The New Dream: Renting
Cashisking points out this article in the Wall Street Journal about the history of the North American dream of home ownership and how it’s changed over time.
Until the early 20th century, holding a mortgage came with a stigma. You were a debtor, and chronic indebtedness was a problem to be avoided like too much drinking or gambling. The four words “keep out of debt” or “pay as you go” appeared in countless advice books. As the YMCA told its young charges, “If you can’t pay, don’t buy. Go without. Keep on going without.” Because of that, many middle-class Americans—even those with a taste for single-family houses—rented. Home Sweet Home didn’t lose its sweetness because someone else held the title.
The article goes on to cover changes in government policy and lending, from the depression up to the recent housing boom and bust in the US.
Like the US, the Canadian government has policies to encourage home ownership (via the CMHC) based on the assumption that home ownership is good for society, but is it? Do you as an owner or renter feel that there is a fundamental difference between the two choices? Are owners more responsible and more involved in their community? On the flipside, are renters with a higher disposable income more beneficial to a local economy?
The WSJ article ends with an interesting note on the origins of the ‘American Dream’ quote:
RSS 2.0 comments feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.James Truslow Adams, the historian who coined the phrase “the American dream,” one that he defined as “a better, richer, and happier life for all our citizens of every rank” also offered a prescient commentary in the midst of the Great Depression. “That dream,” he wrote in 1933, “has always meant more than the accumulation of material goods.” Home should be a place to build a household and a life, a respite from the heartless world, not a pot of gold.
August 18th, 2009 at 10:21 pm
“then they invented the printing press” someting to remeMber nutsters!
August 18th, 2009 at 10:30 pm
The cult of home ownership is powerful. As a previous homeowner, or should I say minority shareholder with the bank, renting did take a bit of getting used to. 6 digits in savings, no debt, weekends free from Home Despot, etc. etc. I finally realized what I was missing; absolutely nothing!! I never had a better tan in my life as well. Renting and saving becomes the new cult. For fun I recently cancelled my cable tv, brushed off my library card, cancelled my cell phone last week, more money in the bank each month. For every tax increase or rate hike, I plan on taking and equal and opposite action to counter it. Underground economy anyone?
I may own again one day, only because it is the right thing to do, not because of societal conditioning.
August 18th, 2009 at 10:47 pm
Chilled: nice post
On the top of what you mentioned I did one more thing: moved to Regina.
i would sum up the whole concept as a “Change” rather then just strictly “home or no home ownership”. And once you break from the societal conditioning the feeling is so nice. It is like born again.
August 18th, 2009 at 11:28 pm
Ownership confers a sense of responsibility. That’s one of the basic tenants (ha!) of capitalism.
August 19th, 2009 at 12:04 am
When the government says to rent, BUY.
August 19th, 2009 at 2:14 am
“Are owners more responsible and more involved in their community?”
That’s an interesting question. I wonder if anyone has done proper research on this.
Impact on property values probably causes some owners to get more involved than renters. But that is in a very self-centered way. NIMBYism isn’t always bad but can lead to a few people blocking something that is for the common good.
When a neighbourhood declines, its probably the more potentially mobile (wealthier) renters who flee first. This leaves behind the crackheads and such, which might give people the wrong impression that renters are a problem.
I just had an debate with my Mom about renting. She is frustrated that I’m not an owner (but does sort of agree with my bearish position). She keeps bringing up “security in old age” as a reason to own. When she mentioned the elderly being evicted in the Westend, I countered with the elderly leaky condo owners.
Then she mentioned that in her volunteer work preparing taxes for seniors, she notices the home-owners are better off. If it wasn’t Mom, I would have been snarky, but politely pointed out that the poor rent because they are poor, and renting didn’t cause their poverty.
I wanted to make a final point but she wanted to move on, so I bit my tongue. That point would have been that her own mother lived in the lovely old veterans housing on West Broadway (now replaced with leaky condos
) Grandma lived well as a renter.
August 19th, 2009 at 7:29 am
I think owning imparts a greater sense of stability and rootedness which is the result of greater personal committment to one’s circumstances. People who buy a “home” and not an investment do so when they are satisfied with their particular set of circumstances such as employment status, relationship status and of course where they live etc.
Renting gives one the freedom to move if circumstances are not yet ideal enough to “settle down”. This ability to do so is always at the back of the mind of all renters.
August 19th, 2009 at 8:24 am
There are so many things that I’d do to the place I’m currently renting if I owned it. There is little to no incentive to do anything, other than to take care of what’s already there, for a property that you rent. So a neighbourhood with both lots of rentals and landlords that don’t want to pay for anything, could start to get pretty run down. Of course I wouldn’t want to rent in a place like that and so as No Longer Looking said the quality of renter would go down yadda yadda.
But this “to own at all costs” mentatity seems very silly. Currently it is jammed down our throats that in order to be a successful productive member of society we must own.
I’m with you Chilled!
“As a previous homeowner, or should I say minority shareholder with the bank, renting did take a bit of getting used to. 6 digits in savings, no debt, weekends free from Home Despot, etc. etc. I finally realized what I was missing; absolutely nothing!! ”
I also may own one day again, if I can find something worth owning. It would currently cost me $300 more a month to rent my current home from the bank. (25% down 10 yr/25 am)That’s not including lost investment income. My savings aren’t just sitting there doing nothing afterall. For 5% down it would cost me $783 more per month. Now who’s throwing money away again??
We really should teach personal finance to our kids. I just happen to have a really smart and saavy hubby who taught me. I totally fell for the renting is throwing money away gimack until he showed me the math.
August 19th, 2009 at 8:25 am
I think we tend to forget that much of europe rents vs owns and our parents generations were the first to really move owning ahead of renting.
There is nothing fundamentally wrong with renting and the pros of owning your home in this market come with a hefty premium. We need to stay strong and not cave in to those who would have us believe that owing is the way to Nirvana.
In Vancouver’s case, where it is taking more and more of a family’s income to own a piece of re, little is left for investing in savings for retirement or discretionary spending back into the local economy.
We also tend to forget that in the case of houses there is a certain economy in the time that you spend for ever trimming, pruning, cleaning and repairing. Time is money after all.
I personally rent and am maxing out rrsp contributions and invest about 60 percent of my income. I may own again but not in this market.
There are some downsides to renting, but I daresay that the benefits of renting out weight the cons.
August 19th, 2009 at 8:33 am
Off topic but interesting. Calgary Realtor sought after body of California model found in briefcase
August 19th, 2009 at 8:41 am
If a down payment of $160K is required to “own” a brand new two bedroom condo in the Newport area of Port Moody, when renting the same unit with NO investment @ $1600.00/mo gets you the same thing?
