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	<title>Comments on: Banker Bubble-talk Bundle</title>
	<atom:link href="http://vancouvercondo.info/2009/12/banker-bubble-talk-bundle.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://vancouvercondo.info/2009/12/banker-bubble-talk-bundle.html</link>
	<description>Bubble? What Bubble?</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 09 Feb 2012 02:53:26 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Aston Lau &#8211; How the Canadian housing market doesn’t make sense</title>
		<link>http://vancouvercondo.info/2009/12/banker-bubble-talk-bundle.html#comment-72063</link>
		<dc:creator>Aston Lau &#8211; How the Canadian housing market doesn’t make sense</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Apr 2010 00:24:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vancouvercondo.info/?p=1523#comment-72063</guid>
		<description>[...] A roundup of bubble comments that the major banks have been making lately.  The prevailing sentiment is that a bubble is forming or has already formed, and come mid-2010 when the Bank of Canada raises rates, we might see the start of a shake-up in the real estate market. Bad news like this is rarely seen in the mainstream media, so when so many noted economists publicly voice this opinion, it’s a good idea to perk up and listen. [...]&lt;p class=&quot;top-comments&quot;&gt;Current score: &lt;span class=&quot;top-comments-karma&quot; id=&quot;karma-72063&quot;&gt;0&lt;/span&gt; &lt;small&gt;(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] A roundup of bubble comments that the major banks have been making lately.  The prevailing sentiment is that a bubble is forming or has already formed, and come mid-2010 when the Bank of Canada raises rates, we might see the start of a shake-up in the real estate market. Bad news like this is rarely seen in the mainstream media, so when so many noted economists publicly voice this opinion, it’s a good idea to perk up and listen. [...]
<p class="top-comments">Current score: <span class="top-comments-karma" id="karma-72063">0</span> <small>(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)</small></p>
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		<title>By: bestplaceonmeth</title>
		<link>http://vancouvercondo.info/2009/12/banker-bubble-talk-bundle.html#comment-60227</link>
		<dc:creator>bestplaceonmeth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Dec 2009 07:13:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vancouvercondo.info/?p=1523#comment-60227</guid>
		<description>@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-60118&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;stagnate&lt;/a&gt;: 

What land constraints? 

There is plenty of land in the Lower Mainland.&lt;p class=&quot;top-comments&quot;&gt;Current score: &lt;span class=&quot;top-comments-karma&quot; id=&quot;karma-60227&quot;&gt;1&lt;/span&gt; &lt;small&gt;(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@<a class="atr_link" href="#comment-60118" rel="nofollow">stagnate</a>: </p>
<p>What land constraints? </p>
<p>There is plenty of land in the Lower Mainland.
<p class="top-comments">Current score: <span class="top-comments-karma" id="karma-60227">1</span> <small>(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)</small></p>
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		<title>By: &#8220;No Brainer&#8230; or Madness?&#8221; &#171; Vancouver Real Estate Anecdote Archive</title>
		<link>http://vancouvercondo.info/2009/12/banker-bubble-talk-bundle.html#comment-60211</link>
		<dc:creator>&#8220;No Brainer&#8230; or Madness?&#8221; &#171; Vancouver Real Estate Anecdote Archive</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Dec 2009 23:45:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vancouvercondo.info/?p=1523#comment-60211</guid>
		<description>[...] 5 December 2009 &#183; Leave a Comment  This from realtor Maggie Chandler&#8217;s blog 1 Dec 2009 (hat-tip to Starving Artist at vancouvercondo.info)- [...]&lt;p class=&quot;top-comments&quot;&gt;Current score: &lt;span class=&quot;top-comments-karma&quot; id=&quot;karma-60211&quot;&gt;0&lt;/span&gt; &lt;small&gt;(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 5 December 2009 &middot; Leave a Comment  This from realtor Maggie Chandler&#8217;s blog 1 Dec 2009 (hat-tip to Starving Artist at vancouvercondo.info)- [...]
<p class="top-comments">Current score: <span class="top-comments-karma" id="karma-60211">0</span> <small>(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)</small></p>
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		<title>By: realpaul</title>
		<link>http://vancouvercondo.info/2009/12/banker-bubble-talk-bundle.html#comment-60126</link>
		<dc:creator>realpaul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 11:00:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vancouvercondo.info/?p=1523#comment-60126</guid>
		<description>#11 Patriotz, I meant that foriegn investors &#039;can&#039;t&#039; buy CDN bonds at .40% compared to the 3.75% they can get from the Oz bonds. Its a case of &#039;they won&#039;t&#039; buy CDN bonds because the CDN government is buying up all its own debt to keep from having to go into the open market. Sorry for the confusion. PS Garth has done again on his latest posting, suggested reading for sure.

#32
T192, 

1)Debt obligations are a liability. Its costing Canadians plenty to utilize the 800 billion used to backstop the CMHC debt orgy as debt instead of capitalizng into other areas of the economy. Thats a philisophical argument though and I am not on the side of socialism in the marketplace. It always ends badly for the taxpayer.

