Class (barf) COV investment to now being promoted a ” make work” project reminiscent of those 1930′s Depression photos.
Hearing politicians like Premier Gordo have a knee -jerk comment after allowing the COV Charter amendment to be changed in a literal heartbeat…… and that 2000 count em 2000 PEOPLE ARE KEPT WORKING on what will ultimately become a $1 Billion + monument to publically funded specuvesting and a constant reminder of all that went wrong, is simply both amusing and scary to listen to.
January 21st, 2009 at 9:27 am
9 Stoxxman Says:
January 21st, 2009 at 8:24 am
Regarding “refugee” labour at Millenieum Water
I was a site superintendent at MW and can state as a 100% guaranteed fact that MANY workers there have no legal work status in this country. Many are “refugees” from Honduras, San Salvador, Guatemala, or have absolutely no legal status here whatsoever.
================================
In the good old days…what one saw was generally ” Out of Province ” license plates but Canadian citizens exercising the mobility provisions the Charter or Rights and Freedoms allow.
However, if, in fact , “illegal aliens” or foreign workers without the proper paperwork do take jobs from the legal candidates.
If anyone should clamp down it is COV…beacuse there will be a backlash if and when it is found that illegal workers on this Olympic Village project are being paid through funds that the COV taxpayer will be paying off for aloooonngg looonnggg time. Local Unemployed will be pissed !!
This begets another question:
Is this monitored and audited ..does the COV simply cut cheques to Contractors who then pay off their workers as they see fit? ie IF ther are illegal workers working cheap, are they paid under the table with what is now TAXPAYER funds via the $500 Million Loan the COV is pursuing ?
January 21st, 2009 at 9:39 am
Hate to be sounding like a flaming prejudiced Archie Bunker but the facts are what they are, and its absolutely no secret in the business.
So. Question. Is the City now in the developers’ shoes and seeking every possible avenue to reduce costs?
If thats the case is it in taxpayers’ interests for the City to turn a blind eye to the fact its site is full of undocumented and illegal foreign workers?
In a Machevellian way it is funny as bloody hell though.
Shout “Immigray !!!” on site and the boys scatter like the wind. They quite literally RUN away.
January 21st, 2009 at 9:54 am
Im suprised those illegals would bother running, has there ever been an immigration raid at a job site in bc?
January 21st, 2009 at 10:07 am
It is a mystery why developers will go to great lengths to hack down the tradespeople and then turn around and hand out whopping commissions to “presentation centre agents” who sit in a chair in a sparsely furnished commercial space with gleaming stainless steel appliance package WITH COMMERCIAL GRADE RANGE!
Why not get some illegals in the display centres?
“would you like one or two today sir/madam?”
January 21st, 2009 at 10:12 am
COV Adminstrative Report tabled JAN. 20, 2009
Olympic Village Loan details
http://vancouver.ca/ctyclerk/c.....ts/rr2.pdf
In a first skim over, looks like the COV will be obligated to a LIBOR (London InterBank Offered Rate)of Minimum 5% plus 4.5% = 9.5 %
Even if LIBOR drops…(which it dropped to 2% in fall 2008)the total interests paid stays at 9.5% MINUMUM
Compounding this may be currency fluctuations,which may add more costs.
In addition, it seems the City is “lending” to Millenium , so how will the City monitor it’s “creditor” ie Millenium…can Millenium play its own games and seek ways to claim breach of contract ie late payments, interference, etc. etc…and sue the City etc.for whatever motives….this could get quite interesting !!!
January 21st, 2009 at 10:21 am
Re : COV Report …
“Millennium has been unable to find alternative financing on any terms on its own strength.”
O.K. Let me get this straight. Millennieum put up 3% of the project value and that dough is now going to be used for the next progress payment on Feb 15.
Millennieum has no equity in this project, thus the reason why nobody will lend them a nickle for the project.
Why, (the flying fork) does the city continue pandering to Millenieum? They mismanaged this project to $ 100 million in cost overuns already. Protecting existing sales? That is rubbish because there’s no motivation for buyers to complete if the value of their deal has dropped massively since they bought. It would pay to walk and lose the deposit irregardless of WHO the supposed developer is.
January 21st, 2009 at 10:26 am
Wouldn’t be surprised, nor blame, the BC FED for making a big stink if illegal foreign workers are on the Olympic Village job.
One has to presume that premiums were placed on labour and materials costs when the Olympic Village contracts were signed.
So…if some Contractor is
(i)paying someone less than market rate when the job was bid, and pocketing the difference
OR
(ii)outright paying some illegal alien under the table and again pocketing the even larger difference ?
I say N-O way….that is an outright rip-off …time to “out” them.
This project has transformed from a quasi- private sector venture to a PUBLC MAKE -WORK PROJECT.
THUS: The Public is effectivley NOW the major shareholder in the Olympic Village …the cost versus benefit has morphed to workers being paid fair market wages(likley at the old higher rates the job was bid on)….. paying taxes with all the proper deductions.
January 21st, 2009 at 10:35 am
any suggestions on how one would go about outing this?
January 21st, 2009 at 10:36 am
RUN DO WHILE LOOP ON BEARS
BULLS Are runing a do while loop on bears but when ever bears get trapped in the loop somehow they are able to copy themself through system restore point in a result this graph on main post is being repeated too often.Now bulls have decided to turn off system restore point before runing do while loop that way bears can not return back through system restore,Fresh loop is as following…
row 10 column 5 “Vancouver Boom2 acquisition is In Progress”
12.5″3wk Average prices for January 2009 $858.000.Bencmark Price?.”
13.5″August 2007,Average Price $856,107 Benchmark $726,067.”
14.5″Calculate the difference
15.5″SURE”
16.5″Inventory Specially in Vancouver show result?. Soaked”
17.5″Bears case deletion is being requested”
18.5″Successful deletion is guaranteed by April 2009″
20.10″Vancouver Boom2 acquisition progress will be countinue in progress.
21.5″Why”
22.5″Because hey VANCOUVER REAL ESTATE NEVER GO DOWN”
23.5″I like it throw it in the blogs right away.
24.5″OK”
25.30″Post a link for boom2″
26.5″ There you go Boom2 acquisition in progress ”
30.5″FINALLY Schdule loop to be run on April 2009″
31.5″END DO AND WHILE SHOW RESULTS SUCCESSFULLY COMPLETED AND SAVED”
January 21st, 2009 at 10:47 am
Re QUATTRO Development in Whalley
( which was destroyed by an arson fire last year).
http://www.journalofcommerce.com/article/id31752
Surrey condominium developer announces move-in date for Quattro 1
Richard Gilbert
staff writer
QUOTE:
The developers of Quattro condominiums in Surrey, B.C. have announced a completion date for one of the buildings damaged by fire in early October.
Charan Sethi, principal of Tien Sher Group of Companies, announced that home owners will tentatively be able to move into their homes at Quattro 1 by March.
The building had about 12 units damaged by water and heat.
It was originally scheduled to open in November.
However, the fate of a building that burnt to the ground is less clear.
Fire destroyed 116 housing units in the four-storey Quattro 2 building.
A crane on the site, which suffered damaged when flames shot into the sky and set the operators box on fire, was dismantled on Oct 20.
Burnt material was removed from the slab a couple of days later and the removal was completed in a couple of weeks.
Structural engineers then assessed the foundation and the parkade.
“This work has been ongoing, but we got a preliminary report last week and are getting the final report from the structural engineer,” said Sethi.
“Once we get the final report we will be able to set a tentative date on Quattro 2 as well.”
Sethi said he will be meeting with the workers, who will fix the parkade, but it depends on the engineers’ report.
“We are working as fast as possible to rebuild this development,” Sethi said.
“At the same time, we are co-operating with investigators and insurance providers to ensure a speedy resolution to this situation.”
The police and fire departments investigation continues.
The $625-million Quattro condominium project in North Whalley is the largest residential and commercial project in Surrey.
====================================================
Millenium and Quattro similar?
In my view…Quatros’ developers are rebuilding the totlay destroyed Quattro 2 phase as a means to not let pre-sale purchasers any easy outs of the sales agreements.
Similarly it has been noted that the COV, with this ill-advised public =private Olympic Village venture…is locked in with Millenium like a Siamese twin, and if Millenium is forced out the pre sales purchasers may have an excuse to bail as well…so Millenium is now a shell/puppett for the COV’s best interests
.
However back to QUATTRO…a while back a VCO poster asked about why peole go to areas like Whalley..and the answer is one has to go to the areas that are more affordable at the time.
However, if Vancouver, the ground zero of lack of affordability gets a major haircut due to the most oversupply, and thus much cheaper than before… one wonders if these areas like Whalley(and developments like QUATTRO) will be able to attract purchasers, given it ain’t got that great a reputation.
My guess is QUATTRO may think its kept its buyers, but my prediction is they are bailing as we speak.
January 21st, 2009 at 10:57 am
Stoxxman: It’s not that easy to walk from a pre-sales. If the city drops Millenium than presales buyers can get out of their contract and not lose any money. If the city keeps Millenium then buyers can still walk, but they lose their deposits and would likely also lose the difference between what they paid and what the current market value is.