Cheaper to rent, by far.
August 19th, 2009 at 8:42 am
I think people want to own, and will pay a silly premium for it, because of the perception of wealthy owners and poor renters. People don’t tend to think of the people that are deep in debt trying to pay the assessment on their leaky condo, or the renter with several hundred thousand in liquid assets. They think owning equals wealth and if government programs makes owning possible for them (even at an unhealthy financial stretch), they get to think of themselves as one of the wealthy.
August 19th, 2009 at 8:48 am
How can owners be more responsible, care for the property more than renters and be of benefit to local society if thy don’t even live here? Most of the RE in Vancouver is investor owned. Those rundown rentals look like they do, because the owners live overseas and don’t give a flying fcuk about their obligations to local society.
And one more thing: “Home should be a place to build a household and a life, a respite from the heartless world” – well, not in here it ain’t.
When its 30 degrees outside, it is 35 degrees in my apartment – quality design and craftsmanship of Vancouver construction for you. And just to think that the main reason for a home is to find refuge from elements… Leaky condos anyone?
P A T H E T I C!
August 19th, 2009 at 8:54 am
There was a front page story in either the Sun or the Province about two years ago that broke down the percentage of renters by neighborhood. I just went hunting for it on Google, but couldn’t find it. I remember though that there was a HIGHER percentage of renters in the more desireable neighborhoods. Kits had a higher percentage of renters than most east van neighborhoods.
Kind of puts a lie to the idea that renters drag down a neighborhood, or owners improve them.
August 19th, 2009 at 10:39 am
Post #9: m says
“I also may own one day again, if I can find something worth owning. It would currently cost me $300 more a month to rent my current home from the bank. ”
Thats the proper perspective that many are making.
It is “rent” either way.
Either
—”rent” to a landlord who is in debt to the bank, or
—bypass the middleman(ie landlord) and “rent” from the bank
Is this what it really boils down to?
What happens in the US will ultimately happen in Canada.
Will owning or renting be a better move given the economy in the near future.
I met a person who was a Swiss -trained chef who moved to BC. He said that renting in Europe was more the norm…due to the high cost of housing. However given the good salaries many enjoyed, even though rents were high people still had far more disposable income and were able to do more things like travel.
IMHO home ownership is not a bad thing…someone has to own..renters need the landlord first. I think most peoples plan was to go to school, get a career, rent then ultimately buy as a primary residence. Whats wrong with that ? However, this traditional evolution to home ownership has been somewhat corrupted via greedy banks developers and Gov’ts, to where people are getting turned off and following the European model.(even though the European models attempt at ownership has come and bite them in the ass).
August 19th, 2009 at 10:42 am
Renting is definitely the way to go these days. Sure, it would be nice to own a house (gardening on my patio is not exactly ideal) but at this point it makes no economic sense.
Sure, seniors with homes are wealthy these days BECAUSE they own homes….but they also saved up to put down a healthy down payment, and religiously paid off that mortgage within a reasonable period of time. And then house prices went up, so voila, they now have equity! And guess what, they didn’t have to pay some huge mortgage every month, so they could easily afford to also sock away some money in savings. But will we be able to say the same thing of people who are buying right now, in 30 years? Will that $750k house be worth $3 million in 30 years? Will that mortgage really be paid off (with 35 year amort. it may not be!) And what about the fact that the homeowner was not able to put ANY money into savings due to the huge mortgage they took out? It seems flawed somehow…people seem to be trying to replicate the experience of their grandparents/parents but they don’t realize that it’s a totally different situation. Our parents/grandparents were averse to debt, and I bet most of them didn’t expect that the little house they bought would be worth so much after 30 years. It was, after all, just a home, not a “pot of gold”. We’ve got it all wrong here and eventually it will all come crashing down-the debt will get most in the end.
August 19th, 2009 at 11:14 am
pricedoutfornow:
very well put……..
August 19th, 2009 at 11:26 am
“Will that $750k house be worth $3 million in 30 years?”
Maybe, but I think the more reasonable questions is: will that $750k house be worth $300k in 2 years?
August 19th, 2009 at 11:43 am
6 X No Longer Looking Says:
August 19th, 2009 at 2:14 am
“Are owners more responsible and more involved in their community?”
=====
In my experience it depends on the area.
Some family members and their neighbours were original owners of their properties(since the 1960′s )and ironically
4 of them sold within a year. (a couple of years ago)
3 of the houses were almost instantly converted to rooming houses…with all sorts of infill and add ons by their new Asian owners. I went by the old neighbourhood recently and one neighbours home has its driveway plugged with old cars and a chewed up front lawn. In just over 2 years a once immaculate home is now getting run down.
However, say on the West side of Vancouver, I think its more the unoffical rule that whether one be an owner or a renter, the homes be kept up. This justifies high rent and/or keeps resident owners happy…or else they would be more predisposed to stir things up. The irony is that many original West side homes were of larger sizes(wealthier area to begin with) and often converted into suites).
In other areas, ie East side, house were smaller and working class. Often the best one can do is convert the basement into a suite. Many simply sit either owned by senior citizens or absentee owners (often Asians or South East Asians )and waiting to be turned into McMansions. Often any of these homes, once sold , are demolished, rarely kept to rent or owner occupied.
August 19th, 2009 at 11:54 am
It’s impossible to tell what the future will bring, but the mighty have fallen hard in the past and continue to do so as referanced in Garths blog re: Detroit. However more succinctly we have a big problem her which also referance by Garths blog goe like this
“Some chi-chi social provocateurs say the future is globalization and urbanization. Let the manufacturing, fabricating, assembling, engineering, materials handling and support jobs migrate to Chindia. Go ahead and shut those unsightly single-story plants with their hazardous wastes and send them packing. Hollow-out small town Canada. Hell, the locals can move to an apartment in Toronto, go to York University and learn something useful.
In reality a green, knowledge-based society filled with highly-educated workers making ever more money is a dream more distant now than ever. Over the next few years immense amounts of wealth will flow out of countries like Canada and the States as we send cash to Asian bondholders. At the same time, we’re helpless without that offshore manufacturing capacity, and now snared in sluggish economic growth and chronic unemployment.
This week the IMF reinforced a point I’ve been making for months: The only certain thing about the years to come are higher taxes and slower growth (and you can in add higher interest rates). The legacy of the 2008-9 meltdown is already known: Debt. Steamy piles of it. The inescapable consequence of the greatest government spending orgy in history.