2)The failure stats are not public information so we don&#039;t really know what the cost to Canada is. We will find out eventually through FOI or the Auditor general but both systems are fraught with delay. Guaranteed, this massive debt overhang is far from &#039;free&#039;.&lt;p class=&quot;top-comments&quot;&gt;Current score: &lt;span class=&quot;top-comments-karma&quot; id=&quot;karma-60126&quot;&gt;0&lt;/span&gt; &lt;small&gt;(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#11 Patriotz, I meant that foriegn investors &#8216;can&#8217;t&#8217; buy CDN bonds at .40% compared to the 3.75% they can get from the Oz bonds. Its a case of &#8216;they won&#8217;t&#8217; buy CDN bonds because the CDN government is buying up all its own debt to keep from having to go into the open market. Sorry for the confusion. PS Garth has done again on his latest posting, suggested reading for sure.</p>
<p>#32<br />
T192, </p>
<p>1)Debt obligations are a liability. Its costing Canadians plenty to utilize the 800 billion used to backstop the CMHC debt orgy as debt instead of capitalizng into other areas of the economy. Thats a philisophical argument though and I am not on the side of socialism in the marketplace. It always ends badly for the taxpayer.</p>
<p>2)The failure stats are not public information so we don&#8217;t really know what the cost to Canada is. We will find out eventually through FOI or the Auditor general but both systems are fraught with delay. Guaranteed, this massive debt overhang is far from &#8216;free&#8217;.
<p class="top-comments">Current score: <span class="top-comments-karma" id="karma-60126">0</span> <small>(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)</small></p>
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		<title>By: realpaul</title>
		<link>http://vancouvercondo.info/2009/12/banker-bubble-talk-bundle.html#comment-60120</link>
		<dc:creator>realpaul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 05:07:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vancouvercondo.info/?p=1523#comment-60120</guid>
		<description>So, you all remember when Vanoc gave the DTES crack whores and all other prostitutes a flyer about how to deal with Olympic vistors. I think it said something like &quot;Be nice and don&#039;t say anything bad about Vancouver&#039;.

Well obviously Vanoc is saying to the Olympic committee &quot;hey guys, we&#039;ve greased up the pig, now get out there&quot; with the purchase of 100,000 condoms to be distributed amognst the Olympic organizers. These cracked up yahoos will be cruising the streets on your dime!!!!

Is this also why Campbell decided to close all the elementary schools? So that a few stray kiddies might get dragged in to the bushes by a &#039;visitor&#039;. Of course he&#039;d have diplomatic immunity and get away with it. This is our gift to the world. Abundant whores and poverty stricken single moms desperate enough to have to streetwalk. Don&#039;t you feel proud to be a Canadian.

http://www.vancouversun.com/Swifter+higher+stronger+safer+free+condoms+Vancouver+Olympic+athletes+officials/2299383/story.html

A very astute reprter in Aussie during the Sydney games picked out a group of &#039;visiting Olympic dignitaries&#039; and followed them straight from the airport to see where they went. They all went straight into the prostitution area and he photgraphed them in the act.

These are the type of scum who are involved in the Olympic Committee. And now you know. You not only pay for this but are expected to like it.&lt;p class=&quot;top-comments&quot;&gt;Current score: &lt;span class=&quot;top-comments-karma&quot; id=&quot;karma-60120&quot;&gt;0&lt;/span&gt; &lt;small&gt;(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, you all remember when Vanoc gave the DTES crack whores and all other prostitutes a flyer about how to deal with Olympic vistors. I think it said something like &#8220;Be nice and don&#8217;t say anything bad about Vancouver&#8217;.</p>
<p>Well obviously Vanoc is saying to the Olympic committee &#8220;hey guys, we&#8217;ve greased up the pig, now get out there&#8221; with the purchase of 100,000 condoms to be distributed amognst the Olympic organizers. These cracked up yahoos will be cruising the streets on your dime!!!!</p>
<p>Is this also why Campbell decided to close all the elementary schools? So that a few stray kiddies might get dragged in to the bushes by a &#8216;visitor&#8217;. Of course he&#8217;d have diplomatic immunity and get away with it. This is our gift to the world. Abundant whores and poverty stricken single moms desperate enough to have to streetwalk. Don&#8217;t you feel proud to be a Canadian.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.vancouversun.com/Swifter+higher+stronger+safer+free+condoms+Vancouver+Olympic+athletes+officials/2299383/story.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.vancouversun.com/Sw.....story.html</a></p>
<p>A very astute reprter in Aussie during the Sydney games picked out a group of &#8216;visiting Olympic dignitaries&#8217; and followed them straight from the airport to see where they went. They all went straight into the prostitution area and he photgraphed them in the act.</p>
<p>These are the type of scum who are involved in the Olympic Committee. And now you know. You not only pay for this but are expected to like it.
<p class="top-comments">Current score: <span class="top-comments-karma" id="karma-60120">0</span> <small>(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)</small></p>
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		<title>By: stagnate</title>
		<link>http://vancouvercondo.info/2009/12/banker-bubble-talk-bundle.html#comment-60118</link>
		<dc:creator>stagnate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 03:46:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vancouvercondo.info/?p=1523#comment-60118</guid>
		<description>San Fran in Van:  whoa there cowboy, homework time. apart from some macroeconomic differences vancouver is not like san fransisco due to much stronger in-elasticity of demand. you have to get into factors like immigration trending, land constraints, etc that can be specific to a region. you have to put in a bit more work than paraphrasing garth turner.&lt;p class=&quot;top-comments&quot;&gt;Current score: &lt;span class=&quot;top-comments-karma&quot; id=&quot;karma-60118&quot;&gt;-19&lt;/span&gt; &lt;small&gt;(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>San Fran in Van:  whoa there cowboy, homework time. apart from some macroeconomic differences vancouver is not like san fransisco due to much stronger in-elasticity of demand. you have to get into factors like immigration trending, land constraints, etc that can be specific to a region. you have to put in a bit more work than paraphrasing garth turner.
<p class="top-comments">Current score: <span class="top-comments-karma" id="karma-60118">-19</span> <small>(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)</small></p>
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		<title>By: patriotz</title>
		<link>http://vancouvercondo.info/2009/12/banker-bubble-talk-bundle.html#comment-60116</link>
		<dc:creator>patriotz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 23:57:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vancouvercondo.info/?p=1523#comment-60116</guid>
		<description>Excuse me, that&#039;s &quot;current account&quot;, not &quot;current exchange&quot;.&lt;p class=&quot;top-comments&quot;&gt;Current score: &lt;span class=&quot;top-comments-karma&quot; id=&quot;karma-60116&quot;&gt;-1&lt;/span&gt; &lt;small&gt;(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excuse me, that&#8217;s &#8220;current account&#8221;, not &#8220;current exchange&#8221;.
<p class="top-comments">Current score: <span class="top-comments-karma" id="karma-60116">-1</span> <small>(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)</small></p>
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		<title>By: patriotz</title>
		<link>http://vancouvercondo.info/2009/12/banker-bubble-talk-bundle.html#comment-60115</link>
		<dc:creator>patriotz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 23:56:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vancouvercondo.info/?p=1523#comment-60115</guid>
		<description>@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-60090&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;oneangryslav2&lt;/a&gt;: 
&lt;blockquote&gt;I think what the original poster implied (or this was how I interpreted it anyway) was not that foreigners can not buy these bonds but that they are unwilling to, given the low coupon rates.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Yes, foreign purchasers of Canadian debt would get low yield combined with exchange rate risk. But the real reason there is little holding of Canadian debt abroad is that the country hasn&#039;t had to borrow abroad - until very recently Canada had a longstanding current exchange surplus. In other words, Canada had been lending to the rest of the world, not the other way around.

