Mortgage papers lost in shuffle
Remember the excitement of the US housing bubble? Property values were shooting up and lenders were throwing money at anything with a pulse. Now that the dust is clearing it seems so silly, but at the time even the ‘professionals’ seemed to think that prices would rise forever without a correction.
One small repercussion of those times is now making itself clear: in the excitement some people forgot to keep track of the records. At least one delinquent borrower has seen their $460,000 mortgage debt disappear, because the mortgage company was unable to prove they owned the loan.
Here in Canada the CMHC doesn’t seem to be heeding the ‘pumping money into the lower end of the market’ lesson from the US, but I doubt we’ll see this particular mistake made here. I bet everyone’s keeping immaculate records.
October 29th, 2009 at 8:54 pm
#41, D, Well I was thinking of the pompous silly dance the generals seem to go on after they retire to promote their books and movies but …..good one dude !!! funny as well.
#40 B, a you provide what as a voyeur?
October 29th, 2009 at 8:17 pm
omg!!!! lmao! drachen, i love you man.
October 29th, 2009 at 7:52 pm
"Militarts" RealPaul? Is that what you get when you mix an army with too much makeup?
October 29th, 2009 at 6:13 pm
fascinating monologue
October 29th, 2009 at 5:22 pm
Canada's phony stimulus wearing off fast. the macro is deteriorating .
http://www.financialpost.com/story.html?id=216017…
October 29th, 2009 at 5:14 pm
PANDEMONIUM IN TORONTO'S MEL LASTMAN SQUARE. CALL OUT THE MILITARTS !!!
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/toronto/…
October 29th, 2009 at 5:07 pm
oh oh , health "professionals' change the story again today. You've been told that vaccine is here, then delayed, now…you're fucked it ain't coming.
Global TV at 5 .
October 29th, 2009 at 4:02 pm
How can the BOC keep the Canadian dollar down when the US has to buy more than 50% of its auctioned treasuries to support its own market ?
One of Canada's smartest investors weighs in.
http://www.sprott.com/Docs/MarketsataGlance/MAAG_…
October 29th, 2009 at 3:26 pm
BOC Gov Carney telegraphs the sucker punch thats coming.
"At a media conference, Mr. Carney said the bank believes, all told, savers will outstrip borrowers, as incomes begin to grow on better job market conditions. He told reporters households should plan their financial affairs “prudently” on the anticipation that interest rates will eventually return to a more normal level."
http://www.leaderpost.com/business/story.html?id=…
October 29th, 2009 at 2:13 pm
#13 I, Boy I'm sure glad I wasn't into those triple short ETFs today.
i was listening to mayor corrigan from BBY today on a 1410 interview. What a breath of fresh air, allmost enough to make me move to BBY. Extolling people to "get Off their knees" and stop letting non elected entities fly out of control. Bravo !!!!
October 29th, 2009 at 10:23 am
sorry about the double post, you want the flu shot story from the G&M
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health/h1n1-s…
October 29th, 2009 at 10:12 am
http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/2010wintergame…
info on harrassment file
October 29th, 2009 at 10:05 am
Theres so much bullshit in the spin cycle this morning it's hard to know hwere to start. Is that the 'plan' the government agencies see so much confusion and panic in the population on so many levels that they just start blurting out information in a hope that the entire mess will hide and absorb their own misdealing? If I was a cheat , a liar and a scumbag I would see these times as an opportunity. What a bettter time to get away with something when people are running for cover? Mortgage scams, civil rights abuses, negiligence all front newsworthy stories, but essentially hidden in the cannon shot barrage of monumental scumbaggery from the supposed 'people in charge.
1) Weren't the yanks torturing prisoners for 'just a little information?' Didn't Canada set up its own citizens for torture flights to Syria and other secret camps for 'information'?
http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/2010wintergame…
What the RCMP have done is shameful and has denegraated the very essence of what the Canadian Charter of Rights and freedoms stand for. At ;east the citizens concerned have been making enough noise to have forced the issue into the public eye and this embarrassment alone has forced the sleaze from under the dark corners and rocks from under which they usually inhabit. As the 30 year veteran RCMP psych said recently ( Dr. Webster) The RCMP is an 'ethics free universe'. We need more people speaking out like Webster.
2)The lies keep coming from the 'health professionals' in a fun package of spin woozy effluvium. " We're victims of our own success" Bwahahahahahahahahahahha
- They screw up from the get go, pretend that the information they're spinning is fooling the people, announce setting up clinics which 'are out of vaccine', hand out flyers directing you to go home and self assess yourself', ' tell you to not visit the emergency wards'and grudgingly admit that ther will be no vaccine available to the public until mid November but then put on a sudden show about 'readiness'. This time, from the reactions of the people who have been interviewed, a lot of people have not been taken in by the bullshit. Apparently when its life and death people clear their heads and start thinking.