Sales taxes will be first (the new HST and more GST), followed by capital taxes and income tax. This will be accompanied by stiffer energy bills and lots more interest.
If you don’t see this coming, you’re not looking.”
This all relates to this Ponzi scam that many of you are referring to in various posts. ” Will my million dollars be 3 in 20?” Well there are many examples of that dream blowing up the face of property owners around the world. If you’re thinking ‘not here, cause we’re special’, I wonder if that same hype was used to sell the dream to all these other people. We are involved in a big gamble, and as you know know gamblers most often lose. In fact a famous study regarding the psycholgy of gamblers concluded that ‘the secret desire of all gamblers was to fail’.
Are we setting ourselves up for failure? What is the inflection point between success and doom? What percentage of your income going ultimatley to taxation and overhead will be the number that breaks the tip off the pyramid and sends the whole mess tumbling down? Everyone agrees that the current system is unsustainable, that goes without saying and yet the sirens call of greed sucks more into the game every year. In the US the system failed and crashed, where are we at in Canada in this timeline. Who will be the last man standing to hear ” Turn out the lights when you leave”.
August 19th, 2009 at 11:57 am
I’m just wondering, what would happen when the greedy Liberals get the HST going and the olympics end? The middle and lower income people will get crushed like termites. For the greedy middle class who owns more than 3 condo units, they are in for a rude awakening.
August 19th, 2009 at 1:20 pm
Supraboy, Are you schizophrenic? Half the time you’re bullish, half bearish. What’s up with that?
August 19th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
$200.000 in the bank.
Option 1)
Open one high interest savings account and one trust account in Bank X in order to be under 100k. or
Option 2) open one high savings account in Bank X and another one in Bank Y.
Q) Do you earn interest in trust account? and Can you withdraw money easily (anytime) as in savings account?
August 19th, 2009 at 2:54 pm
23): Option 2. Spread out your risk of the bank going under.
August 19th, 2009 at 4:34 pm
#23:
Option 2 is the way to go.
People’s Trust have excellent rates. Also Canadian Tire Financial have good rates.
August 19th, 2009 at 5:20 pm
Anon, you also get seperate CDIC coverage for joint accounts at the same institution. That means you could have a total of $300k covered by deposit insurance if you have an account, your wife has an account and you have a joint account at the same bank.
It can be easier to track accounts at a single bank, but even though you’ll be covered in the event of a bank failure it will take some time to get your money from CDIC. That’s the main drawback.
Hopefully nobody here is keeping more than the covered $100k in a single bank account.
August 19th, 2009 at 5:36 pm
Crash:
I just opened an account at CT Financial. I find it completely ironic that I trust them with the lions share of my life savings, but wouldn’t let them near my 2009 car, worth *significantly* less. LOL
As a side note, I think ING currently has the best rate for Tax Free Savings accounts?? Max it January 1, 2010.
August 19th, 2009 at 5:51 pm
#23 Anonymus: Option 0) Keep your cash in a credit union. BC credit unions have unlimted coverage.
August 19th, 2009 at 5:52 pm
Don’t forget that if you’re married, get a Tax Free Savings Account for each of you.
August 19th, 2009 at 6:32 pm
some more questions:
ok so consensus is to spread the risk in few banks.
Can you guys share the rate? As of yesterday I have 0.75 at Scotia. you get just a crumbs
Is ING covered under CDIC?
How safe are credit unions? Still i have a problem putting all the money in one credit union? I am not sure if all credit unions are under CDIC?
TFSA are only 10k per couple, per year. Not much in my opinion. again just crumbs.
i have found this article to be informative but does not say more about trust accounts:
http://www.thestar.com/Business/article/526341
August 19th, 2009 at 6:41 pm
Here’s the link for the CDIC. They have a list of all financial institutions that they insure. The ceiling is $100K. Provincial govt’s insure credit union deposits to $250K.
Some banks have more than one business entity, so you can deposit more than $100K in accounts under the different entities. TD Canada Trust is an example of this.
http://www.cdic.ca/e/index.html
August 19th, 2009 at 6:46 pm
PCF is also just .75%
http://www.banking.pcfinancial.....tRate.page
Savings account rates suck at the moment. Of course that is the government’s way of encouraging spending.
August 19th, 2009 at 6:54 pm
Here’s an article about families finding it tough to rent in Vancouver.
http://www.cbc.ca/consumer/sto.....ouver.html
August 19th, 2009 at 7:08 pm
Global 6 PM News.
Old BC Finance minister sure looked VERY uncomfortable eh…Deficit is projected to be over $ one Billion. Revenue sources are WAAAAYYYY DOOOWWWWN.
That means there is less money in the economy, right?, hence less taxes paid right? ….Y’ know, where common sense and Economics 101 meet.
So what do smart(redundant) BC’ers do ?
Go Buy Real Estate !!!
God/Allah help us !!!!
August 19th, 2009 at 7:26 pm
21 X Supraboy Says:
August 19th, 2009 at 11:57 am
I’m just wondering, what would happen when the greedy Liberals get the HST going and the olympics end? The middle and lower income people will get crushed like termites. For the greedy middle class who owns more than 3 condo units, they are in for a rude awakening.
=========
Yeah Supraboy: What IS up,flip flop…BULL..BEAR….at least be consistent.
I am NOT an NDP supporter, but I am truly disgusted with the LIEberals. LIE after LIE after LIE. How much of this BS do they expect us to listen to? They can’t believe that WE believe it !
City of Vancouver must be shitting bricks right now over the
Olympic Village. They have to hand it over to VANOC in about 10 weeks. Was over the Cambie bridge recently and the Made in Korea windows finally look in, but aesthetically it still looks ugly. That barren construction site immediately North owned by WALL Financial sure adds to the appeal(like the raw sewage floating by in False Creek.
QUESTION: Why isn’t WALL Financial ramping up construction….it’s right next to Olympic village !!! Or is their a hidden message re: WALLs “stand pat” position ?
After the Olympics is over VANOC apparently has to renovate each suite (as they have to be at certain specs for the Olympics). I wonder if VANOC was going to sell them as used, hence GST exempt ? However, did COV foresee the HST? I wonder how HST will impact the Olympic Village condos sales price.
Ah well ,after COV’s last years 8% property tax hike…COV taxpayers all got lots of money….the world’s TOP city….bwahahahahaha.
August 19th, 2009 at 8:05 pm
realpaul post #20
There are lots of YouTube videos re: Detroit. I remember 30 years ago how bad it was ” US murder capital “.