Note that USD debt has a low yield as well but is widely held abroad, for the simple reason that the US has to borrow abroad. As well a number of the US&#039;s trading partners (e.g. China) have an interest in supporting the USD and so will buy their debt at a low yield.

But now Canada is running a current account deficit, for the same basic reason as the US has been for years - a very low savings rate. And need I mention that the policies of our &quot;Convervative&quot; government have abetted that low rate. If our savings rate does not improve soon, interest rates will &lt;b&gt;have to&lt;/b&gt; go up to attract foreign lenders.

http://www.economist.com/markets/indicators/displaystory.cfm?story_id=15020004&lt;p class=&quot;top-comments&quot;&gt;Current score: &lt;span class=&quot;top-comments-karma&quot; id=&quot;karma-60115&quot;&gt;6&lt;/span&gt; &lt;small&gt;(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@<a class="atr_link" href="#comment-60090" rel="nofollow">oneangryslav2</a>: </p>
<blockquote><p>I think what the original poster implied (or this was how I interpreted it anyway) was not that foreigners can not buy these bonds but that they are unwilling to, given the low coupon rates.</p></blockquote>
<p>Yes, foreign purchasers of Canadian debt would get low yield combined with exchange rate risk. But the real reason there is little holding of Canadian debt abroad is that the country hasn&#8217;t had to borrow abroad &#8211; until very recently Canada had a longstanding current exchange surplus. In other words, Canada had been lending to the rest of the world, not the other way around.</p>
<p>Note that USD debt has a low yield as well but is widely held abroad, for the simple reason that the US has to borrow abroad. As well a number of the US&#8217;s trading partners (e.g. China) have an interest in supporting the USD and so will buy their debt at a low yield.</p>
<p>But now Canada is running a current account deficit, for the same basic reason as the US has been for years &#8211; a very low savings rate. And need I mention that the policies of our &#8220;Convervative&#8221; government have abetted that low rate. If our savings rate does not improve soon, interest rates will <b>have to</b> go up to attract foreign lenders.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.economist.com/markets/indicators/displaystory.cfm?story_id=15020004" rel="nofollow">http://www.economist.com/marke.....d=15020004</a>
<p class="top-comments">Current score: <span class="top-comments-karma" id="karma-60115">6</span> <small>(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)</small></p>
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		<title>By: San Franciscan in Vancouver</title>
		<link>http://vancouvercondo.info/2009/12/banker-bubble-talk-bundle.html#comment-60114</link>
		<dc:creator>San Franciscan in Vancouver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 23:52:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vancouvercondo.info/?p=1523#comment-60114</guid>
		<description>How do we captalize on that? I am thinking of shorting the Canadian housing market. The problem I have encountered so far is that 1) there are few publicly traded home builders (if any), 2) no tradable sector-wide indices (except banking which I would ignore for the moment as banks in Canada have been smart to pass on the mortgage risk to the government thanks to the explicit guarantee through entities like CMHC. The only exception being the confluence of multiple risk factors to bring about systemic risk in the financial system just like in the U.S.), 3) most financial bellweather companies outside of banks and holders of income producing real estate (e.g. pension funds, life companies, REITs etc) are also privately held and not tradable. The problem is that the market appears to be much more closed and not easily permeable than that of the U.S. In that sense, the most direct effect of a decline in the sector in the future would be a sudden and severe decline in gross domestic output against which the government is going to have to print out a whole bunch of inflated Canadian dollars to counteract that. Betting on cyclical changes in output is a painstaking undertaking and not very lucrative, either. 

