Friday Free-for-all!
It’s the end of the week, so lets do our economic news round up and open topic discussion. Here are a few stories I’ve noticed lately:
-September new home prices up more than expected
-Canada vs. USA – the new realty
-Putting all your retirement money into your house?
-Home improvement stores fear end of tax credit
-Metro builders ease off discounts in hot market
-Olympic rental scams on the rise
-Canadians are slaves to credit
-Canada Line on track to lose millions over next 15 years
-Conference Board: BC to get gold in 2010.
-The Conference Board prediction from 2008 is here.
-Critics blast condo / stadium mix
-Limp demand will create weak Canadian market
-The carry trade and ‘bubble like conditions’
-only 5% of Americans plan to buy a home in 2010
So what are you seeing out there? A boom reborn or a double dip recession? Post your news links, thoughts and anecdotes here and have an excellent weekend!
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I,m First Says:
November 12th, 2009 at 10:00 pm
Still time to sell, do it now!
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domus Says:
November 12th, 2009 at 10:22 pm
Just talked with an American guy. He didn’t know that the Canadian market was booming, he thought we were in the same boat as the US. First thing he asked me is whether the economy is still booming: no, I said, we are just doing as bad as the US in terms of GDP growth and unemployment. OK, maybe a tad better, but not much. Obviously his next question was: how can the market boom if unemployment is high? What would you have answered? The big C (stand for CMHC….or credit…..Canadian government….pick your favorite).
Whatever it is, they are monetizing private liabilities and trying to have a bout of inflation. I hope they fail.
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rp Says:
November 12th, 2009 at 11:18 pm
It’s an interesting experiment to see if they do fail to create inflation. They are certainly trying. The Fed and Obama have killed the US dollar though monetization and scary finances, which should produce higher prices due to energy there. Meanwhile the massive carry trade they’ve started could potentially create asset bubbles everywhere else in the world. I don’t think it will work.
In fact, I think it will come crashing down terribly. I’m thinking: limit exposure to all expenses such as food, energy, taxes, etc, ake household savings close to the max. Build a mountain of cash and prepare to hunker down and be able to spend little or no money on short notice. I expect shocks in the price of food, energy, everything – one at a time but not all at once. I think it will do to the economy what an earthquake does to a house. So I’m waiting for the other shoe(s) to drop. After all, none of the underlying problems in the financial system were fixed, the people responsible have doubled up on bad behaviour, and they’ve been given the government’s checkbook. What do you think?
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Ted Says:
November 12th, 2009 at 11:21 pm
@I,m First: No,no,no! I’m encouraging everyone to buy.
There’s still time to buy!
I want this thing to overcorrect hard, the best way for that to happen is to get more suckers on the boat before it sinks.
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Anonymous Says:
November 12th, 2009 at 11:24 pm
@rp: I understand how buying a house in the face of high inflation could actually make sense in the US, where you can lock into rock bottom rates for the entire term of your mortgage, but in Canada you can get a max of what, 10 year term?!?
Where are rates going to be in 5 or 10 years, and why can’t you lock in for full term rates in this country?
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rp Says:
November 12th, 2009 at 11:59 pm
You can lock in for 18 years or so, but the rates are high. It’s the nature of being a smaller country with a flexible exchange rate.
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Supraboy Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 12:50 am
Bill Gates and Warren Buffett said the worst is over.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/.....amp;ccode=
Now how many of you will vote this down just because it’s a fact? I bet 90% of you bears are still in denial. You know you’re missing out on a fire sale.
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scullboy Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 1:12 am
Bill Gates also said 640K should be enough memory for anybody.
Now STFU Supratard, nobody cares what you think.
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Anonymous Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 3:44 am
Vancouver Sun claims:
‘B.C. economy will grow fastest in 2010, report says’
http://www.vancouversun.com/bu.....story.html
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Boombust Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 7:19 am
“Just talked with an American guy. He didn’t know that the Canadian market was booming…”
And? What else didn’t he know?
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The Pope Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 8:00 am
@Anonymous: The conference board forecast for BC in 2010 is pretty rosy. Don’t forget to check out their track record
you can find info on how the Canadian GDP is faring so far here.
2009 Q1 = -2.31%
2009 Q2 = -3.23%
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happyday Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 8:33 am
Happy Friday the 13th!
may all your dream(home)s come true whatever that is…
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Warren Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 8:50 am
Far too much of a negative slant in here to have any constructive discussion. “Vancouver Sun claims”. Riiiiight.
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realpaul Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 9:39 am
#9 The Conferance Board report in the Sun is a nice fluff piece and guarantees that everything is priced to perfection including a big boost from the post Olympic crush to get into the best place on earth. BTW I have nice bridge for sale.
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Dave Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 9:44 am
Suncor to invest $1.5billion for new oil sands projects next year
http://www.vancouversun.com/Su.....story.html
The high tech business in Victoria alone contributes over $2 billion to our economy.
http://www.timescolonist.com/V.....story.html
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scullboy Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 10:34 am
Dave:
I’ll believe it when I see it. How do they develop that number? How do they define “hi tech”? Can anyone name a single “hi tech” office housed in Victoria?
Sorry, the story there seems to be “Someone wrote a paper with unsubstantiated claims.” And actually the story is that the industry generates 2 billion in revenue, NOT that it contributes 2 billion to the local economy.
Big, big difference.
Sorry dude. Fail.
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buff_butler Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 10:47 am
@Dave: Dave an interesting take on the numbers however revenue is total cash recieved and does not include expenses. The suncor investment represents 1.5b working capital therefore would be income not revenue. For comparison suncor’s revenue in 2008 was 30.1b…. The aggrigate oilsands being many times that.
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Mount Baker Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 10:59 am
“….Bill Gates and Warren Buffett said the worst is over.
Now how many of you will vote this down just because it’s a fact? I bet 90% of you bears are still in denial. You know you’re missing out on a fire sale…… ”
Ya, what would the two richest guys in the world have to gain by syaing that everything is rosy?
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other ted Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 11:43 am
that canada vs usa new realty article is really bad. First off shouldn’t an editor proof read it. But what a crock of sh$t the article is. So supposedly lending here is so much more conservative and canadians don’t” buy more house than they can chew”. That must explain all of my coworkers and friends who think a half a million dollar house is cheap. The article states how in the early 90’s the canadian woman couldn’t get a loan with only 15% down. I honestly thought it was gonna flash forward to the present where teh same woman could put nothing down. But no the comparison was with the US a few years back. I think we have more in common with the US a few years ago than with ourselves 15 years ago.