Other local developers have already said they will go after presales buyers for the difference between what they agreed to pay and what the current market value is if they try to get out of their contract.
The city knows they can’t get anywhere near what those presales are locked in for, not for the foreseeable future. Holding on to Millenium is the only way they can lock in those that bought presales at the peak of the market.
January 21st, 2009 at 10:58 am
19 kuroame Says:
January 21st, 2009 at 10:35 am
any suggestions on how one would go about outing this?
=========================================================
Sure:
—call the BC Fed.
—call the Media.
—call WorkSafe
—Call TaxMan
—do as stoxxman says ie yell “Immigray !!!”
etc.
Sooner or later this type of story will hit the fan.
Best approach is sooner…but low key…quietly ask the illegals to leave…no need to get the General Public overly pissed off .
The Gov’t already made it easier for foreign workers to work here…if they are here LEGALLY then IMHO they should have the right to continue, that is only fair.
I’m sure we know this goes on with the Mom and Pop size projects as well …, but this Olympic Village one is of a scope that could cause a lot of problems ,protests and delays, and added costs to COV if not checked out.
January 21st, 2009 at 10:59 am
Where did Freako go?
I liked reading freako’s comments as well.
Anybody that have financial blogs they like to recommend?
Considering it is January, foggy, cold, depressed mood out there, there sure a lot of places for sale, do they think they can sell these houses/condos really? And more are waiting to go on the market when the cherry blossoms celebrates the upcoming summer – yes it is coming.
In a way I kind of feel bad for them, but then on the other hand, I know that these “investors” would be rubbing their luck (if it did go up foreeeverr..) in the bears/frugals faces. So, my feelings are ambivalent: feel sorry for them or tell them karma bites greed in the butt.
I will enjoy the blossoms, keep healthy, and live. But not so sure how many others will fare. I guess it is good to be a bear, follow my instinct, in spite of a “civilized” society, it is still the survival of the fittest.
The bubble was too good to be true, dont you think?
January 21st, 2009 at 11:13 am
Mayor Gregors Olympic Village Advisory Group “Dream Team”
“This advisory group will bring valuable expertise and insight as we move forward with the completion of the Olympic Village,” said Mayor Robertson. “We are committed to completing the project on time, as well as acting in the best interests of Vancouver taxpayers. The advisory group will help the City achieve these goals.”
Mayor Robertson will draw on the expertise of 10 volunteer members over the coming months to provide advice on the Olympic Village project. Members of MAGOV are:
Ward S. McAllister, president and CEO, Ledingham McAllister Properties Ltd. (Chair)
Maureen Enser, executive director, Urban Development Institute
Andrew Grant, president PCI Development Corp.
Rob Macdonald, principal, Macdonald Development Corp.
John Mackay, president, Strand Properties Corp.
Eric Martin, vice president, development, Bosa Development
David Negrin, president, Aquilini Development
David Podmore, president and CEO, Concert Properties Ltd.
Al Poettcker, president and CEO, UBC Properties Trust
Peeter Wesik, chairman and owner, WesGroup Income Properties
“On behalf of all 10 volunteer members, we are proud to donate our time and share our expertise to ensure a successful completion of the Olympic Village project,” said Maureen Enser, executive director of the Urban Development Institute (UDI). “Vancouver is a world-class city, and the Olympic Village will be a world-class waterfront and sustainable development. We’re happy to help make that a reality.”
=======================================
I counted the term “World Class” 2 x’s
Wow!
January 21st, 2009 at 11:45 am
Stoxxman:
So for refugess, what’s the alternative to working, collecting welfare? I guess they just can’t win. They’re either “taking our jobs!!” or “welfare bums!!” The thinly veiled racism in your posts ought to be denounced. In that spirit, I’m doing that right here. What a load! How about just sticking to RE topics?
January 21st, 2009 at 11:53 am
Stoxxman:
Now that the COV is in fact lead developer isn’t it a bit strange for them to be continuing to use undocumented labourers? Isn’t that ( gasp) illegal?
Is there no shame.
PS . I was by a site on No.#3 and Granville yesterday and the entire drywall crew was Mexician. So it seems that the
labour issues are ubiquitous. When I was last in Hawaii the drywall guys doing renos in my bldg were all Mexician as well. Just an observation.
Mucho more job losses announced today, ex;
http://www.globeinvestor.com/s.....1/GIStory/
January 21st, 2009 at 12:21 pm
When the shite its the fan, and the writing is on the wall it will…and Big Time , its a natural human reaction to look at the citizens who are here legally versus those who are not.
If you have made Canada your home , either via via born here or immigrated here, you should be givnen first dibs on jobs. If you are a so – called refugee…are you here legally ? What are you an actual refuge of ?
Charity begins at home… and moreso when times are tough.
What sense does it make to turn a blind eye to an illegal alien who undercuts a Canadian citizen who may then end up homeless due to whinny Lefties on the social engineering political -correctness pulpit-tangent?
That is not racism nor “redneck”…mainly due to if the country can’t take care of its own…or enforce its own rules which should be in it’s citizesn own best and better interests, then the “rule of law “no longer applies nor will be respected, and the REAL Rednecks will come out.
Charity begins at Home .
January 21st, 2009 at 12:21 pm
http://www.marketwatch.com/new.....aspx?guid={9FB49E5D-1085-4592-8159-421B05D51CA2}&siteid=yahoomy
January 21st, 2009 at 12:24 pm
NO -LYMPICS:
does that include putting turnstyles on the crime trains? It seems to me that political correctness is the problem not the solution.
January 21st, 2009 at 12:33 pm
great tech layoff blog, is there one for vancouver canada? getting information here is like being a detective, it’s like some big secret, even though thousands are being affected. So why all the secrecy?
http://layoffblog.com/2008/12/.....a-hi-tech/
January 21st, 2009 at 12:36 pm
16000 lay offs at IBM Wow!!!
http://layoffblog.com/2009/01/.....his-month/
January 21st, 2009 at 12:46 pm
30 realpaul Says:
January 21st, 2009 at 12:24 pm
NO -LYMPICS:
does that include putting turnstyles on the crime trains? It seems to me that political correctness is the problem not the solution.
============================================
We can afford to be “liberal” when times are good.
We can’t afford to be “liberal” when times are bad.
We have turned a blind eye to so much bad , we have literally granted it a permit…look out when the shite REALLY hits the fan.
Crime train?
It’ll be even more of a crime train in bad economic times, that is pretty obvious and for a number of reasons.
January 21st, 2009 at 12:50 pm
“It is a mystery why developers will go to great lengths to hack down the tradespeople and then turn around and hand out whopping commissions to “presentation centre agents” who sit in a chair in a sparsely furnished commercial space with gleaming stainless steel appliance package WITH COMMERCIAL GRADE RANGE!”
You only receive a “whopping commission” when you actually sell something, up to that point, most make nothing. When business was good, everyone was making money, trades people and salespeople. Now, most presentation centers are empty and adjacent job sites although have smaller crews, are still working and taking home a paycheck.
I’m not on the side of most developers in this town, don’t get me wrong, as I see them as the “root of all evil” here in the Lower Mainland and what I feel are directly responsible for this RE market mess, what bugs me the most is at what point are they wealthy enough? At what cost to their fellow citizens who at some shape of form helped them to get to where they are now? Most founders have handed down their development business to the next generation and these sons and daughters are now running the show, but do they care about other people, or just carrying on the legacy their fathers have left them and become more wealthy and I guess in turn more successful than them?? I’m not talking about having lots of money, we call this STUPID money. It’s so much, you can’t even dream it. So when you wonder why they are liquidating the <400 units around the Lower Mainland, most of the family are back east now raping the Torontonians. They couldn’t care less about the unsold units here; it was part of the master plan. And they are definitely not going out of business. I’m sure they will welcome the losses
January 21st, 2009 at 12:51 pm
D D D D deflation is here.
http://www.vancouversun.com/Bu.....story.html
OTTAWA — Canada’s big banks, amid warnings of further economic deterioration and below-zero inflation, wasted little time Tuesday in passing on the full measure of the latest interest-rate relief from the Bank of Canada.
….
In the meantime, the Bank of Canada is projecting that inflation this year will fall below zero for two quarters as a result of the plunge in energy prices before eventually moving back up to the central bank’s two per cent target but not until the first half of 2011.
January 21st, 2009 at 1:00 pm
Regarding “refugees”
They ARE collecting welfare. Every refugee collects welfare the day they claim refugee status. Look outside the Sally Anne downtown on most mornings. A van pulls up and a group of espanole jumps in to go to work. Anybody really care to wonder why the homeless have no beds in this Province?
What really chaffs are the dope peddlers. Once charged with an offense they CANNOT be deported until the charges are dealt with in court, and that can take years.
I resent being called racist for stating the facts. My point was very simply was that those without employment staus in this country SHOULD NOT be working on a site funded by taxpayers.