I guess the Canadian dollar appears to be the only viable proxy for a possible future hedge betting on housing prices decline in Canada. However, housing price adjustments can take place over multiple years (e.g. the United States), and often without a clear and immediate shorting target it would be very difficult to make money this way. Any suggestions in an open forum?&lt;p class=&quot;top-comments&quot;&gt;Current score: &lt;span class=&quot;top-comments-karma&quot; id=&quot;karma-60114&quot;&gt;12&lt;/span&gt; &lt;small&gt;(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How do we captalize on that? I am thinking of shorting the Canadian housing market. The problem I have encountered so far is that 1) there are few publicly traded home builders (if any), 2) no tradable sector-wide indices (except banking which I would ignore for the moment as banks in Canada have been smart to pass on the mortgage risk to the government thanks to the explicit guarantee through entities like CMHC. The only exception being the confluence of multiple risk factors to bring about systemic risk in the financial system just like in the U.S.), 3) most financial bellweather companies outside of banks and holders of income producing real estate (e.g. pension funds, life companies, REITs etc) are also privately held and not tradable. The problem is that the market appears to be much more closed and not easily permeable than that of the U.S. In that sense, the most direct effect of a decline in the sector in the future would be a sudden and severe decline in gross domestic output against which the government is going to have to print out a whole bunch of inflated Canadian dollars to counteract that. Betting on cyclical changes in output is a painstaking undertaking and not very lucrative, either. </p>
<p>I guess the Canadian dollar appears to be the only viable proxy for a possible future hedge betting on housing prices decline in Canada. However, housing price adjustments can take place over multiple years (e.g. the United States), and often without a clear and immediate shorting target it would be very difficult to make money this way. Any suggestions in an open forum?
<p class="top-comments">Current score: <span class="top-comments-karma" id="karma-60114">12</span> <small>(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)</small></p>
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		<title>By: observer</title>
		<link>http://vancouvercondo.info/2009/12/banker-bubble-talk-bundle.html#comment-60113</link>
		<dc:creator>observer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 23:34:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vancouvercondo.info/?p=1523#comment-60113</guid>
		<description>@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-60112&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;San Franciscan in Vancouver&lt;/a&gt;: Things are different here, for the moment at least. We&#039;re living inside a bubble and our reality is distorted because we&#039;re inside the bubble rather than outside.&lt;p class=&quot;top-comments&quot;&gt;Current score: &lt;span class=&quot;top-comments-karma&quot; id=&quot;karma-60113&quot;&gt;10&lt;/span&gt; &lt;small&gt;(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@<a class="atr_link" href="#comment-60112" rel="nofollow">San Franciscan in Vancouver</a>: Things are different here, for the moment at least. We&#8217;re living inside a bubble and our reality is distorted because we&#8217;re inside the bubble rather than outside.
<p class="top-comments">Current score: <span class="top-comments-karma" id="karma-60113">10</span> <small>(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)</small></p>
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		<title>By: San Franciscan in Vancouver</title>
		<link>http://vancouvercondo.info/2009/12/banker-bubble-talk-bundle.html#comment-60112</link>
		<dc:creator>San Franciscan in Vancouver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 23:06:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vancouvercondo.info/?p=1523#comment-60112</guid>
		<description>I am not sure why everyone seems to be bickering around here about the future of housing prices in Canada. Housing prices are just outside of the economic fundamentals. They are most out of whack in the foremost western provinces in Canada. An October 2009 IMF report even confirmed that. Knowing the track record of the IMF, I wouldn&#039;t necessarily rely on their technical analysis, however it is still a point of reference. In my opinion, it is almost with mathematical certainty that housing prices in Canada are destined to go down, i.e. return to long-range equillibrium - whatever that may have been for the last 30+ years based on income, rent and occupancy and population levels and growth prospects of the latter etc. An example for a long-range (30 year +) housing price equillibrium given at last year&#039;s California Bankers Association convetion in Rancho Mirage, CA showed housing prices roughly 3.3x annual gross household earnings and debt to income ratio of less than 40%. Last time I checked both of these were in multiple above this threshold in Vancouver, BC. Perhaps, Vancouver and the province itself have a more desirable real estate market than California as a whole. Who knows? Maybe, economic fundamentals are different in Canada than the rest of the world.&lt;p class=&quot;top-comments&quot;&gt;Current score: &lt;span class=&quot;top-comments-karma&quot; id=&quot;karma-60112&quot;&gt;31&lt;/span&gt; &lt;small&gt;(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am not sure why everyone seems to be bickering around here about the future of housing prices in Canada. Housing prices are just outside of the economic fundamentals. They are most out of whack in the foremost western provinces in Canada. An October 2009 IMF report even confirmed that. Knowing the track record of the IMF, I wouldn&#8217;t necessarily rely on their technical analysis, however it is still a point of reference. In my opinion, it is almost with mathematical certainty that housing prices in Canada are destined to go down, i.e. return to long-range equillibrium &#8211; whatever that may have been for the last 30+ years based on income, rent and occupancy and population levels and growth prospects of the latter etc. An example for a long-range (30 year +) housing price equillibrium given at last year&#8217;s California Bankers Association convetion in Rancho Mirage, CA showed housing prices roughly 3.3x annual gross household earnings and debt to income ratio of less than 40%. Last time I checked both of these were in multiple above this threshold in Vancouver, BC. Perhaps, Vancouver and the province itself have a more desirable real estate market than California as a whole. Who knows? Maybe, economic fundamentals are different in Canada than the rest of the world.
<p class="top-comments">Current score: <span class="top-comments-karma" id="karma-60112">31</span> <small>(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)</small></p>
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		<title>By: Drachen</title>
		<link>http://vancouvercondo.info/2009/12/banker-bubble-talk-bundle.html#comment-60110</link>
		<dc:creator>Drachen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 22:32:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vancouvercondo.info/?p=1523#comment-60110</guid>
		<description>@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-60105&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Dave&lt;/a&gt;: 

