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January 20th, 2010 at 2:49 pm
81
People might view your comments as racist because when people use a racist term, or write something that could be construed as racist, they always qualify it by saying they are from that race.
“Eg. The new townhouse across from me is completely owned by asian investors….I am asian, but that is going to affect things around here”
January 20th, 2010 at 11:51 am
“People who blame Vancouver’s high house prices on immigrants are barking up the wrong tree. I’m suspicious of them.”
Actually it’s the bulls who believe immigration is why prices will go up forever.
“I live in Kitsilano. I earn around $50,000 a year. If working class means mechanics, mailmen, construction workers, then these people do live in Kits, Dunbar, West End and Pt Grey.” « Vancouver Real Estate Anecdote Archive Says:
January 20th, 2010 at 1:38 am
[...] [average SFH now over $1.5M], this from Stan at vancouvercondo.info 19 Jan 2010 4:10 pm and 3:21 pm [...]
“I live in Kitsilano. I earn around $50,000 a year. If working class means mechanics, mailmen, construction workers, then these people do live in Kits, Dunbar, West End and Pt Grey.” « Vancouver Real Estate Anecdote Archive Says:
January 20th, 2010 at 1:31 am
[...] discussion around who lives in the West-side of Vancouver [average SFH now over $1.5M], this from Stan at vancouvercondo.info 19 Jan 2010 4:10 pm [...]
January 19th, 2010 at 5:38 pm
Stan, this picture is for you with love.
http://blog.vancouverbiennale.com/?tag=louise-gadd
January 19th, 2010 at 5:07 pm
“non-indiginous”
January 19th, 2010 at 5:07 pm
By the way Vancouver has always been an “ethnic enclave” if he means a place populated by non-indignant people. The city started as a British enclave. Or do Brits not count as immigrants? Out.
January 19th, 2010 at 5:01 pm
Listen I didn’t start with this. How about the guy who did – the one who said this…
“Lets face it, Vancouver will be an ethnic enclave in less than 20 years if the current pace of immigration and settlement continues.”
… explains what he means. What exactly is an “ethnic enclave” for a start? Then we can decide who the racist is.
January 19th, 2010 at 4:57 pm
What did I say that was racist? “whitey”? I’m white – I was being facetious. People who blame Vancouver’s high house prices on immigrants are barking up the wrong tree. I’m suspicious of them.
January 19th, 2010 at 4:54 pm
79
No…just a reaction probably to your racist comments
January 19th, 2010 at 4:47 pm
Hmm so anyone who says something positive about Vancouver or immigration gets negative post ratings. I get this blog now….
January 19th, 2010 at 4:40 pm
“Or some of us can critically point out that there are positives and negatives to both, as opposed to the simplistic, zero sum approach of good or bad…”
You’re putting words in my mouth. Of course I’m talking in general terms. I stand by my previous statement. In too many of these blogs we see word like immigration and ethnicity used in, frankly, a bigoted way and I don’t like it.
Vancouver needs controlled immigration or who exactly do you think will look after you when you’re old and dribbling? Because I hate to break this to you but we are a rapidly ageing country with a low birth rate and you’re going to be thanking those immigrants in 20 years time because they’ll be the ones wiping your chin.
January 19th, 2010 at 4:37 pm
PS #73 I have also lived here for decades. I choose not to buy here that’s all – but not being able to buy somewhere does not make it a bad place to live.
There are a lot of places I couldn’t afford to buy somewhere in, and I like a lot of those places. Funnily enough they all tend to be places people want to live, and I would rather rent (or save and eventually buy) in a city people want to live in than buy (cheaply or even affordably) in somewhere no-one likes. This is the conundrum people who are desperate to buy a house face! I personally am happy to rent my whole life but I like to keep track of when a good time to buy is – hence I read blogs like these. I reserve the right to defend a city I like though.
January 19th, 2010 at 4:36 pm
Why do I stay – simple – family.
As for outlooks,
“Some see immigration and multiculturalism as negative things. Others see them as positives.”
Or some of us can critically point out that there are positives and negatives to both, as opposed to the simplistic, zero sum approach of good or bad…
January 19th, 2010 at 4:30 pm
#73 And yet you still call yourself a “long time Vancouverite”. Why stay if it’s so bad?