The population peaked in the 1950′s(approx. 2 million ) now its down about 900,000 and getting worse. This was the HUB of middle class..old Henry Ford mantra of a wage increase or else who is going to buy his product?..or “whats good for GM is good for America” .
Detroits suburbs look like the aftermath of a bombing campaign, it’s truly amazing . Why aren’t these cheap houses (which can be had for less than $10,000 or LESS)attracting buyers ?
There is an inflection point where something reaches a point of no return. The middle classes “Garden of Eden” is now a hell hole. Detroit is not the only US City in these dire straits.
ALSO: If areas like California , Florida, and Phoenix with much better weather are going belly up, what’s so magical about Vancouver er Raincouver.ie (October to June)
As realpaul so astutely says, middle class jobs have been increasingly been shipped offshore. Hi -Tech will save us ?
….seems like all one reads is a lot of outsourcing to China and India.
Ask yourself: if China blew up tomorrow, had a civil war, or simply froze all trade, how SOL would we be here in North America? Where would we buy many of the manufactured products we have assumed will continue ad infinitum?
One almost thinks this was a well orchestrated Machiavellian plan to keep us weak and beholden, allow the credit bubble to addict, enslave and deceive us, and leave us defenceless…a devil’s deal struck between our Gov’ts, Bankers and offshore powers.
Our Federal and Provincial Gov’ts can only maintain a lie for so long…even they are forced to expose their hand , which they have…with pre-emptive tax hikes (ie a years warning re HST )and numerous immediate program cuts.
Anecdote:
We were in South Surrey today visiting family. Neighbourhood(SFH) is approx. 10 years old .
Neighbours house is for sale .
Reason = lost their job and will have to downsize to a condo.
That’s the future in my “Made in Canada” crystal ball.
August 19th, 2009 at 8:27 pm
Error Post 35
WALL Financial site is not NORTH but WEST of the Olympic village.Ie between Cambie Bridge and Olympic Village.
ALSO:
I’ve noticed that the WALL group tends to lead, not follow. They seem to have a knack to invest in areas before the rest of the development herd follows.
August 19th, 2009 at 8:57 pm
ING is insured by the CDIC. As far as the TFSA goes, wouldn’t it make the most sense to open up a trading account? Seems like the perfect place to play some cheap stocks, if you win you don’t pay tax.. and if you lose, well it’s a max of $10,000 for a couple, not too much money.
August 19th, 2009 at 9:22 pm
Investors Snapping Up Downtown Miami Condos
http://cbs4.com/local/miami.co.....33338.html
Are the good ‘old days of real estate back? It appears so in Downtown Miami.
In recent weeks developers have sold hundreds of condos, in a flurry of activity they haven’t seen since the peak of the housing market. Some builders are actually running out of inventory. The first building to sell out, Brickell on the River, happened quietly and quickly selling 120 units in just six weeks time.
August 19th, 2009 at 9:29 pm
#38
“the perfect place to play some cheap stocks, if you win you don’t pay tax.. and if you lose, well it’s a max of $10,000 for a couple, not too much money”
Oh yeah I forgot about that benefit of the TFSA. It is the best place to buy the highest risk/reward investments.
August 19th, 2009 at 9:55 pm
when we moved into our rental home in vancouver I found the neighbours lined up to say hello at first until I let slip we were mere renters then they all moved away from us.. eyeball saying mean nasty ugly things (to the tune of alice’s restaurant)..
it took momths for the owner/neighbours to say hello again.. some never did.. wierd shit.
August 19th, 2009 at 9:58 pm
Quwation for the faithful.
We talk about fundamentals but I don’t think I fully grasp how both the current situation is out of whack or what the fundamentals say things should be.
Average family income in Vancouver is ?
a house should be what 3 to 4 times average family income?
Why is cost of renting versus owning currently out of whack in Van? What do you think the cost of renting versus the cost of owning should be ?
a thousand thank you’s
August 19th, 2009 at 10:20 pm
hovering, demand has exceeded supply for sfh’s here since about 1987. both sfh values and rents top out based on what the demand can afford. there’s not a whole lot more to it than that.
August 19th, 2009 at 10:47 pm
we have a real issue with corrupt realtors in alberta
we have had rapes by realtors frauds by realtors and now murder by calgary realtors
calgary realtor sought for murder
August 19th, 2009 at 10:49 pm
Are the good ‘old days of real estate back? It appears so in Downtown Miami.
Its amazing what happens when prices drop 50%.
August 19th, 2009 at 10:54 pm
Re: Post 22.
I’m bullish about oil and commodities, and bearish on real estate, is that ok with you? Just jack the hell up on inflation so we can finally see interest rates skyrocket and end this bubble in Vancouver once and for all. I can just imagine $150/barrel oil in a crappy economy. I wonder who those fools are that are supporting the HST. I saw on the news that they said the HST will help companies keep high salary positions. What a big joke. They also said the consumers will benefit. Consumers will benefit by staying at home more and not spend, is that what they mean? Fortunately, I will leave this hell-hole Province for a year next summer and enjoy life in Asia while the suckers here in this province will pay up on the HST. This government ain’t going to see any money from my wallet. Cash deals is the way to go especially for businesses in Richmond. Watch the government’s income shrink due to more fake reports by businesses to lower their taxes.
I’m just going with the flow.
August 19th, 2009 at 11:56 pm
one Q – and a serious one:
how can you be bullish on oil in a “crappy economy”. are you suggesting speculators alone (rather than real demand) will once again push it to $150?
August 20th, 2009 at 4:23 am
People with a higher disposable income are more beneficial to a local economy. The normal situation is that owning is cheaper than renting, and under these conditions, it is good for the economy if renters become owners. In a bubble, when owning is more expensive than renting, it’s bad for the economy if renters become buyers. People buying during a bubble are borrowing demand from the future with interest, i.e. throwing away their future disposable income, which is why bubbles bring a temporary boom followed by a prolonged crash. Like, you know, right now.
It’s really that simple.
BTW the reason why owners are generally more responsible then renters is very simple – in the past, you had to be responsible in order to become a home owner. That’s the causation – not the other way around. There are vast numbers of trashed, foreclosed houses south of the border, if you want to check out what happens when irresponsible people are allowed to buy houses.
August 20th, 2009 at 8:09 am
patriotzed: “In a bubble, when owning is more expensive than renting, it’s bad for the economy if renters become buyers.”
When prices are increasing it is good for the economy only in the short term. Existing owners and developers get a one-time cash advance. That money eventually needs to be repaid, which is a net drain on the economy.