God...  Your predictions are so bad that you keep bringing up an instance where you were somewhat close (but still wrong) as an example of how prescient you are.  That&#039;s really sad.

I&#039;m calling for prices to fall TO 40% of what they are now, a 60% correction.

My prediction, from about a year and a half ago (no I&#039;m not going to waste the time to look it up, if you want to go right ahead) was that prices would fall in the fall of 2008 and either flatline or trend upwards in the spring of 2009, then the serious drop would start in 2010 with prices reaching bottom winter 2011 or later at 60% or more off current prices with a stabilization point of approximately 60% of current prices.  If you want to bother to look for it I&#039;m pretty certain it was within a month or two of our last peak.&lt;p class=&quot;top-comments&quot;&gt;Current score: &lt;span class=&quot;top-comments-karma&quot; id=&quot;karma-60110&quot;&gt;10&lt;/span&gt; &lt;small&gt;(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@<a class="atr_link" href="#comment-60105" rel="nofollow">Dave</a>: </p>
<p>God&#8230;  Your predictions are so bad that you keep bringing up an instance where you were somewhat close (but still wrong) as an example of how prescient you are.  That&#8217;s really sad.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m calling for prices to fall TO 40% of what they are now, a 60% correction.</p>
<p>My prediction, from about a year and a half ago (no I&#8217;m not going to waste the time to look it up, if you want to go right ahead) was that prices would fall in the fall of 2008 and either flatline or trend upwards in the spring of 2009, then the serious drop would start in 2010 with prices reaching bottom winter 2011 or later at 60% or more off current prices with a stabilization point of approximately 60% of current prices.  If you want to bother to look for it I&#8217;m pretty certain it was within a month or two of our last peak.
<p class="top-comments">Current score: <span class="top-comments-karma" id="karma-60110">10</span> <small>(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)</small></p>
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		<title>By: DEFAULT NAME</title>
		<link>http://vancouvercondo.info/2009/12/banker-bubble-talk-bundle.html#comment-60109</link>
		<dc:creator>DEFAULT NAME</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 22:16:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vancouvercondo.info/?p=1523#comment-60109</guid>
		<description>You can say what you want about Dave, but his penmanship is impeccable - a rare quality these days.&lt;p class=&quot;top-comments&quot;&gt;Current score: &lt;span class=&quot;top-comments-karma&quot; id=&quot;karma-60109&quot;&gt;8&lt;/span&gt; &lt;small&gt;(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You can say what you want about Dave, but his penmanship is impeccable &#8211; a rare quality these days.
<p class="top-comments">Current score: <span class="top-comments-karma" id="karma-60109">8</span> <small>(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)</small></p>
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		<title>By: Bubble Lad</title>
		<link>http://vancouvercondo.info/2009/12/banker-bubble-talk-bundle.html#comment-60108</link>
		<dc:creator>Bubble Lad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 22:07:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vancouvercondo.info/?p=1523#comment-60108</guid>
		<description>Ignore the first link&lt;p class=&quot;top-comments&quot;&gt;Current score: &lt;span class=&quot;top-comments-karma&quot; id=&quot;karma-60108&quot;&gt;0&lt;/span&gt; &lt;small&gt;(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ignore the first link
<p class="top-comments">Current score: <span class="top-comments-karma" id="karma-60108">0</span> <small>(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)</small></p>
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		<title>By: Bubble Lad</title>
		<link>http://vancouvercondo.info/2009/12/banker-bubble-talk-bundle.html#comment-60107</link>
		<dc:creator>Bubble Lad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 22:05:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vancouvercondo.info/?p=1523#comment-60107</guid>
		<description>Your joke of the day, courtesy Remax.