Regarding presales agreements
If a body is paying an extra $100k on their mortgage because they bought stupid high in a resale it makes full sense to walk away from the deposit. Given the state of developers, getting sued shouldn’t concern … most won’t be around in a 12 to 18 months anyways. BC Supreme court actions are years long without even trying to delay and a reasonably intelligent monkey might not need a lawyer for a looooong time.
Regarding Millenieum
These condos need to be built to a less than “luxury” standard, period. Where are 500 millionaires going to come from? Millenieum is less than a bit player now and their continued mismangement is doing far more harm than good. I can’t even imagine what their role is supposed to be now anyways. It certainly ain’t developer or financier.
January 21st, 2009 at 1:27 pm
Anybody else seeing a flood of new listings on MLS? I’m guessing many aren’t actually new, they’re probably relists from year end expirys, but WOW! People don’t seem to be waiting for spring.
The funny thing is all the teardowns listed just above half-million. Guess they didn’t get the memo. Hope springs eternal!
January 21st, 2009 at 1:30 pm
“Hate to be sounding like a flaming prejudiced Archie Bunker but the facts are what they are, and its absolutely no secret in the business. ”
“In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. ” – Orwell
January 21st, 2009 at 1:45 pm
Long time lurker, first time poster.
Does anyone have a theory on how this will affect the rental market? From my own observations, rental units are still horribly overpriced (the Rise, South Granville Lofts… etc). Will this flood of new inventory help ease the pain of rental units??
January 21st, 2009 at 1:45 pm
Just curious:
Bob Rennie apparently gets a flat fee of $50,000 for the Millenium Olympic Village condo his company “sells”.
They have “Pre-sold” over 200 of these.
What money would Rennie be guaranteed , if any? ie if the pre -sales do NOT complete and instead decide to bail on their deposit.
Is Rennie SOL …..or does he get a cut from the leftovers aka percentage of the forfeited deposit.
January 21st, 2009 at 1:47 pm
ergopolis:Your link doesn’t work maybe you mean http://www.marketwatch.com
January 21st, 2009 at 1:52 pm
39 _KC Says:
January 21st, 2009 at 1:45 pm
Long time lurker, first time poster.
Does anyone have a theory on how this will affect the rental market? From my own observations, rental units are still horribly overpriced (the Rise, South Granville Lofts… etc). Will this flood of new inventory help ease the pain of rental units??
=====================================================
IMHO…those landlords in stubborn mode/denial will be SOL.
There is a limited number of renters…and an increasing oversupply of units. The smart landlords who appreciate the true market facts will start the cherry -picking now ASAP for the best tenants and keep them happy.
My advice (and speaking from a family that has been landlords for over 40 years ) is ask a bit less than the market price…don’t get greedy…and you will have a much lower vacancy rate.
January 21st, 2009 at 2:14 pm
Regarding the MAC/Onni condo fire sale.
Appears genius marketing dopes finally figured out that the initial breathlessly spewed figure of $ 350m “worth” of condos when there are 375 of em doesn’t make any sense unless buyers are forking out $ 940,000 each. Those clever monkeys almost fooled us all eh?
Newly revised figure is $ 150m “worth” of condos. Dopes.
January 21st, 2009 at 2:17 pm
Stoxxman:
About your “facts” – how about something to back them up, other than van-sightings and dubious personal acnecdotes?
Sure, an employer should not hire anyone without a valid work permit. And refugees are not, as far as I know, permitted to work. Nevertheless, the point you appear to state is that refugees, and others not permitted to work , are working on major construction projects in Vancouver en masse. However, as mentioned, you provide no proof to support your controversial allegations.
EB: That’s an ironic reference to Orwell, given that what may be deceitful here is espousing unfounded conclusions (which some here have no qualms parroting, sadly) regarding Latino refugees and the “threat” they pose to the livelihood of construction workers who work here legally.
January 21st, 2009 at 2:27 pm
Regarding Millenieum
A body has really got to wonder what kind of message is being sent to existing and potential MW buyers (aka speculators/bag holders) Its very much like …
“A HA sucker, we’ve got you now and you aren’t getting out of this terrible contract. We’re gonna keep our krappy broke developer so that you are screwed for tens of thousands.”
Kind of a hard sell now for new buyers to join this club o’ fools ain’t it?
January 21st, 2009 at 2:28 pm
elise:
these are all the specuvestor ( second) houses AND builders inventory, these guys were slow but I guess they’re not all stupid enough to realise that the ship is sinking, what you’re seeing is the rats jumping into the sea. When the really stupid ones get a whiff of reality , (and that includes the off shore holders) , and losses pile up and hope is lost in the news headlines of food lines and growing unemployment, then the real rush to list the dogs will accelerate, it happened just that way in the 80′s. The result was that nothing sold for a long long time. I remember we called it ‘the bitter winter of 83-84. Buisness just went dead.
January 21st, 2009 at 2:31 pm
_KC:
I saw a girl interviewed on Global who said that she made a successful lower offer. Plenty of inventory piling up.
January 21st, 2009 at 2:38 pm
Regarding refugees and “my facts”
I have been a site superintendent for about 4 years and a tradesman carpenter for many years before that. This background includes work at Millenieum Water 4 and a very brief stint with Onni Construction.
I would not be able to count the number of sites I have been on. Virtually every one had foreign workers to some degree or another. I have also run painting crews, and was driven out of business 5 years ago by espanol sub contractors who can pay their illegal workers far less than any Canadian would or could accept.
My facts come from many years of personal experience. If you doubt the truth of it you could stake out the Sally Anne and follow the large number of “refugees” who leave for work tomorrow morning.
Report back on where they are working. That would be a real service to taxpayers in this Province who are stuck paying “refugees” welfare for years.
January 21st, 2009 at 2:43 pm
“PS . I was by a site on No.#3 and Granville yesterday and the entire drywall crew was Mexician. So it seems that the
labour issues are ubiquitous. When I was last in Hawaii the drywall guys doing renos in my bldg were all Mexician as well. Just an observation.
Mucho more job losses announced today, ex;”
Tienes muchas problemas con Mexicanas? Nos ciudad es multiculturales. If you don’t like it, beat it kid.
January 21st, 2009 at 2:43 pm
Anonymous:
I think the site had a fart, sorry anyway
Yes, thats a good page
http://www.marketwatch.com/Def.....iteid=mktw
I see it referances 5000 layoffs at Ericsson, 4000 layoffs at Motorola, 2000 at Sony. This wave just keepes getting bigger, when it breaks it’s really gonna be ugly. When EI runs out on all these millions of unemployed it will really get wild.
January 21st, 2009 at 2:47 pm
Supraboy:
as allways Supersillyboy misses the point. Soopie, maybe lay off the constant masturbation.
January 21st, 2009 at 2:51 pm
#27
“PS . I was by a site on No.#3 and Granville yesterday and the entire drywall crew was Mexician.”
I got three words for you, hijo de puta!
January 21st, 2009 at 2:53 pm
The point I have for you is that you better get used to seeing mexicans and latin americans. They’re immigrating here in waves.
Better pick up some chinese or spanish or be side swiped by employers.
January 21st, 2009 at 3:01 pm
“If you don’t like it, beat it kid.”
Right. the guy who still plays with marvel action figures is calling other people “kid”.
January 21st, 2009 at 3:02 pm
more digging more tech layoff news
http://www.itjungle.com/tfh/tfh011209-story02.html
Microsoft 15000
Unisys 1300
Hewlett – Packard 25000
Sun Micro systems 6000
It seems that tech is getting pounded in the lead up to the recession.
January 21st, 2009 at 3:04 pm
Anonymous:
nobody takes this asshole seriously. he/she/it is obviously a mental masturbator without having ever said anything of any relevance.
January 21st, 2009 at 3:09 pm
realpaul:
Add this to your collection. United Tech is is layoff mode.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/f.....A965958260
January 21st, 2009 at 3:10 pm
“That’s an ironic reference to Orwell, given that what may be deceitful here is espousing unfounded conclusions (which some here have no qualms parroting, sadly) regarding Latino refugees and the “threat” they pose to the livelihood of construction workers who work here legally.”
Orwell was specifically worried about both socialism and the domination of dogmatically “correct” dialog over reality. I’d call it apropos.
January 21st, 2009 at 3:11 pm
The rules for “refugees” in Canada are a joke and that is why when one gets on the system they quickly bring their many friends and family to enjoy the wealth too.
For example. A BC resident has a 2 week waiting period to receive welfare. Much better to be a “refugee”, you’ll get a cheque instantly, along with free room and board too.
So. Over time “refugees” dominate the unskilled and semi-skilled construction trades and nobody complains about it when times are good.
Well times they ain’t so frikkin good. Why are taxpayers still supporting “refugees” whose only purpose here is to take work away from Canadians illegally and scam the system as much as possible before eventually being deported because their “refugee” claims are bogus?
January 21st, 2009 at 3:15 pm
Sidelines: “However, as mentioned, you provide no proof to support your controversial allegations.”
Regarding illegal workers, if you have lived in Vancouver for the past 50 years, illegal workers are what developers have depended on to bring down costs on a project or simply fill the void duing a time of high employment.