August 20th, 2009 at 9:12 am
Dave: The Miami market may be a return to the ‘good old days’ from a realtors perspective since more sales mean more commission, but I suspect it’s not feeling too much like the ‘good old days’ for people who bought in Miami just a couple years back.
August 20th, 2009 at 9:18 am
Speaking of Miami and the topic of renting: Florida actually saw rents drop when their housing bubble popped and house priced dropped.
August 20th, 2009 at 9:48 am
47, oil will go higher due to production cuts, the USD rolling over, and China racking up more oil. It’s called hyperinflation. Economics 300 my friend.
August 20th, 2009 at 10:06 am
Garth’s site had a good thread going today. Yet what is interesting if you read the comments he is back peddling on real estate claiming he nevere said there will be a crash only a correction. That guy has got to stop the self promotion and back peddling. He has an otherwise good blog.
August 20th, 2009 at 10:30 am
Miami condos on sale?
So how did Asion do it?
Price. They dropped it roughly a $100 thousand under their closest competition. The final prices were half of what units sold for at the peak of the market.
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” Looking at sales it appears most are not being made to ‘bulk’ buyers. However Zalewski believes most are being made to foreign nationals, investors looking to flip once again in Miami real estate, and that could be a good thing or a bad thing. On the one hand, investors may be bailing out downtown Miami, renting out their units and bringing life to the area. On the other they could be making another bad gamble which could lead to another wave of downtown foreclosures.”
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It appears that these condos are being sold at 1/2 price…from $400 sf to $200 sf. So is it fair to say they are being sold below cost ?
In addition, anything will sell if one lowers the price that will attract enough buyers. However, does that mean that this is the ultimate lowest price or any sort of deal?.
For all we know, these prices may collapse further to say $100 sq.ft. Just because its a relative discount doesn’t mean it is a good buy.
August 20th, 2009 at 11:04 am
Just because they’re half the peak price doesn’t mean they’re “below cost”, it just means the market value of those condos are now half what they where at the peak.
August 20th, 2009 at 11:31 am
supra boy
ok, another Q:
if the economy “sucks”, when why will China be ramping up production? who will be buying the plastic crap that they make with all that oil if the western economies “suck”?
August 20th, 2009 at 11:51 am
Re China:
A while back people were discussing ghost buildings in China. Buildings that were built for the sake of building for appearances sake, likley to keep peole employed building them yet empty of any people.
Recently another economist discussed China’s bubble, that it has huge inventories of unsold products sitting in storage, which may be unleashed onto the world in the very near future. Thousands of factories closed soon after the bubble burst last fall, I doubt many if any of these have re-opened .
China’s can manipulate its economy any way it wants…it is far less transparent than those of its western trading partners. I would take any of their numbers with a grain of salt.
August 20th, 2009 at 12:15 pm
SUPRA BOY I believe you have a good point!
What Vancouver or the Western World have no premise about is What is coming thier way!
The Asian population, wealth, nobody really knows, but, bet your ass they are coming here to VANCOUVER!
WHY, Education, Medicare, English, all translates into MONEY!
Good luck competing with thier buying power!
August 20th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
B.C. Deficit THREE BILLION!!!!
Everything fine … Different here … move along … Keep buying RE!
August 20th, 2009 at 12:34 pm
NO -LYMPICS:
#57. NO, I would also take every stat that is published by our governments ‘with a grain of salt’ as well. Thinking back on it, there are no numbers published which are no ‘revised’ when put under a spotlight. The government attempts to publish lies for political gain based on polling numbers.large numbers of people are sucked im by headline numbers and otherwise never seek the truth. They have no reason to, they are ineffective and powerless as individuals and display themselves to their friends and neighbours in whatever borrowed finery they think will show them as being ‘sexy, manly, attractive or whatever. Facts don’t matter to the majority of brain witless and vacuous consumers.
Case in point, the introduction of the HST. Good for Micheal Smith for taking over this issue from the IQ challenged Bill Goood on CKNW. Mikes got a handle on how to expose the absolue bullshit that has been coming out of the Liberal Party – Ministry of Propaganda.
Olympic spending is up, but, hospital surgeries, schools, shelter for seniors, homeless, childrens programs, day camps for disabled persons etc etc etc is being cut to the bone. Now we find the government has spent it’s entire wad on the Olympics and people are going to die from a lack of simple surgeries like Thorasic and Bariatric cases who could be saved quite easily? Because the budget has been blown on the Olympics? Is anyone else a bit pissed off? peopel in the US have been shooting nad over the OBAMA death panel suggestion for the new health bill in the US. We have far surpassed them here and we are letting people die without any arbitration. The ‘death Panels’ in the states will determine which people are terminal and who will no longer benefit from any type of procedure. here we are letting people who could be saved die, laying unattended in hallways and closets. Shame beyond shame.
So whats the plan? Well we spin a new tax and call it ‘a good thing’, we belittle those who don’t agree’ we point out regimes with HST like tax because we know Canadians will alsways go ga-ga over anything from Europe as if its more enlightened and fashionable there.
http://www.vancouversun.com/bu.....story.html
What else, of yeah, we increase the limits on the lottery games so that the truly stupid and the addicted can further and faster ruin their lives by gambling away their childrens lunch money, good idea’s all. PUKE.
Believing the Liberal Party is like reaching into the toilet and taking out a piece of shit and calling it chocolate. You’re only fooling yourself.
The path to fiscal reality for the government should be to head towards rationalization of government spending on special intrest and less spending on government. I mean after all if the government has an extra thousand bureacrats to ‘loan’ to the Olympics with full pay, are those thousand bureacrats rally needed at all. And if the citizens don’t volunteer for the Olympics doesn’t that tell you something. Even the Olympic masters are setting up a diatribe for the failure of the games by stating recently the Vancoc has dropped the ball and that is why the Olympics are a bust.
Our brazen government needs to stop the fiscal carnage now and concentrate on what will happen post Olympics when the real chickens come home to roost. If we’re broke now and the bills haven’t been paid yet, what will it look like when we have to get down to it? Oh yeah, it will be ugly. This phony economy of borrowed spending will stop and BC is set for a historic crash.
August 20th, 2009 at 12:37 pm
Vancouverite:
#58 Where do you get the idea that all immigrant asians are rich? The vast majority are sleeping four to a room in multi family households without a pot to piss in. This fallacy about rich asians is bunk.
August 20th, 2009 at 1:20 pm
You are right that maybe not all asian immigrants are rich; and a lot of them don’t even speak a word of English. However, I have seen so many of them getting rich by good old tax evasion. I know some Chinese mow lawn for other CHinese families for the last 10 yrs and he now owns 5 properties in the lower mainland. Ditto for Chinese diners or small groceries shop owner.