As I said, all cities change over time. Vancouver is doing pretty well so far – just for not having a freeway into the centre for a start – the only north american city of its size to have resisted that. I don’t own a car and the transit is actually excellent. It all depends on your outlook. Some see immigration and multiculturalism as negative things. Others see them as positives.
January 19th, 2010 at 4:23 pm
#71 I already said it’s overvalued and I think it will decline. That’s not a reason to run the place down though.
I have travelled and lived abroad (and in two other Canadian cities), and I base my opinions partly on that. I do think Vancouver doesn’t have many competitors for the title of nicest city to live in Canada, depending on how much cold you can take and what your interests are. It’s like the nicest city in any country, or the nicest neighbourhood in a city, or the nicest street in a neighbourhood – prices are higher. And yes I know it rains a lot. This is just my rationale for the high prices – it’s not that I think it’s a good thing.
And the reason I’m posting is I have a problem with the obvious hypocrisy a lot of people on blogs like this display – they knock a city they obviously (otherwise why read this blog?) live in and/or wish they could afford to buy a house in.
January 19th, 2010 at 4:21 pm
69 Stan
In fairness to #67, I have lived in Vancouver since the early 70s, and he or she does have some valid points.
If you have spoken to anyone that has lived here for decades, they will note that the city has become less “liveable” in some ways, but more “liveable” in others. Back then, people were friendly, less focussed on consumerism, had civic pride, had solid paying jobs, and seemed to appreciate the natural beauty more than today.
Sure, we have better transportation systems today, and some better restaurants, but at the cost of reduced affordability and a now neurotic superficial population. Lets not forget that fact that we now receive global attention for our levels of crime and gang activity, and that our economy is complete shell of what it used to be.
We may have “grown up” as a city, but we have grown up to be a completely self-absorbed, insecure teenager who everyone tells to be quiet on the bus because they fail to realize how loud, annoying and insignificant they are.
By the way, I don’t appreciate your overtly racist labels like “whitey” and your completely racist conclusions that “whitey” is the only social group buying drugs. Read a newspaper for once, and look at the names of the crime lords, grow operators, fraudsters, and gangsters either incarcerated or killed. They come from all social groups, but there sure is a disproportionate number from some groups when compared to their representation in the population. And don’t pull the PC or race card on this one because that no longer stiffles discussion and debate – it has been used too many times in knee jerk reactions.
January 19th, 2010 at 4:15 pm
@Stan:
And the fact that so many people read blogs like this because they are so desperate to buy in Vancouver kind of proves how attractive a place it is.
——
A bit of a perplexing statement! This is a place to discuss various arguments that support or disprove the presence of a bubble. I, like many others that come here I suspect, have never been less inclined (or desperate to use your word) to buy anything in my entire life. The people that are desperate to buy are the very nut jobs that this blog discusses.
PS: there’s paying a premium, and there’s being delusional about expectations on what the return for paying that premium will be.
January 19th, 2010 at 4:15 pm
Stan…have you ever travelled or lived anywhere else? If not, you need to get out a little more. Vancouver is nice and has a lot going for it, however, not that much to be the only place in the world immune from declining real estate.
Give your head a shake, overvalued is still overvalued no matter how you slice it.
January 19th, 2010 at 4:10 pm
Drachan – “I take offence to this too. Kitsilano, Dunbar, Pt. Grey Shaughnessy and the West End (and maybe a few others) are not working class neighbourhoods (all in about the same price range). Who DOES live there? ”
I live in Kitsilano. I earn around $50,000 a year. Almost all Canadians are Middle Class these days anyhow, but if working class means mechanics, mailmen, construction workers, then all of these people do live in Kits, Dunbar, West End and Pt Grey. So do students, retail workers, waiters…
January 19th, 2010 at 3:53 pm
“Lets face it, Vancouver will be an ethnic enclave in less than 20 years if the current pace of immigration and settlement continues.”
I’m suspicious of anyone who brings ethnicity and immigration into debates like these, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt. Vancouver is already about 50% “ethnic” – it’s one of the city’s attractions not one of its downsides and it’s not the reason for the high prices.
Immigration will not keep housing prices high. People do not move to a new country and then immediately buy a house.