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Tony Pepe Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 11:59 am
From ING’s CEO
http://www.yourhome.ca/homes/r.....ing-bubble
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Dave Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 12:05 pm
@buff_butler:
Not sure what your point is here. I never said it was net income. I said it was the total investment.
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crabman Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
@Dave: Not sure what *your* point is here. Some BC companies are making money, investing and contributing to the economy. Therefore….????
@Tony Pepe: Nice find. Too bad he wimps out at the end saying “Despite his concerns, Aceto maintained that the Canadian economy is in much better shape than the U.S., where zero-down and longer amortizations created a massive housing bubble.”
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swirlyman Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 12:44 pm
This week’s Georgia Straight contains a major Vancouver RE puff piece…
http://straight.com/article-27.....k?page=0,0
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Drachen Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 12:56 pm
@scullboy:
PMD (precision micro-devices)
ACD (I don’t know what it stands for, developers of ACD-See)
My brother in law’s friend started one for tech support, it has 40 or so employees but I don’t know the name.
There, that’s not so hard right? There really is quite a bit of High tech in Victoria for it’s size. The problem is the prices THERE are lower than HERE, so if they’ve got all that good stuff going for them (much higher wages, etc.) and THEIR prices are too high, what’s keeping it going here? (other than Wyle E Coyote physics)
Don’t look down Vancouver… Don’t look down.
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Dave Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 1:18 pm
@Drachen:
A couple more:
Carmanah. Falcon Software.
BC is an attractive place to live for technology workers. Despite some recent job losses at EA, I think this industry will keep growing over time. Victoria now has direct flights to San Francisco which speaks to the level of high tech industry in that region.
That $2 billion estimate was conservative and probably doesn’t count all the one off home based companies, which is very significant.
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Dave Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 1:21 pm
@crabman:
Investment is a good leading indicator to consider.
More investment = more jobs = GDP growth = strong real estate market.
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realpaul Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
Presto instant ecomomies. China GDP belies that fact. If consumer prices go down or if consumer habits retrench, Oh Oh spagettio, the Great Wall of Bullshit will coming tumbling down. Manufactred crap don’t make an economy when the other guy stops buying it. What happens to Chinas GDP if they have to rely on their own consumers who are making the princely sum of 1 dollar a day?
This is like our government pumping up the bogus economy they have created with phony dollars that will have to paid for in the future.Bullllllllllshiiiiiiiiiitttttt
http://www.zerohedge.com/artic.....ost-cities
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crabman Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 1:55 pm
@Dave:
Overbuilt housing market + overextended borrowers + post Olympic slowdown + rising interest rates = ???.
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Dave Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
@crabman:
Major drop in new construction + Economic recovery + continued low interest rates + continued strong immigration + strong housing demand = don’t hold your breath on a real estate correction
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Drachen Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 2:16 pm
@Dave:
Ok, one at a time;
Construction: Meh, we’re overbuilt already, a drop in new construction won’t cause prices to go up. And… If it did cause prices to go up new construction would go up (duh!).
Economic recovery: Well this is premised on real estate NOT collapsing in Canada. Circular argument.
Continued Low interest rates: BOC says they’ll raise rates in the summer. Where do you get any evidence to support this assumption?
Continued strong immigration: Immigration is weak. Has been for some time. Percentage-wise we are at a low point for immigration to BC, not a high point.
Strong housing demand: Again, circular argument, you’re putting the cart before the horse.
So… 0 out of 5… About par for you. 3 wrong answers + 2 answers that are only true if your conclusion is true = Dave
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Dave Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 2:26 pm
@Drachen:
Wrong? Hardly. Read em and weep:
http://vancouvercondo.info/200.....e-yet.html
How are your predictions doing again?
Future supply is going to be slow to recover because of the lag time in housing starts and housing completions. A year ago, we had a major drop in new starts and that is only now starting to recover. We will see this lack of supply show up in about another year.
Real estate didn’t collapse and the US is now out of the recession. We will follow.
Money is cheap. It’s almost free. Short term rates have room to go up, while still keeping money cheap.
Immigration has been strong. Google that yourself but recent newspaper articles have referenced the data.
Did I mention that wage growth is strong as well?
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Drugs "R" Us Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 2:39 pm
What wage growth???
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gork Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 3:02 pm
Dave,here some seasonally adjusted BC unemployment data points:
Jan 08: 4.4%
Jan 09: 6.1%
Sep 09: 7.4%
Oct 09: 8.3%
see a pattern there?
Also how do you define a ’strong real estate market’ that you think we’ll see here? An ever rising market or one that’s more like Switzerland/Germany?
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gork Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 3:10 pm
Dave, would also be interested in which sectors the wage growth you mention is happening. Maybe the average wage is going up because a lot of folks with lower wages got laid off?
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Drachen Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 3:27 pm
@Dave:
My predictions are still on track actually, thanks for asking.
In the late ’80s and early ’90s net population growth in BC was in the 100k range, in the last 5 years it’s been in the 50k range. So, weak population growth.
See data HERE
“money is cheap, it might stay that way” (to paraphrase you) is hardly an argument, more of a daydream really.
“Real estate didn’t collapse and the US is now out of the recession. We will follow.” Again, you say these things like they’re facts when many of the top economists in Canada doubt that’s true and many of the top economists in the United States think they may re-lapse into recession in 2010. Wholly unsubstantiated off the cuff remarks are your hallmark but get serious here, try to at least find SOMETHING other than hot air to support your statements.
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Drachen Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 3:54 pm
Also, between 1998 and 2007 wages in BC increased 19.3%.
During that same time period we experienced 22.7% inflation.
So… REAL wages aren’t growing at all, they’re shrinking.
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Drachen Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 3:55 pm
@gork:
Dave never accounts for inflation in his calculations. You have to take that into consideration when you’re reading anything he’s posted.
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curious Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 4:34 pm
where are VHB and freako? … proud homeowners.
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YLTNBoomerang Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 5:09 pm
I’m a little confused as to why rates are so low in Canada right now – can some econ star explain to me?