The underground economy in BC is a hugh one, I am not talking about grow-op or gang-related activities. I mean waiter tips, cash paid cleaning service, hairdresser, baby-sitter etc etc
Heck, the CHinese cleaning lady for my neighbour drove a better car than me. I am sure that she does not even speak one word of English nor does she have any business skill to find a real job (like an income-tax paying job!!!)
It really makes me feel sick of these people, I wish Revenue Canada catches all of them and put them to jail for good. Until then the local real estate market will be inflated, as the kids of these crooks start to buy up the houses with help from their CHinese parents
August 20th, 2009 at 1:33 pm
#60 realpaul:
re the HST
3 things have already indicted Campbell beyond repair:
(i) announcing the HST over the summer when people are generally away( historical dirty trick )and when the legislature isn’t sitting.
(ii) He lied to many of his own supporters when asked if he would impliment it. He said NO….not “maybe” or other weasel words. He has lost any remaining credibility.
(iii) One of his reasons is that we will recieve $1.6 Billion from Ottawa in return for harmonization( big deal its still tax $$$ from the taxpayer).
Campbell has seriously misjdged the public ie the consituents whose best and better interest he is supposed to look out for. However people are absolutley livid about this. Good on Michael Smyth for exposing this.
Campbell is showing how detached he has become from the public. IMHO, he has expose himself to be a pupett for the big business interests, and is now in his political kamikaze mode(aka doesn’t care anymore what the citizens think…sort of his own Hitler’s bunker). I agree with many pundits who predict he’s gone shortly after the Olympics. Between now and then he will impose all sorts of nasty BS upon the majority of BC citizens to fulfill various agendas. Then some other LIEberal will become leader and promise a new direction,lol. Campbell will be gone before the HST is implimented in JULY 2010.
As you state their LIEberal latest scam is to up the weekly on -line gambling limits form $120 to $10,000. 8300 % increase ! WTF ? On -line will flow directly to the BC Gov’ts as opposed to casinos which kick in a fixed % to the host Local Gov’t. Casinos and local gov’ts should feel double crossed. Can’t any game in a casino go on line? This is an unbeleivable cash grab.
Canpbell’s MLA’s are equally pathetic, parroting the party line…no testicular fortitude whatsoever to stand up for their constituents.
I am sure their is plenty more bad news to come.
August 20th, 2009 at 1:41 pm
The underground economy will get bigger when the HST is implimented. This HST will backfire on the Gov’t. I can foresee even “honest” people fed up and paying cash/under the table as a means of protest.(though I highly doubt there is anyone that hasn’t paid under the table at least once in their life) .
Combine this HST protest with a bad economy and everyone starts to undercut each other.
August 20th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
realpaul:
Do you really believe this? Realpaul, are you actually Sarah Palin?
This “death panel” garbage is absolute bullshit. No panel would determine whether “granny dies” or not. What idiots like Palin (and I really think that idiot doesn’t even begin to capture the combination of ignorance, stupidity, deception, and lack of any self-awareness that Mrs. Palin possesses) were referring to was a provision that allowed individuals to VOLUNTARILY seek end-of-life counseling and have that covered by the government. It was originally inserted into the health care reform on the insistence of a conservative Republican senator from Georgia (Isaakson) and is currently US law as it was part of the Medicare D package passed with the overwhelming support of the Republican Congress in 2004. So hypocrites like Charles Grassley actually voted for this completely innocuous provision in 2004 and are now claiming that Obama wants to kill grandma and grandpa.
August 20th, 2009 at 1:57 pm
Contentious ‘mega-homes’ return to Surrey agenda
http://www2.canada.com/theprov.....ae2e783ef2
QUOTE:
Council has accepted a staff recommendation to sound out the public about increasing the allowable floor area by about 25 per cent across the city.
The recommendation comes from a resident-driven initiative calling for maximum house sizes on 6,028-square-foot lots to jump from 3,550 square feet to 4,550.
=============
QUOTE:
“We’re trying to accommodate real needs for extended families, affordable housing and easy daycare,” said association vice-president Kalvinder Bassi.
“Density should be much higher within the city core. More people should be within easy reach of amenities,” he said.
The association’s proposal was also meant to address 278 stop- work orders issued against homeowners for unauthorized construction during a three-year period. Many of them were in Whalley and Newton.
=========
While this ain’t a done deal, its more in trial balloon mode I think this is stupid.
It seems certain groups want to build bigger in order to accomodate extended family. There are already too many McMansions out there, buy one of them. I can see this creating a lot of tension in neighbourhoods. Parking problems, noise, services overutilized etc.
I can see 3 phases of housing an a given block if this goes through..ie older homes, newer homes built to the current 3550 sf max, then those 4550 sf. Don’t realtors advise against such dicrepancies.ie build to the norm of the neighbourhood.ie fit in ?. What value is a 3550 sf home if 4550 sf home is now allowable?
Talk about pandering to a special interest group.
I see this as a capital gains scam involving new construction .(****realpaul remember our past discussion about “temple money” ? )
August 20th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
“Dave Says:
August 19th, 2009 at 9:22 pm
Investors Snapping Up Downtown Miami Condos
http://cbs4.com/local/miami.co…..33338.html
Are the good ‘old days of real estate back? It appears so in Downtown Miami.
In recent weeks developers have sold hundreds of condos, in a flurry of activity they haven’t seen since the peak of the housing market. Some builders are actually running out of inventory. The first building to sell out, Brickell on the River, happened quietly and quickly selling 120 units in just six weeks time.”
Sure, why not buy now if it makes sense (ratios), prices have dropped around 50% I believe according to the latest Case-Shiller.
Although I wonder how many option ARM mortgages were in Florida? I definitely would not buy in California yet, even with prices down the same amount or more, given there is going to be another wave of defaults over the next two years.
August 20th, 2009 at 2:12 pm
oneangryslav
Death panels (for lack of a better name) DO exist, and our family is going through that right now.
A family member in their 70′s has been diagnosed with cancer and give their age they are not being given the same treatment protocol as someone younger. No surgery, chemo just started this week. There was no immediate intervention as they bounce from doctor to doctor. The tumour has been allowed to grow 14 X’s its original size . WTF?
In essence, they ( the medical staff and whoever else has a say) are directing the resources as they see fit. Are they basing their treatment protocol using sound objective judgement? One hopes so.
However these people have lived through wars and paid taxes all their lives. I most certainly hope that they are not being viewed as having served a purpose and are now expendable / disposable.