“this once quaint and tranquil city” Ha! This city has only ever seen serious rioting twice. Once when the railroad was being built and once when the ‘Nucks lost the Stanley Cup – both a fair while ago. So I see no signs of disintegrating social systems (a gang turf war doesn’t count – who’s buying the drugs they fight over by the way? Immigrants? I don’t think so. That would be whitey.)
I’m sure every city goes through a quaint spell before it’s 130 years old. Kind of like kids go through a cute stage. Cities grow and develop just like people and sometimes you just have to accept that or “abandon” it and move to somewhere that is still at the quaint stage, like the Interior (of course then you are just hastening your new home’s development from “quaint” to “ethnic enclave”. You are essentially becoming the immigrants you seem to dislike.)
vancouver has developed very well in comparison to other cities and I get fed up with people running it down just because they want to buy a house in their favourite part of town but can’t afford it.
January 19th, 2010 at 3:49 pm
@Ally123:
“Right now prices seem fairly reasonable in Port Coquitlam.”
Prices throughout the Lower Mainland are well offside, The only places I’d say Real Estate in Canada is a fairly good deal (but will probably still drop a bit) is east of Ontario or North of Prince George with a few exceptions in smaller towns. PoCo is not one of the exceptions.
“n your general opinion would you say just hold off from buying right now for: a year? 6 months? 2 Years?”
2 Years or perhaps a little more, IMO the time to buy is when the average detached is in the 450-400 range and still heading down, it will mean lots of inventory and you can probably get a deal because prices should still be falling on a fairly steep curve and the general psychology will be a “sell” mentality. The best investment advice I’ve heard is to buy when prices are falling and sell when they’re still going up. Most people practice the opposite and most people working that kind of short term investment do worse than the average.
January 19th, 2010 at 3:40 pm
Lets face it, Vancouver will be an ethnic enclave in less than 20 years if the current pace of immigration and settlement continues. It will also exhibit the classic divide between the haves and have nots, and the moral foundation of this once quaint and tranquil city will degrade even further. It is unfortunate, but many will “abandon” this city in the coming years, and many already have, opting to settle in other regions such as the Interior that provide a sense of community.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with those two sides of city living, just as long as you know what you are getting into when you want to buy in the city.
January 19th, 2010 at 3:34 pm
“I expect walking the same walk on Granville in a few months time, watching the new stores being boarded up as the tourists leave, the homeless re-claim the streets and the city reverts to its true self.”
This is what I don’t get about this blog. Are you deliberately running the city down to put people off buying? Or do you genuinely believe what you wrote? (I personally don’t like Granville St but don’t recognise your view of it). And if you genuinely believe what you wrote why on earth are you reading blogs about buying real estate here? Why would you want to live here if it’s that bad?
I constantly come across this on the RE blogs I read – people who talk Vancouver down but are still desperate to buy here. Makes no sense at all. (I’m a bear by the way and would like nothing better than housing prices to come down to affordable levels).
January 19th, 2010 at 3:21 pm
“Vancouver is an irrational bubble.”
I disagree. I think there are reasons for Vancouver’s bubble and they are all down to the “livability”, the “mountains and ocean” and all the other cliches – whether we like to admit it or not. The comparatively mild climate compared to other cities doesn’t help. The fact is that people with money – mostly Canadians, but also people looking for an international move – find Vancouver attractive and are willing to pay a premium to live here. Others who grew up in Vancouver really don’t want to leave and will also pay a premium. I myself am willing to pay a premium to live in Vancouver, just as I would expect to pay a premium to live in a nice neighbourhood of any city. I can’t afford the current premium, but I still rent here.
I love Vancouver and have lived here most of my life but kind of accept I may never be able to buy and might have to wait to inherit. I do think, while Vancouver isn’t perfect, it is a damn fine place to live and if I had money and wanted to live in a peaceful English-speaking country with good services, low crime and a relatively high standard of living, there really aren’t all that many other options. Vancouver isn’t everyone’s cup of tea but it is certainly attractive enough to be a lot of people’s cup of tea – enough to keep prices relatively high (unfortunately).
And the fact that so many people read blogs like this because they are so desperate to buy in Vancouver kind of proves how attractive a place it is. If it wasn’t so attractive most of us reading this and Garth’s blog would have moved on elsewhere. But where in Canada compares if you’re used to what’s on offer in Vancouver? Nowhere really. The other cities are great in their own ways, but are very different. So I still think Vancouver housing won’t go up as much or as fast for a long time, but I don’t think it’s going to crash as much as we’d like. I don’t like the unaffordability and my main concern is the type of people who will live here if the current situation continues – we won’t get a good social mix and we won’t be able to sustain good services as key personnel (nurses, police, firefighters, retail workers, teachers, etc) won’t be able to afford to live and work here. That’s the point where I leave.