Before the Hispanic workers, most sites had East Asian workers, and before that Asian, and so on and so on. This is historical fact, no need to provide proof on this blog.
Just ask anyone older than you and they’ll tell ya.
January 21st, 2009 at 3:19 pm
Piddlesbby:
they’ll be joined by 2000 Air Canada workers who got lated off this morning
http://blog.macleans.ca/2008/0.....#more-2112
January 21st, 2009 at 3:19 pm
Stoxxman:
the initial breathlessly spewed figure of $ 350m “worth” of condos
…
Newly revised figure is $ 150m “worth” of condos.
Wow! Markets falling faster than I thought!
January 21st, 2009 at 3:23 pm
Hey..who said VCI ain’t educational?
I am learning lots of Espanhole
Now “hágase humo, vuele de aquí” OK you “idiota, estúpido, tarado”
January 21st, 2009 at 3:24 pm
Can someone explain this cryptic website:
http://www.macbulk.com
Is this the same as Onni, or some new monster? I hear about three commercials a day for it on the radio.
January 21st, 2009 at 3:25 pm
Regarding “refugees”
41,900 refugee claims are now pending in Canada. They take at least a year to resolve and much longer if appealed. In 2005 12,000 people made the cut, implying 3 out of 4 refugee claims are bogus.
http://www.irb-cisr.gc.ca/en/m.....acts_e.htm
This is a MAJOR problem, and one that will become even more outrageous as the economy sewers.
January 21st, 2009 at 3:26 pm
realpaul: Dude, check dates before posting. That article was from June 17th, 2008. Things are bad enough in the economy with lots of layoffs. No need to exaggerate.
January 21st, 2009 at 3:29 pm
Bubble Lad: Wow. weird one. I think some BC politicians should really pre-register for that, they seem to be on the lookout for speculative real estate deals. Why limit taxpayer money only to owe-lympic related construction?
January 21st, 2009 at 3:30 pm
Sorry about the last post – answered my own question at Condohype.
January 21st, 2009 at 3:42 pm
Has anyone else heard those strange commercials on the radio by (I think) the BC Business Council – people reading in an unnerving monotone some PR release about how great the BC economy is? Talk about amateur hour.
January 21st, 2009 at 3:48 pm
Re Millenium:
If not mistaken all the cheaper units were sold, leaving the more expensive units UNsold.
If they couldn’t sell the more expensive Millenium “Olympic Village” condos THEN, before the crash..what do they think will happen now?
Do they have a Plan B to cut the overhead , cut back on the frills, and perhaps cater to the mainstream clientele? .
—-Or could they if they wanted to , but they still insist that Wealthy buyers will crawl out from under a gold -plated rock?
Even the odd rich “sucker” won’t feel comfortable living in a 90 % vacant “Olympic” mausoluem and paying the lions share of the strata fees.
January 21st, 2009 at 3:54 pm
“Olympic mausoluem” – that’s a great mental image. Fits well with the overwhelming Stalinist feeling of the huge, featureless complex.
January 21st, 2009 at 3:55 pm
Sarting price in the 2 buildings that make up Millenieum Water 4 was $ 1.1m with the penthouses going for $ 5.4m.
I’m STILL wondering how the hell the inside work can be proceeding. Where the fork is all the glass? Top 2 floors on MW 4 are boarded over and there isn’t a completely sealed envelope on that site yet.
January 21st, 2009 at 3:56 pm
My co-worker finally got his first offer. He listed in August for exactly his assessed value, and has since reduced to 18% below assessment. The offer came in 22% below his asking price, so he immediately rejected it. The same person then followed up with an offer 14% below asking. Still, he rejected it.
Part of me thinks he should’ve tried to negotiate the 14% below down to 10% and taken it. At 10% he’ll still make a 50% return! But instead he’s upset that he could’ve had a 100% return had he sold earlier this year (some of his neighbors sold in Spring for his original asking price). Good for his neighbors, but seriously sucks for those that bought and are now watching my co-worker sell his unit for a huge discount.
Now he’s talking about moving back in to the property if he can’t sell it in the next couple of months. Human psychology is so fascinating. I remember at his original list price he would’ve refused an offer 3% below! Now after many reductions he’s willing to accept 7% below.
Hopefully he gets an offer that fits his criteria and gets it sold, otherwise 2 months from now I can see him reducing it another 10%… rinse and repeat..
January 21st, 2009 at 3:58 pm
Man:
You have to think the Food Banks must be getting overwhelmed by now.
I wonder how they are coping ?
January 21st, 2009 at 3:58 pm
ergopolis: Market Watch main page is green on the top and on the right,links are also green.Is there any lesson for bears to learn? I think Obama is a president? Who woulda hava thinka of it i mean if he is teaching some lesson through the green headlines?.What was topic for this thread again?.Oh yeah,Nobody saw it coming.
Did You?
January 21st, 2009 at 4:00 pm
Piddlesbby:
“This is historical fact, no need to provide proof on this blog.”
How about this: you’re wrong, no need to provide proof on this blog.
Whew, this kind of debating’s easy! Weee!!
January 21st, 2009 at 4:05 pm
2 Stoxxman Says:
January 21st, 2009 at 3:55 pm
Sarting price in the 2 buildings that make up Millenieum Water 4 was $ 1.1m with the penthouses going for $ 5.4m.
I’m STILL wondering how the hell the inside work can be proceeding. Where the fork is all the glass? Top 2 floors on MW 4 are boarded over and there isn’t a completely sealed envelope on that site yet.
==============================================
Simple:
Whenever you get Gov’t at any level involved in something like this , it will end up a Royal f*ck- up
However :
…..if its now a contingency plan based on a drop dead deadline you have a SUPER SIZED Royal f*ck -up in the making .
January 21st, 2009 at 4:41 pm
No Glass = No Mas
The Millenieum PM let slip about the non appearance of the Korean glass. Look around that site and there are holes EVERYWHERE.
I have absolutely NO IDEA how to finish a hirise when you DON’T have a building envelope completed first. Are you REALLY going to send in the boarders and tapers when the interior is completely filled with moisture and open to the elements?
Only other alternative is to board and seal every opening then ripping it out when the glass arrives.
January 21st, 2009 at 4:41 pm
What I find quite interesting nowadays, is how “quiet” people are in workplaces and in social settings about the housing downturn. Interestingly enough, the topic is rarely even mentioned.
ESPECIALLY the people who have owned for awhile. They were cooing with delight when things were on the way up, but now? SSShhh!
January 21st, 2009 at 4:52 pm
ted:
must have ‘clicked ‘ on the wrong artice. i hope this is the current one.
http://www.nationalpost.com/re.....id=1178109
while looking for this I see that Nortel may be moving towards Chapter 9 bankruptcy which will wipe out the company standard pensions of current and past employees and reduce benefits to all, eliminating some. what a mess.
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/L.....story.html
Ted, I really think that a lot of people are walking around in a daze and this information has to be diseminated to the general public. The press isn’t interested, there are people still buying condos and then ending up on the news yapping about how unfair it is that the market has ‘suddenly’ gone down. We hear stories about people getting screwed everyday it seems. I have allways thought that people should be better informed but have never taken the time to say so, until now.
It may be that many people choose not to keep themselves informed but I really think there is a great deal of mis information that should be ‘outed’ The unemployment crash is at the nexus of the ongoing real estate crash and if people get to understand how many people are losing thier jobs every day , then maybe they would understand the corelation between jobs and a crashing real estate market.
I hear on the TV from the bitches , sluts and liars of the real estate biz that everything is OK and unfortunatley people are still getting sucked. If VCI was mandatory reading we would have a lot fewer suckers. I don’t post job loss figures because I enjoy seeing people lose thier jobs. I hate to see good people getting suckered by the likes of the villians oft mentioned on this forum.
Thanks for bringing my oversight to my attention though.
January 21st, 2009 at 4:52 pm
Back to the topic: The blogging industry is in a crisis and desperately need a bailout! I think pope and most posters here agree that VCI should be consider “too big to fail”. Let’s jump on the Olympic bailout wagon.
January 21st, 2009 at 4:56 pm
Stoxxman:
The vacumn created would suck the moisture out of the wood and still fuck up the drywall bigtime and the tape would peel off anyway. The bldg would have to be heated if sealed in the way you suggest , I theeeeenk.