When dot.bomb blew up, rates were dropped to stimulate a recovery and people flocked to tangible investments like housing hence the next bubble. When this bubble popped in the US, UK, etc. rates slammed back down to try and stimulate spending again and to stop people from losing their homes – our housing market stayed bubbly and BOC predicted no recession so why did we drop rates, just because big brother did? While this has served to stop the bubble from bursting, are we gonig to have to wait 5 years for the mortgages of those last to the table to reset to finally see it pop? Are we going to have 5 years of stagnation?
It pretty much seems that the instant gratification the world today requires has made us dependant on bubble economies so we will see a new bubble – is it gold? is it greentech? I have no idea but my next question is whether we will be able to profit from the next bubble if the current one does not burst? What if, for example, the rest of the world begins to inflate a great big greentech bubble like the dot.coms of 2000, will Vancouver be left out of the game as our existing bubble has left the city to expensive to participate in the next one?
Sorry for the randomness…
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Anonymous Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 5:16 pm
same here, YLTNBoomerang.
Canada is a resource based economy just like Australia, and both countries are now benefiting from China’s thirst for metals and energy. Australia has hiked their rates, but we are still post-Bush, post-Greenspan and pro-helicopter-Ben.
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Drachen Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 5:56 pm
@YLTNBoomerang:
“are we gonig to have to wait 5 years for the mortgages of those last to the table to reset to finally see it pop?”
No, because people won’t be able to afford to buy once rates go up, it MIGHT mean it will take up to 5 years to really play out but it won’t stop a burst on a shorter term.
BOC dropped rates to stimulate economic activity and I suspect to keep the housing market propped up until the Cons can get another shot at a majority (they wish).
Gold is already in a bubble.
Maybe green, maybe the new biotech, maybe “nanotech” (and people who claim they’re working with nanotech since the real thing doesn’t exist yet).
You can always profit from a bubble. But most people don’t. The trick to buying/selling in a volatile market is to buy when everyone else is selling and sell when everyone else is buying (and never never look back and say “I could have made 20% more if I’d held on ’till the peak”). Buy low sell high. If you try to buy at the lowest and sell at the highest you will get burned more often than not.
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Anonymous Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 6:51 pm
Everyone seems concerned that interest rates may stay low for a while, keeping house prices high for who-knows-how-long.
In fact, the opposite is true. Continued ultralow interest rates will just exacerbate the situation, making the crash even worse.
Why? I believe it was Patriotz who pointed out, several weeks ago, the concept of “elasticity of supply”. That basically means that whenever prices of a given item vastly exceed the cost to produce it, supply tends to ramp up to to the point where the supply curve shifts, and, voila, prices drop.
Think about it: right now it costs about 100-200k per unit in labour and materials to build an average apartment unit (Olympic Village fiasco notwithstanding). If they’re selling for 400k, it doesn’t take a genius to figure out that there’s a massive profit to be made for each one.
Developers have noticed this, which is why they are all clamoring to restart project that were put on hold a year ago. This will continue, guaranteed. As long as interest rates stay low, they have a huge financial incentive to build, build, build.
And once the oversupply gets big enough, kaboom, it’s over. This is exactly what happened in Japan 20 years ago, an more recently Miami, LA, and Phoenix.
Low interest rates are NOT going to make prices go higher – quite the opposite.
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dingbat Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 6:54 pm
While we’ll be due for a rate hike come July/August 2010, I tend to believe that it will be 10-20 years before rates will be “significantly” higher than it is today. It’s not something that can be easily switched on and off. Raising rates too fast, and our banks will see foreclosures which puts themselves at risk. That said, I’m hardly an economist. Perhaps someone can shed light on what drives interest rates up (besides keeping up with the US and rest of the World).
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stagnate Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 7:01 pm
YLT, interest rates aren’t particularly low, consider the inflation rate has been hovering around zero. yes the government authorities have played a role in countering the credit crunch, given the amount of debt out there an argument can be made that credit markets should have stayed seized. the government has an interest in reflation; shouldn’t be a big suprise to anyone that it’s business as usual. i agree with your musing that an inflationary shock is unlikely to benefit vancouver that much. deflation is a longshot. indeed five years of stagnation is on the menu.
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BBY Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 8:13 pm
@dingbat:
“…tend to believe that it will be 10-20 years before rates will be “significantly” higher than it is today. It’s not something that can be easily switched on and off. Raising rates too fast, and our banks will see foreclosures which puts themselves at risk.”
But Canadian banks do not fear foreclosure because Canada has the CMHC to backstop the banks through mortgage insurance, and then, Canadian taxpayers. Criminally Minded Housing Con.
Rates can’t easily be switched on or off? Rates went up really fast in the early 80’s. The system is a balancing act and I suspect events can set up a wild oscillation, no matter how much better(?) the BOC tries to control it.
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Purp Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 8:31 pm
I’m curious about the relationship between the rate set by the central bank which sets variable mortgage rates and the bond market which controls the long term fixed rates. Some folks are predicting a rise in long term rates due to the massive government borrowing. If fixed rates went up, would that drive gov’t to raise the prime rate? How this scenario would play out is not clear to me, any econ geniuses out there?
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jesse Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 8:42 pm
@YLTNBoomerang:
I’m hardly a “star” but I’ll take a stab at it. Long term rates are low because of two possible reasons. The first is that inflation is expected to be low for some time. The second, slightly related, reason is that there is lots of saving and little investing. What that means is that a large proportion of money is being invested (“saved”) in safe instruments like government debt, which is driving down interest rates on that debt. Usually other private investments will compete with government bonds and drive up yields but for the most part private investments are currently not popular with investors. That is why governments can run huge deficits and still finance them on the cheap.
When will this turn around? One possibility is that inflation increases, brought on by a shift in government monetary policy, forcing long term yields up; the other is a rebound in private investment that will force governments to compete at higher rates.
On a related note, if you have lots of money in the bank, what do you think the bank is doing with it? They are trying to spend it, but on stuff that’s low risk. Mortgages seem to qualify as low risk. Do you know where your money sleeps at night?
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stagnate Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 8:49 pm
purp, no one knows for sure, we’re sort of in uncharted territory. interest rates are an uneasy mix of government intervention and bond markets. likely government intervention will increase over the foreseeable future, how it’s going to look to joe smith walking into a bmo is hard to say.