http://www.vancouversun.com/business/real-estate/Housing+market+remain+strong+2010/2298500/story.html&lt;p class=&quot;top-comments&quot;&gt;Current score: &lt;span class=&quot;top-comments-karma&quot; id=&quot;karma-60107&quot;&gt;3&lt;/span&gt; &lt;small&gt;(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your joke of the day, courtesy Remax.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.vancouversun.com/business/real-estate/Housing+market+remain+strong+2010/2298500/story.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.vancouversun.com/bu.....story.html</a>
<p class="top-comments">Current score: <span class="top-comments-karma" id="karma-60107">3</span> <small>(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)</small></p>
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		<title>By: Bubble Lad</title>
		<link>http://vancouvercondo.info/2009/12/banker-bubble-talk-bundle.html#comment-60106</link>
		<dc:creator>Bubble Lad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 22:02:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vancouvercondo.info/?p=1523#comment-60106</guid>
		<description>Your joke of the day, courtesy Remax.

http://smr.newswire.ca/en/remax/housing-performance-expected-to-accelerate-in-2010

Look for it tomorrow as a thinly re-written puff piece in the Vancouver Sun.&lt;p class=&quot;top-comments&quot;&gt;Current score: &lt;span class=&quot;top-comments-karma&quot; id=&quot;karma-60106&quot;&gt;2&lt;/span&gt; &lt;small&gt;(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your joke of the day, courtesy Remax.</p>
<p><a href="http://smr.newswire.ca/en/remax/housing-performance-expected-to-accelerate-in-2010" rel="nofollow">http://smr.newswire.ca/en/rema.....te-in-2010</a></p>
<p>Look for it tomorrow as a thinly re-written puff piece in the Vancouver Sun.
<p class="top-comments">Current score: <span class="top-comments-karma" id="karma-60106">2</span> <small>(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)</small></p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://vancouvercondo.info/2009/12/banker-bubble-talk-bundle.html#comment-60105</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 21:47:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vancouvercondo.info/?p=1523#comment-60105</guid>
		<description>@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-60103&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Drachen&lt;/a&gt;: 

I did say prices would recover after correcting, but I did not predict the level of the recovery.

I don&#039;t remember your predictions of the above.  All I recall is that you have been calling for a 40% correction.  Feel free to back up your assertion, not that I won&#039;t take you on your word.

My predictions have all been mostly correct.  As far as calling for a listings peak, you have to admit that I was more correct than anybody else including yourself.  I said listings would peak after the Summer of 2008 and not continue rising as had been the general bearish sentiment.  I picked a number and barely missed it.  You are splitting hairs.  Imagine if I had said the DOW would correct to 6,500 a couple years ago.  Would you really say I was wrong because the recent Dow low was 6,550?  No, it would be stupid to make such a claim.  I&#039;m not sure why you would do so in my case.  It only makes you look petty.&lt;p class=&quot;top-comments&quot;&gt;Current score: &lt;span class=&quot;top-comments-karma&quot; id=&quot;karma-60105&quot;&gt;-5&lt;/span&gt; &lt;small&gt;(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@<a class="atr_link" href="#comment-60103" rel="nofollow">Drachen</a>: </p>
<p>I did say prices would recover after correcting, but I did not predict the level of the recovery.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t remember your predictions of the above.  All I recall is that you have been calling for a 40% correction.  Feel free to back up your assertion, not that I won&#8217;t take you on your word.</p>
<p>My predictions have all been mostly correct.  As far as calling for a listings peak, you have to admit that I was more correct than anybody else including yourself.  I said listings would peak after the Summer of 2008 and not continue rising as had been the general bearish sentiment.  I picked a number and barely missed it.  You are splitting hairs.  Imagine if I had said the DOW would correct to 6,500 a couple years ago.  Would you really say I was wrong because the recent Dow low was 6,550?  No, it would be stupid to make such a claim.  I&#8217;m not sure why you would do so in my case.  It only makes you look petty.
<p class="top-comments">Current score: <span class="top-comments-karma" id="karma-60105">-5</span> <small>(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)</small></p>
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		<title>By: Starving Artist</title>
		<link>http://vancouvercondo.info/2009/12/banker-bubble-talk-bundle.html#comment-60104</link>
		<dc:creator>Starving Artist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 21:46:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vancouvercondo.info/?p=1523#comment-60104</guid>
		<description>Maggie&#039;s latest post...

&lt;i&gt;&quot;If memory serves me right, it’s been early 2007 since we’ve seen lineups for Vancouver condo pre-sales but that changed on Saturday as the investors lined up (in the rain) to take advantage of the low prices at The Mark, on Seymour and Pacific.

Onni’s new building will be 41 storeys and prices started at $325,000. Given that completion will be 2013, it’s a no brainer that investors can only win as this is one of the final sites available in Yaletown and we assume prices will be higher in 2013 than they are now.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Hahah yes.... no brainer indeed&lt;p class=&quot;top-comments&quot;&gt;Current score: &lt;span class=&quot;top-comments-karma&quot; id=&quot;karma-60104&quot;&gt;17&lt;/span&gt; &lt;small&gt;(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maggie&#8217;s latest post&#8230;</p>
<p><i>&#8220;If memory serves me right, it’s been early 2007 since we’ve seen lineups for Vancouver condo pre-sales but that changed on Saturday as the investors lined up (in the rain) to take advantage of the low prices at The Mark, on Seymour and Pacific.</p>
<p>Onni’s new building will be 41 storeys and prices started at $325,000. Given that completion will be 2013, it’s a no brainer that investors can only win as this is one of the final sites available in Yaletown and we assume prices will be higher in 2013 than they are now.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Hahah yes&#8230;. no brainer indeed
<p class="top-comments">Current score: <span class="top-comments-karma" id="karma-60104">17</span> <small>(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)</small></p>
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		<title>By: Drachen</title>
		<link>http://vancouvercondo.info/2009/12/banker-bubble-talk-bundle.html#comment-60103</link>
		<dc:creator>Drachen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 21:30:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vancouvercondo.info/?p=1523#comment-60103</guid>
		<description>None actually.  As I said before, neither of our predictions have diverged from what has happened so far.  I predicted a drop followed by a rise, followed by a big drop.  You predicted a drop followed by stable prices (and they rose quickly instead of being stable) so technically I&#039;ve been more accurate than you so far.