January 21st, 2009 at 5:11 pm
NO -LYMPICS:
I thought you’d like this article
Q-if all these Brits ( read europeans& asians , aussies, yanks etc generally are going through a major downturn, losing savings, investments and mass declines in house prices, not to mention the BP going down the toilet, what will be the incentive for them to come to vanc for the olympics? If thier broke, even a free ticket into an event won’t be worth the paper it’s printed on if they can’t afford to travel. I think there will be an avalanche of tickets on EBAY. Who’s gonna buy them that s the question
http://www.vancouversun.com//O.....story.html
January 21st, 2009 at 5:28 pm
COV has no lending facility lined up. It has to continue to fund project out of city revenue through Feb. Seeks ‘less risky’ CDN lender. Fortress wn’t extend it’s original loan amount. It just gets better by the day. LOLOLOLOLOLOL
http://www.vancouversun.com/Va.....story.html
January 21st, 2009 at 5:41 pm
400 more layoffs in western canada
http://business.theglobeandmai.....iness/home
January 21st, 2009 at 5:43 pm
Intel lays off 6000
http://www.theglobeandmail.com.....ology/home
January 21st, 2009 at 5:48 pm
1700 layoff at Advanced Micro Devices confirmed along with 20% paycuts
http://www.theinquirer.net/inq.....ts-layoffs
January 21st, 2009 at 6:02 pm
!0,000 more lay offs
BT Group [BT 18.79 -0.19 (-1%) ], the UK telecommunications firm, will cut 10,000 jobs, or 6.3% of its global work force, inthe first quarter of 2009.
These are just the tech job losses that don’t make it into our local rags, apparently finance, mortgages etc are also being decimated.
We all know that fisheries , forestry and mining jobs numbers are getting bleaker by the day. have our local papers just gotten bored with the fate of these poor schmucks?
Do you know of any labour issues that aren’t getting reported. Who got laid off in your buisness recently?
Go Go Olympics, I guess it’s more important to keep us gleefull and smiling like idiots.
January 21st, 2009 at 6:07 pm
Richmond News :
Flo ignites fire sale
Buyers camp out for condo liquidation
http://www.canada.com/richmond.....1d6159e34b
QUOTE:
The sale didn’t begin until 5 p.m. Monday. At 1 p.m., a 25-strong line was snaking along the sidewalk as sales staff hurriedly arranged tables and ropes next to patio heaters, where they expected the throng to gather.
By 5 p.m., more than 100 people were eagerly waiting their turn to snap up a $360,000 bargain.
First in the lineup was a tired-looking Zena Zuo and her parents, all from Vancouver.
“I’ve been here since 9:30 p.m. last night (Monday) with my parents,” she laughed.
She set up folding chairs to spend the night in, but ended up sleeping in her car.
“It was too cold to stay outside. But our chairs were there to keep our place. I think it’s worth it.”
The man sitting second in line, huddled in a blanket, arrived Sunday night five minutes after Zuo. “I’m hoping to get a good deal,” he said.
Farther down the line, a trio of realtors was standing in line on behalf of clients.
“We need the business,” Jeanette Vetter, of Dexter Associates Realty, said.
“But I didn’t realize it was going to be this cold. It’s not that uncommon for us to do this, though.”
Shortly after 7:30 p.m., all 55 apartments had been sold.
============================
So:
Let me get this straight
Sale lasted 2 1/2 hours, sold 55 units:
Did anyone even kick the tires ?
PS Supraboy: do you think they got a bargain?
January 21st, 2009 at 6:25 pm
Games tainted: organizers
The City of Vancouver planned to sell some of the 1,100 condos following the Olympics to recoup its investment, but the worldwide recession has caused housing prices to drop.
While the Vancouver Organizing Committee, known as VANOC, has repeatedly said the village’s problems rest with the municipality, its executive vice-president in charge of marketing and sponsorship acknowledged Tuesday that the problems are tainting the Games as a whole.
“When you hear the words Olympic bailout, people assume that these are costs that are being spent because of the Games, which is simply not the case,” Dave Cobb maintained.
“If the village, for example, … makes $200 million, I don’t think people are going to be saying that’s Olympic profit and contributing it to us.”
January 21st, 2009 at 6:39 pm
Did anyone catch the Global TV 6 PM news?
Old Jack Poole’s nose must be growing in a delayed reaction.
Feels these units will be snapped by groups like Pension Funds ?
The standard kool – aid mantra is this is the last prime waterfront real estate left ?
Propoganda in overdrive.
Sad that a guy once in the same business has either gone senile or been forced to lie.
January 21st, 2009 at 6:48 pm
unemployment climbs for 11th straight month in Britian, now over 2 million
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Ho....._Due_Later
United Airlines cuts an additional 100 jobs on top of the previous 1500 layoffs in the 3rd quarter ’08.
http://www.wcpo.com/business/s.....OV8UA.cspx
January 21st, 2009 at 6:49 pm
realpaul:
sorry thats 1000 ( one thousand jobs) at UAL
January 21st, 2009 at 6:53 pm
Post 83 realpaul
It will be interesting to watch.
Myself, I am becoming conditioned to cringe when the word “Olympics” is mentioned.
There has NOT been any Olympics that have made a profit. People mention that LA Olympics in 1984 did . However they were only profitable(or is it broke even?) because they already had much of the infrastructure they needed. …..plus they really went big time with corporate sponsorship. That 1984 Olympics alleged success probably sucked in a lot of future “Olympic sucker” hosts.
I knew the Olympics would lose money, but the shite that hit the fan for COV is truly unbelievable.
Wouldn’t be surprised if we see lots of Olympic event tickets show up for sale…and in the next few months my guess is we will see hotels etc. crying the “2010 blues” with cancelled reservations or lack thereof. Didn’t VANOC put a lock on a lot of local hotel rooms?
2010 could easily become the greatest Olympic bust in history.
January 21st, 2009 at 7:15 pm
on an earlier string there was some questions going back and forth about capital gains tax emeptions and holding periods on new construction. No one seemed to know the ‘real deal’. I hope this helps.
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pub.....#P92_14422
January 21st, 2009 at 7:17 pm
patriotz said: And a global asset bubble like the housing bubble can only happen with the connivance of governments and central banks, which is a form of central planning in itself.
What you say makes a lot of sense. But if you listen to what economists say, and surely they know a little something about this, they keep on arguing for lower interest rates and more credit. Most people in their gut know this isn’t right, but how does one argue with nobel prize winners, and how does one ignore that 4.25% mortgage rate and friends/family/baristas urging/ridiculing you to buy at nonsensical prices?
I think the discrepancy is in what the objective is. Most economists measure progress on the basis of a few narrow indicators like GDP and employment and their whole theories are meant to improve performance on these indicators, which may or may not be correct.
For example, I read this from somewhere: if you and your neighbor pay each other $100 to dig up a hole and then cover it up, the economy benefits because two jobs were created and GDP increased by $200. The government benefits from the taxes collected. Everyone is happy. So if lowering interest rates and enough credit allows people to do this, then that is good economic policy.
But of course this is ridiculous because digging up the hole and covering it is not a valuable economic activity in any reasonable sense. So where is the flaw in the economists’ analysis?
You could say this is fine because then if your economy is based on digging and covering up holes, eventually it collapses and people have to switch to growing food for instance or else everyone starves. In the meantime, many people have to stave before people learn the lesson because they don’t listen to reason, but they listen to hype and greed.
Paul Krugman refers to economics as a dismal science. I think it will remain that way until it can suggest good policy which will prevent people from learning the lessons the hard way over and over again.
The major flaw I see is that most economists only seem to only care about GDP and employment. For instance, had they also considered the net worth of its citizens as something to monitor, they might have realized giving out too much easy credit might increase GDP and employment but only by creating a nation of consumers in debt.
So it seems to me their theories are incomplete in what they are trying to achieve and model.
Another problem is the practice in accounting of including assets whose price depends on a market price. Some mechanism needs to be introduced whereby such assets are flagged and their role in determining net worth and further borrowing is only considered with a diminished role. Not sure exactly how, but surely this is something they should be thinking about if they want to prevent the bubble/crash cycle.
Maybe the right thing to do is to only ever value an asset at the average of its estimated fundamental price and its current market price as standard accounting practice so when it comes to determining net worth or further borrowing, the bubble doesn’t feed itself as much.
January 21st, 2009 at 7:18 pm
“And a global asset bubble like the housing bubble can only happen with the connivance of governments and central banks, which is a form of central planning in itself.”
What you say makes a lot of sense. But if you listen to what economists say, and surely they know a little something about this, they keep on arguing for lower interest rates and more credit. Most people in their gut know this isn’t right, but how does one argue with nobel prize winners, and how does one ignore that 4.25% mortgage rate and friends/family/baristas urging/ridiculing you to buy at nonsensical prices?
I think the discrepancy is in what the objective is. Most economists measure progress on the basis of a few narrow indicators like GDP and employment and their whole theories are meant to improve performance on these indicators, which may or may not be correct.
For example, I read this from somewhere: if you and your neighbor pay each other $100 to dig up a hole and then cover it up, the economy benefits because two jobs were created and GDP increased by $200. The government benefits from the taxes collected. Everyone is happy. So if lowering interest rates and enough credit allows people to do this, then that is good economic policy.
But of course this is ridiculous because digging up the hole and covering it is not a valuable economic activity in any reasonable sense. So where is the flaw in the economists’ analysis?
You could say this is fine because then if your economy is based on digging and covering up holes, eventually it collapses and people have to switch to growing food for instance or else everyone starves. In the meantime, many people have to stave before people learn the lesson because they don’t listen to reason, but they listen to hype and greed.