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Ulsterman Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 9:36 pm
@stagnate:
Thank you stagnate – that’s the most sensible answer i’ve read to a post in a long time. No one knows for sure. Many here claim that because of this or that stat, rate, whatever, the market will turn around for SURE this time. The one thing that seems certain is that none of rules appear to be working in the manner we thought they would.
No one here figured our market could withstand and actually rebound amidst the US and world meltdown. Yes, the Gov of Canada bailed the system out with CMHC and bad debt purchases from the banks’ books, BUT who knows when this type of “rule breaking / bending” will stop? Maybe there will be enough messing with the system by the Fed / BOC / IMF etc to prevent this mess from correcting our markets for the next 3, 5, 10, 15 years. If this is so, then I will never own or pay off a house before i retire. Continuing to pay rent when i’m on a pension won’t be fun. Life’s tough enough when i have an above-average income.
Here’s hoping…
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Drachen Says:
November 13th, 2009 at 11:09 pm
@dingbat:
Rates are based on the BOC overnight. The charter banks adjust to that depending on the risk of the loan but the core rate is set by the government.
Here’s a primer
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kansai_92 Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 12:14 am
So they’re predicting 6% increase for next 12 months.
The average person can save every single penny of his disposable income and he will never catch up to that kind of appreciation.
When does Vancouver hit the glass ceiling in terms of affordability.
Has it really become the next Monaco?
If so, where are the European royalty?
Hard for a bear to do anything other than hibernate and wait until after the Olympics and HST before poking his head out of the cave.
Insanity now, insanity now!
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patriotzed Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 1:24 am
@Dave:
“High Tech” in Victoria consists almost entirely of contractors doing software and database work for the provincial government. They are not producing anything that is sold on the open market, and like the local civil servants their contribution to the Victoria economy is simply at the expense of BC taxpayers.
Real high tech in Victoria is in even worse shape than in Vancouver, and for the same reason – the city is too expensive for businesses to be competitive.
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other ted Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 1:35 am
Sometimes I wonder why I check up on real estate blogs since i have no intention of buying anytime soon. Then i get a reminder why every now and then like what happened today. Again another talk with my mother, apparently i was wrong I should have jumped in when the market bottomed out last year. i missed out and will never own. People who took on more debt like my sister to the tune of 600k on top of what they owned were smart. And apparently my mother has heard of no one who has lost on real estate.
I know the market heated up again. but looking where my sister bought in coquitlam I don’t notice much change but i am not following that much. But what do I know. i reminded my mother that this has played out worldwide in other perenial winning areas like california, yet somehow I am to believe we are different.
The only difference i see hear is the amound of delusion is unserpassed.
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rp Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 1:40 am
YLTNBoomerang: The US and Canadian central banks will continue to keep rates low as long as they can until the economy really blows up for good. It’s typical short term thinking – cure the symptoms not the disease. Some may not even recognize the problem.
The problem is that we have too much debt. 70% of our economy is consumption which is mostly financed by new debt. Check out this presentation by Australian economist Steve Keen:
http://www.debtdeflation.com/b.....tute-talk/
He calls this a “Ponzi-economy” (a term coined by Minsky) and he’s right, because debt must grow at an ever faster rate in order to maintain constant economic growth. Every time since the mid 1980’s when there has been a recession, rather than let overextended people and businesses go bankrupt, policy makers have loosened monetary policy to reignite the debt bubble. It’s like “curing” a hangover with more booze.
It has created a bubble every decade in junk bonds, internet stocks, then housing, and now precious metals along with stocks and housing again. It probably won’t be commodities or resources because that will quickly crash the real economy.
So now rates are at zero, and central banks and governments are extending credit like mad to questionable borrowers. The US FHA is purposely losing gobs of money on bad loans to prop up the housing market. Canada’s CMHC is doing the same thing. It’s one big party that we’re all paying for, except that we probably can’t afford it.
Central banks are trying to create inflation to wipe out the real value of debts, so that they can create new debts and grow the economy again. However, there is one minor problem. When the next financial crisis hits, rates are already at zero, money printing has already been done, bad loans have already been extended – there is nothing left to do. So countries will blow up. Like Iceland. Their currencies will be worthless (hence the rush to precious metals), their people will be destitute (except for the people who got obscenely rich off this), and there will be nothing anyone can do. The culprits will simply leave. They’ll retire to some tropical country with no extradition treaties.
What should have happened this time is that the people who made bad loans should have lost money and markets should have been allowed to correct. This was probably the last chance to fix the system. Previous chances were in 1987 (stock market correction, junk bonds), 1991 (savings and loan scandals), 1998 (long term capital management), 2000 (stock market crash), 2002 (Enron & Worldcom scandals), 2007 (credit crunch), 2008 (Lehman), 2009 (stress tests).
In each case the government covered up the problem, ignored or endorsed outright fraud, and/or loosened monetary policy. All to “help” the economy come through. If you find any of this disturbing you may be interested in the history of Argentina. It’ll only get worse from here.
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rp Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 1:51 am
I should correct my conclusion. It’ll only get worse if more people succumb to the madness and continue to act irresponsibly. If they personally strive to reduce their debts then we could be in for the Japanese scenario of 10 or 20 years of low growth as debts are paid down. This is not entirely bad. The bond market is betting on this scenario, so it’s likely.
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patriotzed Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 1:53 am
@kansai_92:
Real rents in Vancouver are declining. Shelter in the city is actually more affordable than a decade ago:
http://cuer.sauder.ubc.ca/cma/van.html
Don’t confuse the issues. There is a huge difference between a city having expensive shelter – i.e. both rents and prices being high – and in a bubble – i.e high prices but normal rents. All bubbles must eventually fail because they are Ponzi schemes in which the return on investment comes from the next buyer rather than from income on the asset.
People keep bringing up Monaco as some point of comparison. Is that place in a permanent bubble – i.e. prices out of whack with rents – or is it just plain expensive? I would guess the latter – I certainly have never heard anyone recommend Monaco for cheap rentals. Well there have always been places that are just plain expensive because most residents are rich or most jobs pay very well. Neither is true for Vancouver – in aggregate it’s one of the poorer big cities in Canada (about the same as Montreal). That’s why we are in a bubble which must fail.