An MD once stated that the vast majority of health care per capita is spent in the last 2 years of one’s life.
That same fate could eventually await us all.
August 20th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
#61 All immigrant asians Rich?
I never said all immigrant asians are rich.
What I’m saying is that there are so many more asians than local home owner or wannabe local home owners that want to own a home & business in Vancouver.
If all immigrant asians were rich home prices would not be down from 2006-07.
However, it does take a lot of money to immigrate to Canada with no special skills.
Just the sheer # who want to come here.
My point is that there are many more asians coming our way to Vancouver, not all immigrating here, but still buying RE.
August 20th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
NO -LYMPICS: NO, the important part of your response is “give[n] their age they are not being given the same treatment protocol as someone younger.”
Without more knowledge about the specifics of the case, it’s difficult to assess whether your relative has been given what amounts to a death sentence by BC medical services. The larger point, however, is that one would expect the protocol for treating a disease to vary by age. Younger persons are, obviously, stronger and healthier generally than older persons, and medical intervention (paricularly chemotherapy) puts tremendous stress on the body. Once again, though, one would have to know a lot more of the specifics in the case of your relative.
The point that I tried to make in my previous post was to debunk the “death panels” myth vis-a-vis the health care debate in the US. Oh, and you’re correct about “death panels” existing in the United States. If you can’t afford health insurance, you get no health care. Period.
August 20th, 2009 at 3:02 pm
Vancouverite: What is your evidence for the claims you make, Vancouverite? Have there been any surveys done about the attitudes of Chinese with respect to emigration?
Now you may know many people who want to emigrate to Canada (Vancouver), but extrapolating that to China’s population as a whole is an example of selection bias.
August 20th, 2009 at 3:27 pm
oneangryslav
realpaul said:
” The ‘death Panels’ in the states will determine which people are terminal and who will no longer benefit from any type of procedure. here we are letting people who could be saved die, laying unattended in hallways and closets. Shame beyond shame”.
oneangryslav said
” This “death panel” garbage is absolute bullshit. No panel would determine whether “granny dies” or not.”
When our family member was in hospital recently , they discussed the “Will not resucitate” possibility. We had presumed they wanted us to sign a form. No, this was not a option on our part , it would be more of a given on the hospitals part if the situation got to that point. IMHO, That’s a death panel. (However, the patient is at home for the most part, and reasonably mobile).
BTW not attempting anything more than a debate. Unfortunately many of us will be part of the sandwich generation with elderly relatives that lived longer than their parents. Health care needs and subsequent costs will rise, with fewer taxpayers to fund it. I recall the ratio was once 10:1(of taxpayer to beneficiary)….now its down to 3:1 ? and getting worse ?
This type of age demographic bubble was forecast years ago. Call them what you will, but I foresee more and more “mortal” civil servants in health care will end up playing “God” and creating ever shifting demarcation points related to budgets.
I have also heard stories from health care professionals that if the patient has assest such as a house, they will be forced to sell and pay their own health care, it is NOT universal.
August 20th, 2009 at 3:45 pm
NO -LYMPICS:
“An MD once stated that the vast majority of health care per capita is spent in the last 2 years of one’s life.
That same fate could eventually await us all.”
Sounds like a great idea to me. Why in the world would the medical system start a chemotheraphy regime on a person who is 75yrs old??
August 20th, 2009 at 3:59 pm
atomicfrog:
#62 Don’t blame the Chinese for the underground economy. That market is definatley colour/creed free. The real problem in Canada is that people are over taxed and they are revolting. The government waste and corruption (Canadian style) is unconsionable. The real cost of living is so high that people can’t make a go of it after taxes so who can blame them for trying to shield a few dollars from the gov.
Don’t blame the tax cheats blame the system that cheats us all.
August 20th, 2009 at 4:08 pm
NO -LYMPICS: NO_LYMPICS – depending on the type and grade of the tumor and the overall health of the patient, treatment can be worse than doing nothing.
August 20th, 2009 at 4:09 pm
NO -LYMPICS:
#68 NO, that is my understanding as well. The’death panel’ doesn’t have the power to arbtrarily cancel granny’s surgery but it takes form insidiously wherein the facility and doctors begin to ‘suggest’ that death is inevitable and resources are better allocated elesewhere. The idea is to save the expense of prolonging life unnessecarily through counselling the patient rather than treating them aggressivley.
August 20th, 2009 at 4:13 pm
Vancouverite:
#69 V, I think the number is $200,000 CDN ti immigrate to Canada under the business category. It is obviously impossible to set up any kind of business in Vancouver for that amount so in fact its just a scam. Ergo, a lot of so called immigrants with limited funds all driving rented cars and sharing clothes.
August 20th, 2009 at 4:23 pm
#72 No-Olympics. WTF are you talking about? – “I have also heard stories from health care professionals that if the patient has assest such as a house, they will be forced to sell and pay their own health care, it is NOT universal.” I have many beefs with our system, but this statement is total BS. As for your family member with cancer, my 90 year old father was given extensive radiation treatment for his cancer because chemo and surgery tend to be TOO RISKY for eldery folks, especially when they are weakened by a serious illness such as cancer. He beat the cancer after a 14 week series of treatments.
Next person who thinks the “Death Panel” myth is real needs to be banned for being terminally stupid.
August 20th, 2009 at 4:40 pm
77 X realpaul Says:
August 20th, 2009 at 4:13 pm
Vancouverite:
#69 V, I think the number is $200,000 CDN ti immigrate to Canada under the business category.
=====
It was my understanding that when the BC’s Asian boom started in the 1980′s, investment (of around $200,000) was a requirement “to buy your way in”. It was not supposed to allow Real Estate as an eligible investment, certainly not residential RE.
However, my further understanding was that was waived,thus RE investment would be deemed an eligible investment , hence our massive B.C. RE bubble in the late 1980′s.
I can still recall pre Expo 86 that a house on a big lot on the West Side near 41st and Granville could be had for less than $250,000, or a Richmond home for just over $100,000. It doubled and tripled before 1990 rolled around.
I can’t recall any offshore investment that was new and created real middle class jobs such as manufacturing. All we got was a regurgitative ponzi scheme where we buy Hong Kong, then mainland Chinese products, then they come over here with their profits and buy our RE. These cheap Asian goods lured us into a false sense of fiscal security, (aka cost of living has gone down)as our RE was sold out via policy subsidization. Even ol’ Trudeau once had controls of foreign ownership.
As per usual our Gov’ts were lobbied by special interest groups(realturds and banksters) to sell us out. Perhaps the more recent bubble is a realization that the Asia tap has run out and we need to lure domestically born and bred greater fools.