I&#039;ve told you all that before.  Did you forget or are you just being disingenuous again?

Also, on one out of five predictions you have not been proved wrong YET on the other four you failed.  Don&#039;t forget those predictions when you showcase your record.

You know I wouldn&#039;t call you out so often if you weren&#039;t so systematically dishonest about this sort of thing.&lt;p class=&quot;top-comments&quot;&gt;Current score: &lt;span class=&quot;top-comments-karma&quot; id=&quot;karma-60103&quot;&gt;6&lt;/span&gt; &lt;small&gt;(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>None actually.  As I said before, neither of our predictions have diverged from what has happened so far.  I predicted a drop followed by a rise, followed by a big drop.  You predicted a drop followed by stable prices (and they rose quickly instead of being stable) so technically I&#8217;ve been more accurate than you so far.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve told you all that before.  Did you forget or are you just being disingenuous again?</p>
<p>Also, on one out of five predictions you have not been proved wrong YET on the other four you failed.  Don&#8217;t forget those predictions when you showcase your record.</p>
<p>You know I wouldn&#8217;t call you out so often if you weren&#8217;t so systematically dishonest about this sort of thing.
<p class="top-comments">Current score: <span class="top-comments-karma" id="karma-60103">6</span> <small>(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)</small></p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://vancouvercondo.info/2009/12/banker-bubble-talk-bundle.html#comment-60102</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 21:17:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vancouvercondo.info/?p=1523#comment-60102</guid>
		<description>@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-60100&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Drachen&lt;/a&gt;: 

Endangering futures? That cuts both ways.

I don&#039;t just look at technical analysis (i.e. graphing).  I also look at fundamental valuation.  I look at all the data and consider different opinions. 

You have your beliefs and I have mine.  I am not trying to sell anybody a &#039;bill of goods&#039;.    People are free to make their own minds up.  

Again... the facts are that I have been quite accurate to date.  How are your predictions doing again?  How many years have you been wrong now?&lt;p class=&quot;top-comments&quot;&gt;Current score: &lt;span class=&quot;top-comments-karma&quot; id=&quot;karma-60102&quot;&gt;-4&lt;/span&gt; &lt;small&gt;(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@<a class="atr_link" href="#comment-60100" rel="nofollow">Drachen</a>: </p>
<p>Endangering futures? That cuts both ways.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t just look at technical analysis (i.e. graphing).  I also look at fundamental valuation.  I look at all the data and consider different opinions. </p>
<p>You have your beliefs and I have mine.  I am not trying to sell anybody a &#8216;bill of goods&#8217;.    People are free to make their own minds up.  </p>
<p>Again&#8230; the facts are that I have been quite accurate to date.  How are your predictions doing again?  How many years have you been wrong now?
<p class="top-comments">Current score: <span class="top-comments-karma" id="karma-60102">-4</span> <small>(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)</small></p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://vancouvercondo.info/2009/12/banker-bubble-talk-bundle.html#comment-60101</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 21:10:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vancouvercondo.info/?p=1523#comment-60101</guid>
		<description>@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-60097&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Anonymous&lt;/a&gt;: 

I am betting you have never thrown a punch in your life.  I bet you would piss yourself if I so much as raised my hand to you.&lt;p class=&quot;top-comments&quot;&gt;Current score: &lt;span class=&quot;top-comments-karma&quot; id=&quot;karma-60101&quot;&gt;-19&lt;/span&gt; &lt;small&gt;(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@<a class="atr_link" href="#comment-60097" rel="nofollow">Anonymous</a>: </p>
<p>I am betting you have never thrown a punch in your life.  I bet you would piss yourself if I so much as raised my hand to you.
<p class="top-comments">Current score: <span class="top-comments-karma" id="karma-60101">-19</span> <small>(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)</small></p>
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		<title>By: Drachen</title>
		<link>http://vancouvercondo.info/2009/12/banker-bubble-talk-bundle.html#comment-60100</link>
		<dc:creator>Drachen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 21:00:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vancouvercondo.info/?p=1523#comment-60100</guid>
		<description>@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-60097&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Anonymous&lt;/a&gt;: 

That&#039;s ummm...  Unnecessarily violent don&#039;t you think?

I mean he&#039;s selling us a bill of goods that he doesn&#039;t appear to entirely believe in, he&#039;s disingenuous and he encourages people to spend recklessly and endanger their future financial well-being and he&#039;s determined to use a system of forecasting that&#039;s proven inaccurate in testing over a system that&#039;s proven accurate in testing.