Also with respect to the person asking if gold is in a bubble, gold has no value (i.e. it returns no income to its owner), so you could say that it’s always in a bubble (i.e. price out of whack with value), or say that it makes no sense to ask whether it’s in a bubble. Gold is essentially a Ponzi scheme except that entrants must hold physical tokens (i.e. the gold) which limits its growth.
Yes I’m aware that there are industrial uses for gold but these do not drive its price, speculators do.
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RennieWhereRU? Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 10:52 am
It never ceases to amaze my how ignorant people are in respect to home ownership v renting. Some very intelligent people (on paper anyway) fail to comprehend very basic finance. People continually ask why don’t I buy, now is a great time to get into the market, blah blah blah. And my very simple answer still cannot be understood – EVEN WITH FREE MONEY, MY RENT IS STILL HALF TO TOTAL COST OF OWNERSHIP AND I TAKE ON ZERO RISK! How hard it that to understand dickheads! PLUS YOU DO NOT OWN ANYTHING UNTIL YOU HAVE PAID THE BANK THE LAST PENNY ON THE LOAN. YOU ARE ESSENTIALLY RENTING FROM THE BANK AT A MUCH HIGHER RATE, YOU ARE A DEBT SLAVE!
I live conservatively, but live a good life nonetheless. Save the difference between my rent and the otherwise cost of ownership and spend the rest on our lifestyle, mainly vacations and gaining life experiences. People are baffled why we can afford this and had one friend remark “well thats because you rent”, we der, think about your statement there fuckwhip. Of course it is. I said it was great, we save $30,000 a year and spend the rest on ourselves, how good is that I said to her. I also mentioned that it takes nearly 4 months rent just to pay city taxes and insurance. But we are still poor renters and will still be treated as 2nd class citizens. It’s OK, this thing is going to go down big time, sooner or later. I dont give a shit if I own or rent, I want a roof over my head and some grass in the yard.
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stagnate Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 11:41 am
renting would be more “socially” attractive if you could lock in long term tenancies, say 15 years. most people with kids are not willing to subject their family to the potential of getting evicted due to selling/owner moving back in/etc. they want the stability and control from owning. if more quality long term sfh’s were available for long term rentals more would take the discount. the discount would shrink though if greater numbers made the move. i know a few who have sold and rented for reverse speculation, but am hard pressed to think of any who have done it for the month to month discount.
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vreaa Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 1:02 pm
Vancouver RE currently demonstrates historically record high price-to-rent ratios. Despite this, very, very low interest rates continue to make buying look attractive, especially if one only considers monthly payments.
I’ve archived the following telling anecdote from Beth (2009 Nov 13, 20:27) from the comments section of the 12 Nov 2009 ‘Vancouver RE market bounces back’ article in the Georgia Straight, already cited by posters above –
“My rent was $975 a month for a crappy, 35 year old one bedroom that didn’t have insuite laundry or anything, and where the landlord would knock twice then enter my suite without advance notice for non-emergencies, once even while I was on the toilet. Now, my mortgage is the same for a 12 year old one bedroom with laundry, fireplace, dishwasher. This includes maintenance fee. And I can have a pet. And no landlord can come in because he feels like it. Yes, the interest rates will rise, but my salary will also increase. If I’m laid off, or my mortgage skyrockets, I’ll work my ass off to keep it all together. I am confident in my ability to make it work. Downpayment? Some people work two jobs and weekends for years and years and years to save up for one; others inherit it when a loved one passes away; others borrow money interest-free from family, and others have it handed to them by well-to-do parents who would rather their kids have a condo than live in a dump run by a slumlord. Do you blame them? It’s not really anyone’s business where a downpayment comes from. It’s not a crime to have a downpayment.”
http://vreaa.wordpress.com/
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mousie Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 1:24 pm
#32 “what wage growth?”
Well..
I have given up on getting anything more from my employer.
The only ones getting any “growths” are CEO, high up gov workers ie premier and his friends and relatives.
But I would not mind some wage growth, so I created a wage growth for me, this is how:
I have developed some very frugal skills.
I have developed a mind that questions every new “must have”.
I dont get involved in risky behaviours such as speeding, extreme sports, buying houses at unreasonable prices, doing drugs, cigs, or etoh, or wearing high heels.
Also, if you cannot afford it, try living without it. Works for me.. No debts, no bill collectors, no sleep deprivation.
I had such a good sleep last night.
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ReadyToPop Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
@patriotzed
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Franco Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
@Dave:
let call a ambulance for those insane bears,in case of their hearts stops functioning due to 0 oxygen intake for yrs.Poor,Van bears have been waiting,waiting and waiting………for any sigificant drop.Unfotunately, there ain’t any fantasy like that exists due to overwhelming buying power from Chinese population either from local or abroad.Don’t hold your breath to long for price correction men cos Van RE will only edging for this century at least.If you don’t have enough down payment,come on, don’t be lazy and find one more job to supplement your meager income.
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Franco Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 2:26 pm
@Anonymous:
Even Prudent Vancouver Sun exposes the reality to those idiotic,cheeky,and retarded bears.Good work man! in defending Van RE and its hard working RE buyers and owners.let those RE bears be humiliated time and time again,and rot in their run-down basements while , those smart RE owners and buys are collecting rental payments and prospering from hasty RE appreciation in future decades.
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Jim Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 2:37 pm
Hey we live in your basement so you can afford your crack house, don’t insult us too much or we may come out of the basement and you will find us in your kitchen eating your KD your living off of.
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Phil Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 2:45 pm
The thing with real estate is leverage where else can you borrow 900,000 grand and only put say 5/10% down, if you assume around an 8% return that is $80,000 a year and increasing on 5/10% down. If you decided to just rent where could you get the equivalent leverage, could you borrow 900,000 with 10% down to put in the stock market, I don’t think so, too risky!! banks wouldn’t lend even on margin its at most 50%.
Renting over owning may work out in economic text book theory land but not in practical real world that is why most renters are poor.
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babzenuda Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 2:51 pm
wtf, why are all the bulltards getting their comments through but mine aren’t? three attempts at a posting… nothing sticks. sigh, time to go play golf and have a saturday afternoon beer with all my dirtbag renter buddies.