Too bad it wasn't the case in the phony real estate scamola eh'?
It's too sad to be funny. But…… have you ever seen so much muck sliding to get out from under having to admit that they've proven to be the biggest collection of fuck ups this country has ever produced.
October 29th, 2009 at 2:33 am
@jesse: From what I've seen of private market rental housing in this city in that price range (or higher), the public housing seems pretty good. The complexes can't be too bad as, from what I've heard, there used to always be a waiting list.
The downside is the income requirements, and apparently you pretty much need children for a two or three bedroom unit…and one bedroom units are rare.
If I was low income with children, I'd totally be there or in a co-op. You'd get connected to various resources and supports, I imagine.
October 29th, 2009 at 1:12 am
@No Longer Looking: Thanks for the MVHC CL ad info. Glad to see they know how to spell! Those are some competitive rents though I don't know the complexes.
October 29th, 2009 at 12:25 am
rental crisis indeed… LOL
October 28th, 2009 at 11:52 pm
Here's another one:
http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/pml/apa/1441997…
$840 for a two bedroom unit in Coquitlam. It even has a gas fireplace and is pet friendly. The speculators are screwed.
October 28th, 2009 at 11:48 pm
Metro Vancouver Housing (ie. public housing) is now advertising on Craigslist:
http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/pml/apa/1442012…
This is the housing mentioned in that Georgia Straight article.
October 28th, 2009 at 9:51 pm
Loss of docs was making news in 2007 when Countrywide went to court for transfer of deed and produced a printout instead. The judge asked for the original and they came back with another printout with the pertinent sections highlighted. That is for a judge the equivalent of someone repeating themselves to a mentally challened fellow by speaking slower and louder. In this case the judge gave title to the original owner and told CW to only come back with the original loan agreement, which they had apparently lost. Ouch. In BC I don't know the requirements but likely a signed piece of paper is needed.
One of my old coworkers signed a mortgage agreement wtht Citizen's Bank a few years back. He found a hole in the wording that would have meant he wouldn't have to pay 1cent back. He even tried to tell the agent but she said there was nothing she could do. I wonder how many other people signed a similar contract and Citizen's Bank got the shaft. I do know they got out of the mortgage business recently.
October 28th, 2009 at 9:28 pm
yup – in tersm of real effects, no, but in terms of fear and hype, yes.
just imagine what is going to happen if we get a mass outbreak in mid-February….
October 28th, 2009 at 8:50 pm
for once, I agree with realpaul
this swine flu could really be the shit that hits the fan
it'll probably kill less people than the normal flu does each and every year but the media is pumping and people out there are starting to freak out
October 28th, 2009 at 8:22 pm
I was roundly criticised on many sites over many months for pounding away at the incompetant health providers for not taking any action on Mexican Flu. Watching the CBC tonight I see that the panic I foresaw is becoming more evident and the governments attempt at crowd control through lies and false information is failing.
Thousands line up for vaccine at clinics that have none to offer. Mothers crying in fear for the lives of their children. Is this the Canada we have paid for for with our outrageous taxes and insane wages/pensions/perks to the so called professionals and civil servants who are supposed to be competant and on the ball.
Many like myself called the bastards out on this 6 months ago when the flood of Mexican cases were allowed to flood into Canada unchecked. I was shocked when the government started to announce the fact that it was downplaying the epidemic sweeping thorough the population and went on to hide the real impact of cases and deaths.
They had 6 months notice to produce a viable tested vaccine and distribution program that they knew was coming and yet failed to act for reasons of 'keeping the population calm'. well theres nothing calmer than piles of dead bodies is there.
Government spokes persons keep showing pictures and talking about clinics being set up but that is all just lies to keep the population from exploding in anger. meanwhile the the number of cases is beginning to overwhelm the Hospitals and people are being turned away to perhaps die without care.
Shame on Canadian health professionals for letting this fiasco develop in front of your face after you knew months in advance that this what happening. Shame for the constant attempts to cover up the mistakes. Shame for telling people that vaccine is being administered at clinics in BC that will have no stock until mid November. Shame shame shame all around.
Having been right gives me no sense of pride. People are dying, its a goddamned shame.
I know you all are going to hate me for posting this uncomfortable truth. Bite me. Shame on anyone who trusts the government to do the right thing.
October 28th, 2009 at 5:50 pm
The current market by all accounts is being ‘overstimulated’
Good point…and on the backs of seniors who will stay home from the coffee shops, casinos, airports and golf courses because their interest income has plummeted.