All of which makes him a bad person but all of us have our bad sides don&#039;t we?

I say beating him up now will prove nothing, wait until AFTER the real estate collapse when he&#039;s curled up in a foetal position contemplating how he could have been so terribly terribly wrong, THEN kick him while he&#039;s down.

Nah, might hurt your toe, he&#039;s not worth that.

Merry Christmas!&lt;p class=&quot;top-comments&quot;&gt;Current score: &lt;span class=&quot;top-comments-karma&quot; id=&quot;karma-60100&quot;&gt;6&lt;/span&gt; &lt;small&gt;(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@<a class="atr_link" href="#comment-60097" rel="nofollow">Anonymous</a>: </p>
<p>That&#8217;s ummm&#8230;  Unnecessarily violent don&#8217;t you think?</p>
<p>I mean he&#8217;s selling us a bill of goods that he doesn&#8217;t appear to entirely believe in, he&#8217;s disingenuous and he encourages people to spend recklessly and endanger their future financial well-being and he&#8217;s determined to use a system of forecasting that&#8217;s proven inaccurate in testing over a system that&#8217;s proven accurate in testing.</p>
<p>All of which makes him a bad person but all of us have our bad sides don&#8217;t we?</p>
<p>I say beating him up now will prove nothing, wait until AFTER the real estate collapse when he&#8217;s curled up in a foetal position contemplating how he could have been so terribly terribly wrong, THEN kick him while he&#8217;s down.</p>
<p>Nah, might hurt your toe, he&#8217;s not worth that.</p>
<p>Merry Christmas!
<p class="top-comments">Current score: <span class="top-comments-karma" id="karma-60100">6</span> <small>(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)</small></p>
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		<title>By: observer</title>
		<link>http://vancouvercondo.info/2009/12/banker-bubble-talk-bundle.html#comment-60099</link>
		<dc:creator>observer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 20:54:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vancouvercondo.info/?p=1523#comment-60099</guid>
		<description>And some services may be trivial to some people but be non-trivial in the big picture.&lt;p class=&quot;top-comments&quot;&gt;Current score: &lt;span class=&quot;top-comments-karma&quot; id=&quot;karma-60099&quot;&gt;1&lt;/span&gt; &lt;small&gt;(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And some services may be trivial to some people but be non-trivial in the big picture.
<p class="top-comments">Current score: <span class="top-comments-karma" id="karma-60099">1</span> <small>(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)</small></p>
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		<title>By: &#8220;After having met recently with “respectable mortgage brokers” who have been in the business for over 25+ years, I am now firmly convinced that this market is going to have a crash landing like one never experienced before.&#8221; &#171; Vancou</title>
		<link>http://vancouvercondo.info/2009/12/banker-bubble-talk-bundle.html#comment-60098</link>
		<dc:creator>&#8220;After having met recently with “respectable mortgage brokers” who have been in the business for over 25+ years, I am now firmly convinced that this market is going to have a crash landing like one never experienced before.&#8221; &#171; Vancou</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 20:53:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vancouvercondo.info/?p=1523#comment-60098</guid>
		<description>[...] position of being able to experience both, first hand. This lengthy anecdote and opinion from San Franciscan in Vancouver at vancouvercondo.info 3 Dec 2009 12:06 pm [...]&lt;p class=&quot;top-comments&quot;&gt;Current score: &lt;span class=&quot;top-comments-karma&quot; id=&quot;karma-60098&quot;&gt;5&lt;/span&gt; &lt;small&gt;(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] position of being able to experience both, first hand. This lengthy anecdote and opinion from San Franciscan in Vancouver at vancouvercondo.info 3 Dec 2009 12:06 pm [...]
<p class="top-comments">Current score: <span class="top-comments-karma" id="karma-60098">5</span> <small>(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)</small></p>
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		<title>By: DEFAULT NAME</title>
		<link>http://vancouvercondo.info/2009/12/banker-bubble-talk-bundle.html#comment-60097</link>
		<dc:creator>DEFAULT NAME</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 20:52:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vancouvercondo.info/?p=1523#comment-60097</guid>
		<description>If I saw Dave and punched him in the mouth he wouuld probably fall to the ground and cry.
Then we he finally got back on his feet he&#039;d claim that it was him that hit me and that his teeth are now worth more because they are in the street.
Then I&#039;d hit him again and he&#039;d be out cold.
Only to get up and say that it never happened.

At that point I&#039;d smack him and he wouldn&#039;t get up&lt;p class=&quot;top-comments&quot;&gt;Current score: &lt;span class=&quot;top-comments-karma&quot; id=&quot;karma-60097&quot;&gt;-14&lt;/span&gt; &lt;small&gt;(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If I saw Dave and punched him in the mouth he wouuld probably fall to the ground and cry.<br />
Then we he finally got back on his feet he&#8217;d claim that it was him that hit me and that his teeth are now worth more because they are in the street.<br />
Then I&#8217;d hit him again and he&#8217;d be out cold.<br />
Only to get up and say that it never happened.</p>
<p>At that point I&#8217;d smack him and he wouldn&#8217;t get up
<p class="top-comments">Current score: <span class="top-comments-karma" id="karma-60097">-14</span> <small>(to vote for this comment, please visit the site)</small></p>
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