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babzenuda Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 2:56 pm
# 58 Stagnate:
How much long-term “stability and control” should a family realistically expect from over-leveraging themselves into this housing market? Speculation and gambling are best be left to business and casino dealings, no?
O, the specter of being bought out of an affordable long-term rental for “landlord use”… I’d feel much more “socially attractive” in a buy-out compared to a trash-out scenario!
http://kcet.org/socal/2008/09/.....alley.html
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Anonymous Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 2:56 pm
@Phil: Here’s a thought experiment for you, Phil. Can you think of any potential downsides to leverage?
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johnny Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 3:15 pm
@Dave
Matrikon Richmond has $10billion project with BCTC alone.
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Anonymous Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 3:31 pm
@johnny
That’s totally wrong. BCTC’s entire capital plan for the next 10 years is only $5.3 billion.
http://www.bctc.com/transmissi.....pital_plan
Matrikon is a bit player in the BCTC technical landscape when compared to Accenture who has the majority of IT business there. And we’re not even talking about transmission technology (you know, the stuff that goes into substations, etc.) which is a far larger piece of the capital plan than IT.
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pricedoutfornow Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 7:56 pm
“The world has too much debt”
I agree (who wouldn’t) but when will this situation we’re in end? Our economy is based on debt, if no one spends, then our consumer-based economy will crash and burn.
On another note, I was out looking at used cars today. The salesman was trying to convince me to buy a brand new 2010 car, showing me the low financing rates-1.9% or less. But he gave up when I said I’d rather pay cash. He said most people don’t buy used cars anymore because they base their decision on the monthly payment amount, and with the low rates only available on the new cars, you end up paying more per month for a used car than for the new car.
So ironically, this means that most people really can’t afford to buy a used car, they can only afford to buy new.
This seems so messed up to me.
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ReadyToPop Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 8:45 pm
@patriotzed
Good post.
(#60 technical difficulties)
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OneNaggingQuestion Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 8:45 pm
After 2-1/2 years following this and other blogs on the housing situation here, I am utterly convinced by most of the Bear arguments and extremely grateful to those who have taken care to explain things carefully and provide graphs and so on. Thank you, thank you, a thousand times thank you.
There seems to me no good reason to buy a condo, townhouse or house anywhere in Vancouver (nor in most nearby municipalities) at the present time except for one. If the U.S. hits hyper-inflation and the dollar goes down, certainly the Canadian dollar would follow and also become valueless. Then the only thing worth having would be real property, land. What do people think about that as a reason? Would the reply be that the probability of hyper-inflation is so low that it is not worth taking into consideration? Interested in your opinions.
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flip_this Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 9:36 pm
Good point OneNaggingQuestion.
May be bears have been wrong about the real estate in Vancouver for the last 6 years (myself included), because they are waiting for the paper money to appreciate against tangible assets. It could be a delusion.
The inflation has been the permanent state of the monetary system for the last 70 years. So, in inflationary environment the most benefit goes to the individuals who gets the newly created money/credit first. In our instance this is overleveraged homeowners. The way things look I am starting to doubt that anything can stop the authorities from issuing enough money to keep inflation going. Money are just numbers, most of money exist in the electronic form, so the government doesn’t even need paper to print the money.
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other ted Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 10:16 pm
flip this starting to feel the same way. only hope is seeing what happened in the us and arounnd the world. My brain says we are not different here. My gut tells me people are nuts here to the point where anything is possible.
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Unkrisshified Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 10:20 pm
@stagnate:
You’d be surprised how many long term renters are out there.
Obviously not all but some tenants like to spend time gardening and settling in.
The newer “landlords” who have virtually no equity and a very high debt ratio are not people whom you should deal with. Let these foolish rookie landlords shoot for the moon with their rental expectations and later pay to have the house brought up to code after a meth lab is discovered on the premises.
Remember to check into who the landlord is as it’s only fair. The owners check the tenants out. Try to determine how long they’ve owned the property.
Due to capital gains some families have held rental properties for decades and WANT long term tenants who will be responsible, who know how to fix the chain in a toilet and won’t be calling for every little maintenance issue.
If you can get access to BC online or the mlxchange you can look up a random sampling of 100 houses and be surprised how many houses that you’d presumed were “owner occupied” aren’t.
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White Swan Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 10:26 pm
I guess one has to wonder if:
1. A lot of the so called data-based analysis by those not inclined to buy real estate isn’t a form of group therapy?
2. Bears are trying to get an idea of how many fellow bears exist? Will they split when even this blog goes bullish?
3. This blog will ever be a bullish blog? Can you imagine that?
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ReadyToPop Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 10:40 pm
A whole lot of U.S. homeowners probably wish they had thought to check a RE blog or two and take in the “group therapy”.
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still spending Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 10:48 pm
NCIX at Aberdeen Mall in Richmond Hazelbridge Rd is having a grand opening sale tomorrow morning from 9.30am.
Many will be waiting in line outside from 5am Sunday morning. Some items are 50% off, such as Sony laptop @$500 and Gateway laptops @$250. Judging from the response, there will be a big crowd.
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The Pope Says:
November 15th, 2009 at 9:29 am
@babzenuda: Not sure why your comment was getting hung up in the spam filter, but I think I rescued it along with vreaa’s. Just so you know why the spam filter is in place: it’s stopped more than 2000 spam comments in the past week. You think this site gets hard to read with a few stupid comments? Imagine it with 2000 spam comments a week!
@still spending: Theres demand for items at 50% off? That’s terrific! There are lots of people on this site that would line up for real estate at 50% off right now, so you know the economies good.
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Anonymous Says:
November 15th, 2009 at 11:23 am
Vancouver will be known as the greediest Olympics in history. We really are different!
http://tinyurl.com/yzlbrux
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stillspending Says:
November 15th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
Hey Pope. You’re right as usual. That’s why I come back here again and again, because it’s daily insanity out there.
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babzenuda Says:
November 15th, 2009 at 12:22 pm
@The Pope:
No worries Pope, keep up the good work.
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Anonymous Says:
November 15th, 2009 at 12:43 pm
@Phil:
Right on man let them rot in their basement and loss dearly in stock speculation. They deserve to be laughed at.Come on babe show me a significant correction before the yrs of 3000,at least 10 percent men. I m waiting,waiting and waiting.