August 20th, 2009 at 4:58 pm
Post 78
Who pissed in your corn flakes?
What advantage is there in making this up? These are anecdotes. It’s not the first time I have heard of a fiscal means test for health care. Do you know first hand that it is BS ? I had an RN tell me this, (ie if granny has a million dollar home and seeks an old folks home, she better sell her home and use that to pay for it, the public won’t) and heard it from a couple of other parties.
I hope it is BS.
As I stated, the health care system will be increasingly on life support. It will be more costly and concurrently less universal. The front end of the baby boom is retiring.
Dentists are complaining they have 14% fewer patient visits and blaming the economy.
BTW: I’m glad your 90 year old Dad recovered.
August 20th, 2009 at 5:28 pm
$3B shortfall challenges B.C. finance minister
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/briti.....ansen.html
As government revenues plunge, B.C. taxpayers should brace themselves for a “very, very difficult” budget in two weeks, Finance Minister Colin Hansen is warning.
The government is desperately trying to maintain key services, but a $3-billion shortfall is making that a real challenge, Hansen said.
“We are desperately trying to maintain the critical services in health care and education and the social services. So it’s definitely been a challenging summer,” the finance minister said Wednesday.
In the last three months, British Columbia has faced a financial whipsaw, he said, including:
Corporate income tax and personal income tax revenue — down by about $1 billion.
Projected revenue from natural gas — down by about $500 million.
Projected revenue from other natural resources — down by about $500 million.
Projected revenue from the social services tax — down by about $200 million.
Spending on forest fires and social services — up by about $500 million.
Addendum:
On News Hansen says Gov’t projections indicate deficit for at least 2 years. More indication the HST is a pay off meets cash grab.
Also: 1300 Auto workers called back to work whooppeeee !
August 20th, 2009 at 5:45 pm
seems that craigslist rental prices are dropping esp. in downtown or kits area. also, basement suits are a lot cheaper now. not to say LOTS and LOTS of choices around.
August 20th, 2009 at 6:08 pm
$375 / 1br – Very Mini-house Small 10×10 (richmond)
http://vancouver.en.craigslist.....21057.html
This mini-house was originally built as place to rest outside our house,,
It is solid and 2 years old with tile roof, stucco ecterior and baseboard heat, it is
10feet by 10feet and have a sink/shower/toilet/hotplate/microwae/tv in same room
very secure with its own enternace, would suite only 1 adult
with minimal belongings,, there is room tohang your clothes
but oviously no room for a sofa or any other furnituresmall bed only
hydro and cable are included and wireless internet
1 minute walk to busstop
August 20th, 2009 at 8:11 pm
#62, isn’t it too bad you don’t know how to avoid taxes like them. It will take you more years of living in Canada to understand how to evade taxes and move ahead in life. That HST will crush a lot of middle class and lower income people but for those collecting cash, it will be life as usual.
August 20th, 2009 at 8:19 pm
http://cosmos-justice.blogspot.....y-and.html
BMO?? guess we’ll wait and see..
Interest rates go up, housing prices comes down, I’ve looked at all the other factors, this is the only thing that will ultimately change the vancouver market. They don’t have to move much and things will get messy. Buyers these days don’t plan for the future , so long as they can pay the mortgage at the end of the month, they figure they are a f#*king real estate guru. My wife and I have been renting and saving for 4 year watching people assume massive amount of debt. best wishes to all those that are not deep in debt and not highly leveraged.
August 20th, 2009 at 8:20 pm
NO -LYMPICS:
#79 NO, don’t forget that the CDN is perpetually in the toilet and that HK dollars , being tied the US buck, fetch a premium over the CDN peso. Hell of a way to treat the CDN’s who built the system on generations of taxes only to be shown the door when the LIBs decided to allow waves of unqualified immigrants in for a free ride on the social, medial and educational system.
The one I like the best are the grandfathers of large families who may have been an engineer in China ( not a professional designation recognized in a CDN work enviornment) retired in China for 20 years is qualified under the points system to immigrate , bring the entire family for the freebies and never intend to work or pay taxes , and due to his age immediately start collecting an old age pension. Nice going Canada. Give aways and freebies to people who have only one reason to come to this country, that is, to leach off the CDN taxpayer who is too stupid to realise whats going on.
In the Chinese community the free money the old ladies get is called ” gambling money’ because its been scammed away from the stupid Quai Lo.
August 20th, 2009 at 9:02 pm
#86 further, have 4 kids ($250 per child) = $1000 monthly. 2 grandparents 65+ (GIS, OAS, to about $1800 roughly?) so basically, monthly income already $2800 before 2 adults working. let say 1 adult works collecting min. wages to about $1800 monthly. A total of $4600/month $55200/year! NO paying taxes of course, NO MSP, get all the benefits you desire!
$4600 – $1500 rent = $3100 LEFT monthly to SPEND. Truly, not bad! May even quality for a fat mortgage with some tweaking.
August 20th, 2009 at 10:14 pm
I am Chinese and do agree about the free ride the Chinese immigrants, rich or poor are getting here. However would like to point out it’s just not the Chinese but also East Indians, Iranians, Phillipinos, all recent immigrants. All they do is inflate our RE and use our social services. It was not like this when I arrived in Canada 45 years ago.
August 21st, 2009 at 1:23 am
NO -LYMPICS: NO. Like you, I’m just engaging in debate, and very willing to listen to all sides. I originally referred to realpaul’s false contention that the new health care legislation in the United States included “death panels.” It does not.
As for the rationing of medical care in British Columbia on the basis of age, I truly don’t know enough to have an informed opinion. I’ve only recently moved back to the province after a 15-year extended hiatus abroad.
Eerily enough, however, at almost the exact minute that I wrote my first post, my dissertation advisor passed away from the effects of pancreatic cancer. I just found out a couple of hours ago. He was 64.
August 21st, 2009 at 7:04 am
89: Pancreatic cancer is as bad as it gets, with a 5% survival rate 5 years after diagnosis. It is likely no amount of treatment would have saved your advisor.
August 21st, 2009 at 11:53 am
Post 86, 87 and 88
Thanks for the info:
I had heard about these sort of benefits being acquired literally once they set foot in Canada.
I didn’t know it was that bad. This just encourages abuse of the system and is a free ride . Why is this allowed ?
I believe another game is played with the Education sytem, whereby if they simply get their Grade 12 Dogwood diploma in BC(as opposed to being here from grades K – 12), they have the same access to post secondary education(ie not deemed international student).