Paul Krugman refers to economics as a dismal science. I think it will remain that way until it can suggest good policy which will prevent people from learning the lessons the hard way over and over again.
One major flaw I see right away is that most economists only seem to only care about GDP and employment. For instance, had they also considered the net worth of its citizens as something to monitor, they might have realized giving out too much easy credit might increase GDP and employment but only by creating a nation of consumers in debt.
So it seems to me their theories are incomplete in what they are trying to achieve and model.
Another problem is the practice in accounting of including assets whose price depends on a market price. Some mechanism needs to be introduced whereby such assets are flagged and their role in determining net worth and further borrowing is only considered with a diminished role. Not sure exactly how, but surely this is something they should be thinking about if they want to prevent the bubble/crash cycle.
Maybe the right thing to do is to only ever value an asset at the average of its estimated fundamental price and its current market price as standard accounting practice so when it comes to determining net worth or further borrowing, the bubble doesn’t feed itself as much.
January 21st, 2009 at 7:19 pm
Had a bit of a problem posting for some reason so I used a different name for post 96.
January 21st, 2009 at 7:39 pm
observer:
I think you’re on the right track, both the tech bubble bust reflation and the real estate bubble inflation were coordinated by G-7 governments in what is now being referred to as “the failed experiment”. It is now looking highly likely that a global coordinated deflation is being used to reset asset and commodity prices. Sort of a ‘setting the clock back’ without having to apply any of the basic economic principals. IMHO the superinflationary effects of juicing the world with excess low intrest cash will just create another bubble. It’s just a matter of time. Personally I think it will be an infrastructure bubble, that should be good for commodities.
Meanwhile, all thats just idle speculation. I see that two of the worlds smartest economies are projecting contraction of 5% GDP over the course of 2009. Our government is telling us that Canada will contract only 1.3% . I’m going to side with the smart guys.
http://www.google.com/hostedne.....wD95RC3N00
January 21st, 2009 at 8:35 pm
Stoxxman:
41,900 refugee claims are now pending in Canada…In 2005 12,000 people made the cut
This is a MAJOR problem
In other words, the pending refugee claimants amount to just over one tenth of one percent of the Canadian population, and the accepted claims each year amount to .04% of the Canadian population.
Compare that to about 200,000 legal immigrants accepted each year.
If you think that’s a major problem, why don’t you ask your role models in the Reform party to do something about it. They’re running the country now you know.
There is also another solution to employers using unskilled and/or illegal workers to undercut the wages of skilled workers. It’s called “unions”.
January 21st, 2009 at 8:38 pm
Yeah:
And how come NASCAR drivers are 100% White :
Obama will fix that !
January 21st, 2009 at 9:13 pm
FROM The U.K.
Government forced to bail out major Olympic projectsMinisters raid £461m from contingency fund to keep construction of athlete village and media centre on track
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2.....ng-bailout
QUOTE:
The government today revealed it would have to raid its London 2012 contingency fund for £461m to pay for the ongoing construction of the athletes village and the international media centre, after private sector investment dried up.
The Olympics minister, Tessa Jowell, also announced that the media centre – due to form a major part of the legacy from the games – would not be downgraded to a temporary building. But she admitted it would have to be entirely funded from the public purse.
Ministers and 2012 organisers had prepared the ground for today’s decision by revealing that private-sector interest in the £1bn Olympic village and media centre had all but evaporated. The developer Lend Lease was to build 3,000 flats that would be sold on after the games, but those plans were hit by the collapse of the property market.
Despite reducing the number of flats by around 1,000, the developer has been struggling to find any takers, requiring the government to sanction the use of £326m from the fund to keep work going while talks continue.
The Olympic Delivery Authority will continue discussions with Lend Lease and with banks in the hope of reaching an agreement by March. There will also be an increased affordable housing element, with a third of the flats now set to be allocated for that purpose.
============
Hmm
Where hav eI heard this before?
Oh yeah
World clASS city in an old British colony.
cc
Jack Poole
Bob Rennie
etc.
January 21st, 2009 at 9:33 pm
Stoxxman:
“Regarding “refugees”
41,900 refugee claims are now pending in Canada. They take at least a year to resolve and much longer if appealed. In 2005 12,000 people made the cut, implying 3 out of 4 refugee claims are bogus.”
==============================================================
Actually, it does NOT logically follow that 3/4 are bogus. It simply means that the “judge” has declared them to not be in sufficient danger to be given refuge by Canada.
Who are these “judges” you ask? Well, they are ordinary people like you and I. And I’ll bet you thought they had some sort of law degree or some kind of expertise. Nope. Used car salesman will do… makes for a nice political appointment, doesn’t it?
http://www.irb-cisr.gc.ca/en/a.....ndex_e.htm
“There, but for the Grace of God, go I….”
You should just be happy you are not one of these refugee claimants, Stoxxman. If you were to appreciate your luck in being Canadian born you might be a wee bit happier.
As they say, “Walk a mile in my shoes”.
January 21st, 2009 at 9:37 pm
Flu-fix firm offers up cold cash as sponsor
http://www.theglobeandmail.com...../National/
QUOTE:
RICHMOND — The 2010 Winter Olympics now have an official cold and flu remedy, and it’s not chicken soup.
Instead, it’s the high-profile natural medicine, Cold-fX, announced as an official Olympic supplier yesterday to a gathering of wheezing journalists, who were offered plenty of free samples to ease their ills.
There were no claims, however, that the controversial product hawked on television by Don Cherry would cure any of the economic ailments currently besetting the Olympic village.
===========
Don Cherry?
I’m in !
January 21st, 2009 at 9:52 pm
Whistler Olympic village secures attractive interest rate
http://www.vancouversun.com/Wh.....story.html
January 21st, 2009 at 10:06 pm
Vancouver closer to taking over Olympic village
http://www.theglobeandmail.com...../National/
QUOTE:
“When you hear the words ‘Olympic bailout,’ people assume that these are costs that are being spent because of the Games, which is simply not the case,” Mr. Cobb said. “If the village ends up making $200-million, people aren’t going to say that’s a profit because of the Olympics, so I think there’s a real imbalance in the perceptions of these projects. ”
WTF?:
Greater weasel words methinks I have naught heard in a fortnight !
January 21st, 2009 at 10:09 pm
This Saturday, the Shangri-la will open its doors at Georgia and Thurlow downtown.At 62 storeys and 646 feet, it is the tallest building in Vancouver, 146 feet higher than the previous champ, the Wall Centre.views
January 21st, 2009 at 10:16 pm
sunny source:
When you borrow money from yourself thats not really
” achieving an attractive rate ” is it? That story is spun so much it will probably twirl until the end of days. The good old taxpayer is exceedingly generous and gullible, because we’re ‘world class’ wannabe’s.
I have to wonder though that had the governments been so happily willing to borrow and lend amongst themselves how many books would have reached the classrooms, how many new schools, student computers, student loan relief schemes, hospitals, homeless shelters, affordable housing, bridges and roads , income tax relief programs etc etc that the excess monies could have been spent on instead of blowing the wad on a two week party.
But you say, ” we built buildings and they’ll be a legacy”, to which I would have replied ” building schools and hospitals are man hour intensive too”.
And we could go down the entire list and see that we have allready built all the athletes facilities the number of Canadian atheletes can ever use in Calgary. It seems that Vancouver/BC has spent billions on building unnessescary infrastructure which could have been better utilized as public buildings projects like new hospitals, real transit instead of this rediculous skytrain and universities.
We could have afforded a bridge to Vancouver Island as well, I mean if the Newfies can build Confederation Bridge what the hell is wrong with us? Getting rid of these antiquated ferries might make us think about becoming world class, we’d have a world class product , but no, we have a big fat elaphent sitting in the lawn and no one knows how it’s going to be fed and housed.
Yes the generous and gullible taxpayer, a great big pat on each others backs for another screwed up boondoggle. And now there isn’t any money left to build schools, hospitals, highways , bridges, universities etc etc., we really look like a bunch of fucking inbred rubes.
January 21st, 2009 at 10:17 pm
41,900 refugee claims are now pending in Canada. They take at least a year to resolve and much longer if appealed. In 2005 12,000 people made the cut, implying 3 out of 4 refugee claims are bogus.”
Well no it doesn’t, because the number of pending claims and the number of claims processed in a year are two different things. Stock and flow, you know.
That said, I disagree with Lily Pad. I don’t think any significant number of genuine claimants are being refused. There is always a good sized group of people who try to use the refugee process to get into Canada when they would be ineligible to get in as legal immigrants, which varies by source country over the years. My favourite was an influx of Jews from Israel in the 90′s claiming persecution. No I’m not kidding. More recently it has been Latin Americans claiming to be gay. And so on.
That’s not to say that the current system doesn’t need improvement. The size of the backlog alone speaks to that. It’s the duty of the government to set up a fair and efficient refugee processing system:
http://www.ccrweb.ca/documents/claimsfacts07.htm
January 21st, 2009 at 10:35 pm
patriotz: “I don’t think any significant number of genuine claimants are being refused.”
==============================================================
Evidence, please?