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other ted Says:
November 15th, 2009 at 12:44 pm
Any thoughts as to why the Canadian government was successful in reflating the real estate bubble while our US counterparts were not? It seems Bush/Obama administration are trying the same thing. Why is it not working down south but seems to be working here. And will this last here? I am starting to believe the belief in real estate is at religious proportions and it might stay here. Not scared as a bear as it will mean we will beome a feudal society witha feudal economy and as a renter I will be mobiel to leave this mess. But wondering if there are any thoughts on this.
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Vancouverite Says:
November 15th, 2009 at 1:25 pm
When will all you BEARS go-away!
Vancouver RE is Happening against all economic indicators!
What does that tell you?
You will not be able to buy a Olympic Villiage Condo for 10 c on the dollar (idiots)
The BEARS have run out of local issues!
Asians are lining up to buy Van RE!
This Blog is a waste of time for Everybody!
Go elsewhere to talk gloom & Doom!
I agree that Van RE prices are extaordinary high, but, lets wait for 10 more years to see if they go down!
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whatthefu*k Says:
November 15th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
VANOC ‘leaning’ towards reselling tickets on thier site to head off ‘Craigslist’ scalpers. Hey I got news for you all, its all a big scam.
http://www.vancouversun.com/sp.....story.html
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pricedoutfornow Says:
November 15th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
It’s a different situation in Canada, in terms of the mortgage market. Right now in Canada, we are at the lowest mortgage rates possible-I’ve heard of some people having rates of 1.5%! It’s no wonder people (first time home buyers) are jumping into the market when the monthly mortgage payment is so affordable. It’s also no wonder that “investors” aren’t selling their properties in droves-why do so when the mortgage rates are so low, it makes more sense to hold onto the property and wait until “after the Olympics” when property values will double, quadruple, etc (so they say)
Meanwhile in the US, those low interest rates are a thing of the past. Many people signed up for “teaser” interest rates years ago, which eventually reset at higher rates-and then voila! That mortgage they got at 1.5% is suddenly several %s higher. No wonder people have walked away from their houses. So how can they suddenly expect the housing market to be reinflated when mortgage rates are higher, homebuyers’ credit is ruined and prices have plummeted. Oh and unemployment is rampant.
It’ll happen soon enough here, our low interest rates reek of subprime, and those who think otherwise are dreaming. I think it’s only a matter of time before we see all the factors we saw in the US-especially since our government is going the way of “teaser” interest rates, the crash will be even worse after that factor is included in the equation.
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incompetance Says:
November 15th, 2009 at 1:57 pm
Systemic incompetance by the health provider industry result in H1N1 vaccine being thrown out instead of giving it to ‘non high risk’ groups except for asshole hockey players and the like. Bring some competant health care workers in from Pakistan China India and the Phillipines and get rid of every single incompetant parasite current sucking blood and costing lives in the Canadian system The current bunch of unionized wankers have become entrenched through nepotism and have proven themselves and thier organization to be nothing more than total fuck ups.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com.....le1364102/
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flip_this Says:
November 15th, 2009 at 2:49 pm
pricedoutfornow:
Why do you think mortgage rates in Canada will go higher? It seems to me that if Bank of Canada wants the mortgage rates to stay low they can certainly keep them low by buying mortgages from the banks. This is what they’ve been doing for the last several years. From the BoC actions it is evident that they are more then willing to create enough money to keep the bubble inflated. It appears that they want inflation. The low mortgage rates is nothing more then a subsidy for the homeowners (the banks, of course, profit the most), so what can make the government stop this subsidy? There is a common feature of all entitlements: once started they are very hard (politically) to get rid off. This particular entitlement affects about 70% of Canadian population, so I don’t see where political will will come from to increase the mortgage rates.
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arit Says:
November 15th, 2009 at 2:54 pm
StillSpending
I visited Aberdeen Center today. For your enjoyment, I filmed THE LINE OUTSIDE NCIX.
Amazing how these people will stand in this line for a few bucks discount
Consume
Obey
No Independent Thought
Do Not Question Authority
Here is the video….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YK2gwZyQI2A
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domus Says:
November 15th, 2009 at 3:06 pm
@flip_this: Excellent point.
When talking about inflation/deflation, I am in the inflation camp for these reasons:
1) inflation is, and always will be, a monetary phenomenon: to say it with Milton Friedman, if you print/issue enough monetary instruments, you get inflation down the line. No buts, nois;
2) FED/BoC know this full well: they argue that, when the time comes, they will be willing and able to withdraw excess liquidity from the system. The two operating words are “WILLING” and “ABLE”. Let’s assume they were willing: how do you go about withdrawing liquidity at a really fast pace? Ask the FED/BoC to sell off all the government-derived debt they purchased over the past few years? In a matter of a few months? I believe it is not possible: it would take a few years, not a few months, to do that kind of open market operation. That would be more than enough time for inflation to take hold and raise its head. So, central bankers are lying on a simple technical issue.
3) Let’s assume that it were possible to withdraw liquidity at the fast pace they want us to belive: would they be ‘WILLING’ to do it? No way! Such a fast withdrawing of liquidity would be utterly painful. it would imply at the very least a big slowdown in economic activity, at worst another short and painful recession 9ever heard of the ‘Volker’s’ recession of the early 1980s in the US? I doubt that our weak bureaucrats and elected officials would be willing to do the painful right thing.
Notice: when the inflation hits hard, interest rates jump up. House prices will suffer big time. Unless you have a big amount of equity in your home already, you will suffer as well.
This all leaves me with a big question: why is everybody talking about deflation? It really beats me: we have low recorded inflation because energy went down a lot last year. New readings this year will show more normal inflation numbers, and they will only grow over time.
They are willingly (and stealthily) making ground for an inflation bout, something which erases existing liabilities and gives a clean slate to debtors (both individuals and banks/corporations).
I hope they fail. We need to be aware of what is going on. Spread the word.
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Franco Says:
November 15th, 2009 at 3:27 pm
@Vancouverite:
YEAH!!!! Boowha,Another Bull join our battle against those stupid,and soon this forum will be ours.
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Franco Says:
November 15th, 2009 at 3:27 pm
@Vancouverite:
YEAH!!!! Boowha,Another Bull join our battle against those stupid bear
,and soon this forum will be ours.