October 28th, 2009 at 5:49 pm
Well, the larger landlords in this city are starting to understand the current nature of the rental market. I've seen dozens of listings with "MOVE IN BONUS" in capital letters on Craigslist. The apecuvestor accidental landlord, however, remains oblivious to it all.
Some interesting ads on there, which make one think if the landlords are money-savvy at all. For example, a basement suite being advertised near QE Park, which has been empty since September 1st at least. It has obviously been rented out for the Olympics as the landlords are seeking to rent the place until January 31st.
But, the place has yet to be rented, and for the price they're charging I can't see anyone renting the place for only 3 months. Anyway, by not having rented the place to a long-term tenant, and assuming it continues to remain empty until the Olympic renters move in, the landlords will have lost 5 months of rental income, not to mention that it may take them some time to find a long-term tenant post-Olympics. (Maybe they'll be one of those who'll try to sell the place instead.) Anyway, it's hard to believe that the income they'll be making will be equivalent to 6 months of normal rental income–5 months withou a tenant, and the one month of normal rental income that they would have received for February.
October 28th, 2009 at 5:45 pm
Just FYI heres an example of a Canadian company with a similar beta profile but I have included more information than is provided by the Yahoo site. Depending on when you bought/buy this company you could be in the black or the red. Personally I think this is the best company for security of income of any of the five examples and currently the return is fair secure, but anything can happen and we could see additional principal deterioration without changes to the dividend? Another question when buying US issues is how you accounting for the Forex gains or losses, the holdback commissions and the tax filing expenses into your renumeration expectations.
MANITOBA TELECOM SERVICES INC., $33.35, Toronto symbol MBT, gets about 70% of its earnings and cash flow from the province of Manitoba, where it is the main supplier of traditional and wireless telephone services. The company’s wholly owned subsidiary, Allstream, sells telecom services to businesses across Canada.
In the first quarter of 2009, Manitoba Telecom’s revenue rose 0.9%, to $482.9 million from $478.8 million a year earlier. The gain was mainly caused by strong demand for wireless and high-speed Internet services. These growth areas account for 47% of Manitoba Telecom’s revenue, and continue to offset lower revenue from its traditional phone services. As well, the recession drove down demand at Allstream, particularly for its long-distance services. This lowered the subsidiary’s revenue by 0.1%.
Despite the higher overall revenue, Manitoba Telecom’s earnings fell 15.5%, to $45.9 million, or $0.71 a share. The company earned $54.3 million, or $0.84 a share, a year earlier. Lower long-distance volumes at Allstream were the main reason for the drop.
In response to the lower earnings, Manitoba Telecom is aiming to save $50 million to $60 million on an annual basis, mainly by cutting 160 more jobs at Allstream. Last year, Allstream eliminated 170 positions. This new range is up from its previous target of $35 million to $45 million.
Lower costs will let Manitoba Telecom keep paying quarterly dividends of $0.65 a share, for an annual yield of 7.8%.
So as you can see everything seems just fine…..is it? So why aren't institutions falling all over themselves to buy into the many deals like this available today? It's that nasty p&l debate between actual and forecast.
October 28th, 2009 at 4:31 pm
#16 C, but also consider the beta on those same stocks YTD as shown on the longer term charts. Bit of a crapshoot for a conservative investor, ya think? They all show a history of being able to crash pretty spectacularily without a rising tide underneath them. We could also use many CDN issues ( which 99% of CDN's) hold in their RRSPs which have swung wildly. They have performed similarily to the US counterparts.
The current market by all accounts is being 'overstimulated' as evidenced by the low volumes of the highs. The real money is on the side because they still don't see any evidence of an improvement in earnings prospects. The likelyhood of another big dip will rip more principal away from those who are trying to recover by averaging down. Buying in is a gamble at this point. IMHO, but believe me I wish all the luck in the world.
October 28th, 2009 at 4:24 pm
Governments do documentation well?
I've just been asked for details pertaining to the incorporation of our business, details which were already faxed in twice, in May and July.
Same goes for our annual remittance of GST. Were repeatedly asked for payment last year until I sent them the actual cheque with their CRA stamp on the back.
It's one big clumsy beast.
October 28th, 2009 at 1:25 pm
Stock market bubble?! Only gambling or zero returns? Really?
Here are four blue chip companies off the top of my head with P/E's below 15 and dividend yields between 2.7% – 7.6%. And the currently overvalued CAD makes them even better.
http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=JNJ,PG,MO,GE&d=s
October 28th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
@/dev/null: I'm agree with you that the markets are extremely overvalued right now. They have been for a few months, at least. The problem with double- (and triple-) short ETFs is that they should only be held for the very short-term as the constant re-balancing on a daily basis inexorably leads the funds to become worthless in the long-term.