January 21st, 2009 at 10:36 pm
Engineers, analysts , tech and experts of every kind lose jobs in a lay off of this magnitude.
http://www.globeinvestor.com/s.....1/GIStory/
When these giant projects go down they take years to start back up and so the economic disruption of major industry players shutting down is huge. Guaranteed many of the effected are Canadian specialists.
January 21st, 2009 at 10:53 pm
BC personal banruptcies ‘skyrocket’, hmmmm that can’t be good for buisness
http://www.vancouversun.com/bu.....story.html
January 21st, 2009 at 11:01 pm
Evidence, please?
You have to show us evidence of genuine claimants being refused. If you claim something is happening, the onus is on you to prove it. Not on the person who claims something isn’t happening.
Do you have any examples of rejected refugee claimants facing retribution after being returned to their country of origin?
January 21st, 2009 at 11:47 pm
patriotz: You might find this site a good place to start.
http://www.cpj.ca/content/safe.....ees-canada
There is so much criticism of the immigration system it’s not even funny.
January 22nd, 2009 at 12:01 am
“June 2006: VancouverCondo.Info – Hey that’s us right here!”
I believe VancouverCondo.info start around Jan or Feb,2006 Nope?
January 22nd, 2009 at 12:11 am
“more digging more tech layoff news
http://www.itjungle.com/tfh/tfh011209-story02.html
Microsoft 15000
Unisys 1300
Hewlett – Packard 25000
Sun Micro systems 6000″
RealPaul, those are only rumors, don’t read too much into it till it happens.
January 22nd, 2009 at 12:13 am
#89
“Let me get this straight
Sale lasted 2 1/2 hours, sold 55 units:
Did anyone even kick the tires ?
PS Supraboy: do you think they got a bargain?”
As much of an a** that I am here, I think those people are idiots buying those junk units by Onni. The granite they used on the kitchen tops aren’t even half inch thick.
This begs the question, where do these people come out with all that money to buy those condos?
January 22nd, 2009 at 1:13 am
Sun Microsystems: 6000 is already in motion …. this was announced last month by Sun.
January 22nd, 2009 at 1:17 am
HPs EDS, Sun and Unisys are all confirmed, thanks for posting the link on the details supraboy, not sure how you thought they were all rumours. MS is the only non-confirmed … but news will come out any day on MS plans.
” it is also being rumored that Microsoft is planning to fire 15,000 employees this month; about 17 percent of its workforce. That’s a much bigger hit. Server maker and services provider Unisys just announced 1,300 layoffs, about 5 percent of its workforce. Hewlett-Packard announced last fall that as part of its acquisition of services giant Electronic Data Systems, the company would be cutting 25,000 jobs over two years, or about 7 percent of its global workforce; you can bet a lot of those job cuts have nothing to do with EDS, but this way HP only has to put out one press release. Sun Microsystems, which has been struggling in the server space, announced in November it would cut 5,000 to 6,000 employees, or between 15 and 18 percent of its workforce.”
January 22nd, 2009 at 1:31 am
Lily pad:
patriotz: You might find this site a good place to start.
Well sure, I agree the refugee system needs improving. I have already said so.
But one of the biggest problems with the system is that there are too many spurious claimants. They take up too many resources and impair our ability to help genuine claimants. Because the system works so slowly the spurious claimants have an opportunity to marry or have children in Canada to make it more difficult to remove them. If we had a fair and expeditious system the incentive for spurious claimants would be much smaller. Also the fewer resources that are available to investigate claims, the more likely the board members are to give claimants the benefit of the doubt whether genuine or not.
It should also go without saying that the prevalence of spurious claimants who are obvious to anyone (as I have given examples of above), erodes public support for refugee protection.
You might like to know that one reason I hold these views is that I personally know someone who used to be on the refugee board, who is one of the strongest advocates for human rights that I know, and he told me that the great majority of claimants were not from countries that were major human rights abusers.
If the government allocated sufficient resources to the system, it would result both in better protection for genuine claimants and quicker removal of, and ultimately fewer claims from, the spurious ones.
January 22nd, 2009 at 6:32 am
UPDATE: all layoffs confirmed as per company announcements:
Microsoft 5000
Unisys 1300
Hewlett – Packard 25000
Sun Micro systems 6000
January 22nd, 2009 at 6:45 am
Post # 116
This begs the question, where do these people come out with all that money to buy those condos?
———–
This type of buyer was somewhat predictable.
Not sure if they had the means to purchase, and the so called “discount” was their affordability benchmark.
OR …were they “bears” in their own mind….thinking they are great bargain hunters, and need to have bait thrown at them to pounce. This type sems to be the ones that if they hear the word “sale”, they react like Pavlov’s dog with open wallets, and feel its true, the facts and details be damned.
In a declining market, one can predict and define various buyer groups. The aforementioned types would tend to be naive and unsophisticated, with a clear lack of understanding of the normal real estate cycles, but even worse, not reading how this latest one will shape up.
A truly sophisticated “bear” buyer is still hibernating…hedging their own bets via all indications are that major haircuts are still to come.
Maybe its good the “the Flo” and other ONNI product came on market..it tested the waters and we can get a feel for the market learning from others self-inflicted mistakes as these fire sales start and thus let others get burned while the rest of us watch from a safe distance.
January 22nd, 2009 at 7:19 am
FINANCIAL MELTDOWN
The unreality of the ‘real’ business cycle
Not to mention capitalism’s ‘gale of creative destruction’
http://www.theglobeandmail.com.....y/Comment/
QUOTE:
Testifying recently before a U.S. congressional committee, former Federal Reserve Board chairman Alan Greenspan said the financial meltdown had shattered his “intellectual structure.” I am keen to understand what he meant.
Since I have had no opportunity to ask him, I have to rely on his memoirs, The Age of Turbulence, for clues. But that book was published in 2007 – before, presumably, his intellectual structure fell apart.
In his memoirs, Mr. Greenspan revealed that his favourite economist was Joseph Schumpeter, inventor of the concept of “creative destruction.” In his summary of Mr. Schumpeter’s thinking, a “market economy will incessantly revitalize itself from within by scrapping old and failing businesses and then reallocating resources to newer, more productive ones.” Mr. Greenspan had seen “this pattern of progress and obsolescence repeat over and over again.”
————————————————-
QUOTE
In classic business-cycle theory, a boom is initiated by a clutch of inventions – power looms and spinning jennies in the 18th century, railways in the 19th century, automobiles in the 20th century. But competitive pressures and the long gestation period of fixed-capital outlays multiply optimism, leading to more investment being undertaken than is actually profitable. Such overinvestment produces an inevitable collapse.
Banks magnify the boom by making credit too easily available, and they exacerbate the bust by withdrawing it too abruptly. But the legacy is a more efficient stock of capital equipment.
Dennis Robertson, an early 20th-century “real” business-cycle theorist, wrote: “I do not feel confident that a policy which, in the pursuit of stability of prices, output, and employment, had nipped in the bud the English railway boom of the forties, or the American railway boom of 1869-71, or the German electrical boom of the nineties, would have been on balance beneficial to the populations concerned.” Like Mr. Schumpeter, Mr. Robertson regarded these boom-bust cycles, which involved both the creation of new capital and the destruction of old capital, as inseparable from progress.
—————————————————–
( More modern times):
QUOTE
Contemporary “real” business-cycle theory builds a mountain of mathematics on top of these early models, the main effect being to minimize the “destructiveness” of the “creation.” It manages to combine technology-driven cycles of booms and recessions with markets that always clear (that is, there’s no unemployment).
How is this trick accomplished? When a positive technological “shock” raises real wages, people will work more, causing output to surge. In the face of a negative “shock,” workers will increase their leisure, causing output to fall.
These are efficient responses to changes in real wages. No intervention by government is needed. Bailing out inefficient auto companies such as General Motors only slows down the rate of progress. In fact, whereas most schools of economic thought maintain that one of government’s key responsibilities is to smooth the cycle, “real” business-cycle theory argues that reducing volatility reduces welfare.
It is hard to see how this type of theory explains today’s economic turbulence or offers sound instruction about how to deal with it. First, in contrast to the dot-com boom, it is difficult to identify the technological “shock” that set off the boom. Of course, the upswing was marked by super-abundant credit. But this was not used to finance new inventions: It was the invention. It was called securitized mortgages. It left no monuments to human invention, only piles of financial ruin.
————————————————-
QUOTE:
Equivalent advice today would be that governments the world over are doing all the wrong things in bailing out top-heavy banks, subsidizing inefficient businesses, and putting obstacles in the way of rational workers spending more time with their families or taking lower-paid jobs.
It reminds me of the interviewer who went to see Robert Lucas, one of the high priests of the New Business Cycle school, at a time of high U.S. unemployment in the 1980s. “My driver is an unemployed PhD graduate,” the interviewer told Mr. Lucas. “Well,” replied the 1995 Nobel laureate, “I’d say that, if he’s driving a taxi, he’s a taxi driver.”
————————————————-
Good article.
Seems to indicate that Gov’ts, Banksters etc do a ” Plug and Play” to prime the pump.