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arit Says:
November 15th, 2009 at 4:18 pm
Franco,
This is not a war. Nor a battle. The forum is not ours nor yours, it’s the Pope’s.
Can you tell us a few more details about your recent purchase please? Like how much mortgage, downpayment, etc,.
Regards
arit
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Disbelief Says:
November 15th, 2009 at 5:33 pm
When it comes to bulls(the beast of burden) they are not a particularly smart animal but when led to slaughter they begin to smell the blood and begin to panic. Wait til they smell a little blood in the street when their neighbours or friends can’t refinance. That’s when we’ll see who’s swimming naked.
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arit Says:
November 15th, 2009 at 5:37 pm
“That’s when we’ll see who’s swimming naked”
I am waiting for that to happen in more than one aspect. Patience…
Regards
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Disbelief Says:
November 15th, 2009 at 5:59 pm
Here is an easy equation. Mortgaged to the hilt raise in the interest rate = Foreclosure . It doesn’t get much simpler than that.
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..bdk.. Says:
November 15th, 2009 at 6:35 pm
Good to see you back Arit!
Do you film while you’re driving?
I watched your videos and was amused. A lot of people don’t seem to understand stop signs, right of way or that passing in parking lanes repeatedly during rush hour is dumb.
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flip_this Says:
November 15th, 2009 at 6:39 pm
@domus:
I think you are making very good points, and to me the inflation seems to be the most probable outcome. Can you please clarify for me one thing: you state that “when the inflation hits hard, interest rates jump up.” I can see that interest rates will rise on debt securities traded in a free market such as commercial credit market (bank credit, corporate bonds, etc.). From what I can see, the Canadian mortgage market is not really a free market, it is manipulated by the CMHC, BoC and the Canadian government. What in your opinion can force them to raise the mortgage rates?
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arit Says:
November 15th, 2009 at 6:58 pm
Hi bdk,
Sorry, off topic, but no, it’s not just “film while you’re driving”…
I am about to release BeMeBlackBox for the Android operating system, a paid app for your vehicle.
What it does is simple: It continuously records and deletes video from a windshield mounted phone. When you crash, or when you press the Save button, it saves the last X seconds, and the previous video file just in case. You can set the length of the video file. If selected, it will also upload the file automatically to YouTube.
So my test files are in YouTube, that is what you were seeing.
Regards
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domus Says:
November 15th, 2009 at 7:21 pm
@flip_this: Hi flip_this: that’s a very good question. In normal times mortgage rates are set equal to the interest on long-term (usually 10 to 30 years) bonds, plus a premium which compensates for transaction costs and other middle-man costs. Notice: the premium usually goes up as your risk-category goes up. So, in normal times, if you have low down-payment your premium goes up. However we are not in normal times: CMHC is allowing high-risk people (with very little downpayment) to have access to really low premiums. This means that these guys get mortgage rates close to the 10-to-30 years bonds rates, which are still rock bottom (although slowly rising).
CMHC is basically interefering with the market for pricing risk: it buys all the extra risk associated to these guys, so that they have access to the same low rates as people with big downpayments (sometimes even, ironically, to better rates, since their mortgages are insured by CMHC, the full faith of the Canadian Governement itself!)
So, the question you have to ask yourself is: are you a taxpayer? If you are, you are carrying the mortgage costs of hundreds of thousands of high-risk Canadians who are jumping on the RE bandwagon.
You have been informed.
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ReadyToPop Says:
November 15th, 2009 at 7:53 pm
“Fleck” does it again…this could apply here as well for those of us who believe that monetary policy (and the bubblacious consequences) will echo the U.S.
Arrogant Fed hasn’t learned a thing
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Anonymous Says:
November 15th, 2009 at 10:13 pm
@91 Thanks for the video. LOL a masserati show – are those cars 50% too!
I was at Daiso $2 shop to buy toilet brushes and brooms all @$2-$3 each. And I overhead a conversation. A guy just bought a house with a mortgage and was checking with his friends if the bank would lend him another $6K for CHMC insurance.
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Chilled Says:
November 15th, 2009 at 10:59 pm
http://vancouver.en.craigslist.....56948.html
Tooooo Funny!!!!!
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Anonymous Says:
November 15th, 2009 at 11:45 pm
@Chilled:
Yeah but, yeah but, Chilled, don’t diss this guy(?)cos he deserves respect man, now that he’s an “owner”. You are clearly just a bitter renter. It 5 years he will own 15 properties and be the talk of all the cool cocktail parties.
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doh Says:
November 15th, 2009 at 11:51 pm
^^ retard
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Supraboy Says:
November 16th, 2009 at 12:02 am
There are so many bears here, it goes to show you that the RE market will continue to rise. Until there’s a flood of bulls on bullboards and a swarm of buyers lining up for condos, I don’t think we’re even close to topping out on RE in Vancouver.
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realpaul Says:
November 16th, 2009 at 12:05 am
Potential for a very hard landing in China as stimulus lending hits 140% of GDP. Fine to ramp up the factories but at the end of the day there has to be customers for the product. The big parasite has had its day in a world that can’t carry it anymore. The saying go’s that a rising tide floats all ships. China did nothing but clamber on the riseing economies of the west and now has nothing to sustain itself as the tide is going out. Superpower my ass.
Ha ha ha
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/fin.....onomy.html
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doh Says:
November 16th, 2009 at 1:19 am
@Supraboy:
“I don’t think”
Exactly.
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buybuybuysellsellsell Says:
November 16th, 2009 at 1:43 am
@Arit No they did not line up for a few dollars of discount. But what hit me was the goods are on craiglist asking 150% and 70% above the purchase prices.
http://vancouver.en.craigslist.....43940.html
Eee pc 8g 701sd brand new – $250 (Vancouver/Burnaby)
= asking 150% more
http://vancouver.en.craigslist.....14645.html
BRAND NEW Sony VAIO VGN-FW340DW – $850 (SURREY)
= asking 70% more
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rp Says:
November 16th, 2009 at 4:27 am
Hey it worked for real estate, you really can’t blame them for trying. It must be raining idiots!
113 X “A guy just bought a house with a mortgage and was checking with his friends if the bank would lend him another $6K for CHMC insurance” « Vancouver Real Estate Anecdote Archive Says:
November 16th, 2009 at 9:29 am
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