The problem with any asset bubble is knowing when it'll pop. I fear that the amount of money governments are throwing around to keep asset values propped up will put a bid under the market for a little while longer. Having said that, there could be a crash tomorrow. Who knows? One of the signals I use to look at intermediate-term tops and bottoms is contrary indicators of market sentiment. But everything is gamed now and the market-makers, who are even more powerful now than before–can throw the masses a head-fake or two every now and then.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:22 pm
#13 I, Thats the situation isn't it , absolute gambling or absolute zero returns, no middle ( conservative) ground. Safe tradfitional bets in conservative blue chips lead to principal loss and your idea is subject to the laws of chance leading to total loss. For the conservative investor both are unacceptable. I like your chutzpah though, I hope you win.
But what is going on with all the people who are suffering under the current zero return regime ie all the seniors or persons on fixed income who will see no COLA adjustments.
The government would love the seniors to start pouring the savings they have into risky investments . That would lock in the crystalized capital gains of a lifetime of savings and instantly push them into a much higher tax bracket. I am firmly convinced that the government is involved in a game of chicken with investors to see how long they can last without earning intrest income before they are forced to begin canabilizing their savings.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
@realpaul: RP – why not go with the flow? Buy double-short ETFs and do it in USD – double speculation! (We can all check back in a few months to see how stupid I was for doing that. As my first ever gamble it's a doozy.)
October 28th, 2009 at 11:52 am
Mish considers, "Is a home an investment?":
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2009/1…
October 28th, 2009 at 11:40 am
@Symplectic:
I was thinking about that…I used to worry about investing in banks, but now, why worry? Canadian banks will prosper forever. Housing bubble pops? No problem! The banks can just show up at the CMHC and take back all the funds they made in bad loans. How could they lose? No wonder Canadian banks are seen as the strongest in the world…no wonder when the government will just repay all those bad loans, no questions asked. Too bad it's the poor taxpayer who will get shafted.
October 28th, 2009 at 11:28 am
Goverments create new bubble says Roubini
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/inv…
Cash is King even though it pays nothing now the asset bubble beta has a greater chance of sucking back more principal than the opportunity cost delta model alternative of current conditions. Pay back is coming.
and, did anyone buy Canada savings Bonds this year? It's the season ! Bwahahahahahaha .40% Bwahahahahahahahahaha , the moneys better kept in a shoebox.
October 28th, 2009 at 11:28 am
@Yalie: Yeah, have you ever thought the existence of federalized mortgage insurance actually makes our financial system more robust?
October 28th, 2009 at 11:22 am
Norway breaks ranks with EU and raises interest rates.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business…
Funny how this item didn't make the Van Scum
October 28th, 2009 at 11:21 am
The real fraud here is the existence of the CMHC itself. Everyone knows they have created a huge ponzi scheme – the banks, mortgage companies, the government AND the opposition parties – but nobody will do anything until it comes crashing down. Then we'll be hearing that old phrase again: "Nobody saw this coming".
October 28th, 2009 at 11:18 am
#1 M.
They are very good at documentation when it comes to chasing YOU down but have a rather suspicious record of 'disappearing emails' and 'shredding documents accidentally or because they were deemed no longer necessary" in any case where anyone tries to nail their asses to the wall. If it ever comes to a point where a case can be lodged any government docs will be stamped 'Privelaged' or 'Security' or other such bollocks.
My bet is that the whole mess gets back loaded onto the taxpayer.
October 28th, 2009 at 9:49 am
Drachen Says:
October 28th, 2009 at 9:02 am
I just hope they have the documentation to prove fraud against many of these borrowers and lenders when the other shoe drops. Putting the wrong number on a stated income loan is fraud as is encouraging and assisting someone in filing an inflated stated income.
———————-
One wonders whether such fraudulent applications would invalidate an individual's CMHC insurance, in the same way it would with, for example, with car insurance? Who would be liable in that case, the home"owner" or the bank?
October 28th, 2009 at 9:03 am
You can bet they are keeping good records. The in the US they went crazy with fraud: many mortgages were non-recourse and the originators were selling them off. In Canada you are *on the hook* to the banks and the government. There is no escape from those guys.
October 28th, 2009 at 9:02 am
I just hope they have the documentation to prove fraud against many of these borrowers and lenders when the other shoe drops. Putting the wrong number on a stated income loan is fraud as is encouraging and assisting someone in filing an inflated stated income.
At least then I won't feel quite so bad about the higher tax burden to pay off their housing debts.
October 28th, 2009 at 8:34 am
Another thing they do is pass the debt on to the good citizens that didn't mindlessly over extend themselves. After the crash this is what I fear.
October 28th, 2009 at 7:16 am
CMHC might be huge, inefficient and introduce plenty of moral hazards, but if government can do one thing right, it's documentation.