Plug in some thing that will create or “Play” out a “boom” .
The latest one , the RE run up. makes one think that the powers that be have run out of ideas, the well is dry.
January 22nd, 2009 at 7:43 am
Patriotz:
If you claim something is happening, the onus is on you to prove it. Not on the person who claims something isn’t happening.
Same argument as tobacco companies used against those nutty health risk alarmists, as Exxon-sponsored “scientists” are using against global warming, as is commonly used by anyone making tons of money in a societally-harmful way.
Do you realize the process by which a new food additive is approved? As long as the mouse doesn’t die within days, all good to go!
Anyway, I agree with most of your posts, but you should really stick to business and economics. It’s pretty deep mud everywhere else! There are both real refugee claimants fleeing terrible threats, and bogus system-scammers. Also about 5-6 BILLION people who don’t have it as good we do here. Let’s take them all!!! At taxpayer expense!!! Yayyy!
OK, that won’t work. How many do we accept, and how do we choose them. The most pathetic? The pushiest? The least ethical? See where I’m going? I’m stopping now, the mud is getting too deep for my tastes.
January 22nd, 2009 at 7:44 am
VANOC chairman believes buyers will snap up Olympic village condos
http://www.theglobeandmail.com...../National/
QUOTE:
This piece of property … is the tenderloin of real estate left in the city,” Mr. Poole said yesterday, while stressing that he was speaking as a veteran real estate developer and not as a spokesman for the Vancouver Olympic Organizing Committee (VANOC).
“It’s the last remaining piece of waterfront. It’s something we would all covet. This is it.”
===============================================
QUOTE:
Many believe that post-Olympic sales of the project’s luxury condominiums will not be enough to enable the city to recoup all the money shelled out to finish the village in time, given plummeting real estate prices.
Mr. Poole, however, said he thinks the city will do quite well. “As a taxpayer, I am not losing any sleep that the city is going to lose money on this. It’s a question of how much money they’re going to make.”
By the time units go on sale, there will be a shortage of high-level condominiums available because other projects are being mothballed in the face of shrinking sales, he said. “I don’t have a crystal ball to tell you what the market will be like in 12 or 24 months, but if anything is going to be marketable, it’s going to be those units on False Creek.”
————————————————-
On the question of financing, Mr. Poole said the city now has all the tools it needs, after obtaining unlimited borrowing powers at a special weekend sitting of the provincial legislature.
“In my view, there will be a lineup of investors to participate in the financing the city requires. … Financial institutions and pension plans will want to buy that paper [debentures] as soon as it’s offered,” the VANOC chairman predicted. “It will not be an issue.”
—————————————————
So:
Rose coloured glasses ?.
Poole may be right that in the relativity game, these may be prime choice, but what will the market price be?
Just because you put $”X” into each unit and ask “Y” does not mean they will even get “X” back..all indication is they will be sold for less than $”X” ie far below break even.
In another article…it is clear that they will be going in and doing renos on the condo units after the Olympics are over. It was noted carpets will be temporary and hardwood floors put in. Whers the environmental spin?Also, you don’t thik they may have to repaint each one.
January 22nd, 2009 at 8:15 am
All you doomers need to chill:
http://www.househunting.ca/sto.....17&p=2
January 22nd, 2009 at 9:07 am
Regarding the “problem” of refugees
“41,900 refugee claims are now pending in Canada. They take at least a year to resolve and much longer if appealed. In 2005 12,000 people made the cut, implying 3 out of 4 refugee claims are bogus.”
Lets assume there are 4,200 “refugees” in the lower mainland. Lets further assume 3000 of them are bogus.
Welfare pays around $ 600 per month for a single male. Thats $ 1.8 million per month for the scammers. If the bogus “refugee” appeals their deportation they will be here at very least 2 years. The direct cost of these scammers is now $ 43 million.
All refugees are provided room and board immediately. Those beds are unavailable for Canadian homeless.
But that ain’t all. Lets assume 80% of the scammers are working “under the table”. Thats 2400 jobs in the lower mainland alone that ARE NOT available for Cannadians. No taxes, no CPP, no UIC, no contributions of any kind to our society. Further, most send the bulk of their earnings home, meaning virtualy nothing accrues to Canada.
Yes, it IS a major problem and one that MUST be addressed. Canadians are an open and giving people but we MUST NOT become a completely generous sucker for those seeking to enrich themselves at taxpayer expense.
January 22nd, 2009 at 9:52 am
sidelines, thanks for stepping up to say something. we have quite enough problems without bringing out racists nonsense.
January 22nd, 2009 at 10:00 am
The refugee ( which is in essence a sub group of the immigration total ) question should be based on the given current cirumstances within the potential host country.
What is the obligation of any given country to accept these parties , do we have the resources to accept them and what is the impact on the current citizen base(which itself is made up of both immigrant (including past refugees)and native born citizens.
We can never accept every legitimate refugee or any other immigrant. There is a limit to that.
So, where do we draw the line?
IMHO, when times get more diffiult, we have to tighten up and allow less.
If not, then we drag this country down to thel owest common denominator and enter into frontier territory and a race to the bottom.. This conflicts with the very reason why these parties want to come here in the first place. There has to be a happy medium, but regardless can we even afford in these uncertain times the historical levels we have allowed to date?
January 22nd, 2009 at 10:07 am
There are alot of for sale signs popping up here recently in the Fraser Valley.I would predict listings to hit 32,000 in the REBGV by the end of May. Anyone have a prediction?
January 22nd, 2009 at 10:29 am
NO -LYMPICS:
I have traveled extensively and have come to the conclusion that peoples in the third world are thier own worst enemies. They support absolute corruption as normal, make no attempt to improve thier own societies. Exercise extreme tribal, religious, language , geographic, economic and racist wars and systemic violence upon each other and have generally been the master authors of thier own destruction to the point where they have turned thier own countries, homelands and economies into unlivable toilets which now they are trying to escape.
IMHO western countries should be putting more pressure on these people to clean up thier own act before springing into political correctness action and allowing the overflow of these malcontents into our country to drain our already scarce resources. Imagine a world where tribes weren’t murdering each other, where Islam could decide not to raid thier neighbours steal the women and rape the goats over a disagreement over who should have succeeded Mohammed ( peace be to him) 1500 years ago exploding the ritual battles of blood and constant mayhem in the name of tribal devisions be they Sunni or Shiite.
Mexicans need to stay in Mexico and work for a better Mexican economy and corruption, why aren’t they marching in the street? Ethiopians and Somali’s need to stop killing each other over blood feuds and tribal disputes etc etc. Canada is not a fund raising time out spot for terrorists from India , Sri Lanka or anywhere else for that matter. Canadian church groups should not be allowed to disrespect the CDN immigration system and rename Chinese catholics and Evangelist as religious refugees, the Chinese should be working in China to improve China.
Now the the religious and ethnic wars are over in the Balkans and it’s safe to go back, why are all these war displaced refugees still in Canada? We hepled them out, do we have to support them forever, isn’t it better to build a better Bosnia, wouldn’t that be better for the planet at large?
Political correctness is the problem not the solution. These people need to concentrate on using the aid money they recieve to build schools, flush toilets, roads, hospitals etc etc, instead of cheap russian guns. The bulk of the aid money is stolen and ends up in Swiss banks and French Chateaus, this has been voiced by the British Government.
Our civilization in Europe took a thousand years to develop what we have today, the third world players have been around just as long and have chosen violence, mayhem and filth as they chosen medium, why should we be rescuing these people who have no intrest in helping themselves?
January 22nd, 2009 at 11:16 am
Mexico has replaced Guatamala, Honduras, and San Salvator as the greatest source of “refugees” in Canada over the past few years.
Unknown it is what life threatening “danger” they face returning to Mexico, but whatever, there are THOUSANDS here thanking you for your generous support.
January 22nd, 2009 at 1:56 pm
“I have traveled extensively and have come to the conclusion that peoples in the third world are thier own worst enemies.”
this thread has taken a really ugly turn.
January 22nd, 2009 at 2:40 pm
“this thread has taken a really ugly turn”
I could not agree more emphatically. Holy sh*t! I, too, have travelled extensively to 3rd world countries. I saw nothing but people struggling to do their best. How you come to your conclusions conclusions, realpaul, is beyond me, beyond my comprension. It seems some history reading would be helpful here to help gain understanding and context. I’m not kidding. Wow. I have no time to get into it all – and this is not the place. Let’s just talk about RE, I suppose. Having said that, may all those of us who witness (or read) intolerence remember to speak out. It’s totally unacceptable – as is remaining silent in the face of it.
January 22nd, 2009 at 2:49 pm
Sidelines:
Was anything I said untrue?
January 22nd, 2009 at 7:01 pm
This is really sad.
Illegal immigrants are not responsible for the global financial crisis.
“Our civilization in Europe took a thousand years to develop what we have today, the third world players have been around just as long and have chosen violence, mayhem and filth as they chosen medium, ”
This level of ignorance and hatred is disgusting, and does not belong here. Change the subject back to finance now please.