January 19th, 2010 at 3:05 pm
“All people seem to talk about is RE and crime” — Oh the irony of posting that on an RE blog…
January 19th, 2010 at 2:52 pm
@Drachen. Thanks.I agree..The only rational way to compare. Since you replied I guess I’ll ask your opinion on the following–Location—Right now prices seem fairly reasonable in Port Coquitlam. I understand the reason is location but 1) Do you think prices are still overpriced in this and other surrounding areas? 2)Have people commented on location areas and issues on this website? IF so where can I find the link.
In your general opinion would you say just hold off from buying right now for: a year? 6 months? 2 Years?…Just curious.
Thanks.
January 19th, 2010 at 2:44 pm
@Anonymous:
May I disagree.
A generation or more ago Vancouver was nice. Frankly the city has become quite nasty. Endless conflict between the “haves” and “have-nots”. All people seem to talk about is RE and crime. No interest in any genuinely productive activities. Expecting something for nothing just because you live in the “best place on earth”.
Sort of Canada’s Miami, in short.
If you spend some time in other Canadian cities you will notice how edgy Vancouver has become in comparison. Even in Toronto people often seem more laid back.
January 19th, 2010 at 2:40 pm
@VRENGD:
“Trust me, there are no international investors buying Van RE right now. It is just a bunch of deluded, frenzied locals.”
We don’t have to even trust you, Landcor keeps track of these things for us and publishes figures occasionally, according to them the ownership of Vancouver properties has been dropping in the last couple of years (ie, more foreigners are selling than are buying right now). So there’s a reliable source for statistics, not just an anecdote to show the truth.
January 19th, 2010 at 2:36 pm
@Ally123:
Yes, all of us talk in real (inflation adjusted) dollars when we’re discussing these things, it’s the only rational way to compare commodities over a span of years, only Dave insists on using nominal dollars but he’s a bit soft in the head if you know what I mean.
International RE Investor: “We are not stupid. This market is probably the worst RE investment in the entire world. I’ll buy Vancouver RE in 2011 when the values are 60% lower.” « Vancouver Real Estate Anecdote Archive Says:
January 19th, 2010 at 2:31 pm
[...] January 2010 · Leave a Comment This from VRENGD at vancouvercondo.info 19 Jan 2010 1:42 pm [...]
January 19th, 2010 at 2:29 pm
Just wanted to say this website is a great forum for discussion. I am thinking about entering the market here but im definitely still on the sidelines..Interest rates have nowhere to go but up…So anyone just scraping by now will have a world of trouble on their hands…
One other point to add..Do any of you people factor inflation into the equation? Just a question because if you plug an inflation calculator you will note that $200K in 1980 would have the purchasing power of $500K in 2008…Anyways…Prices continue to go up but lets not forget inflation over time… But I see the other side of the argument…Prices in Van are out of proportion over the short term (last 5 years).
January 19th, 2010 at 2:15 pm
Thanks for the discussion all, some great posts.
Regarding that Slate article: The author should point out that the Okanagan wine that she was sipping in North Vancouver would have cost her LESS to purchase and consume in Manhattan. Apart from all the other forms of insanity we have in Vancouver, we also have the most prohibitive alcohol taxes & policies of almost any jurisdiction you’d be able to name. As with RE, the vast majority of Vancouverites seem to be quite happy to overpay large amounts to consume dreck.
Examples of these consequences:
a) Good red wines costing US$25/bottle in California sell for Can$60/bottle in retail stores here. (Even with the loonie at parity!).
b) Okanagan wines cheaper to buy in Quebec and Ontario than in Vancouver!
c) A bottle of red wine consumed in a high end restaurant in LA cost the same (identical bottle) in a retail outlet in Vancouver (anybody who knows anything about restaurant mark-up knows how insane that is).
You don’t have to be a wine buff to get the point. People here are either paying much more for the same thing, or settling for poorer quality at affordable prices.
January 19th, 2010 at 2:10 pm
Vancouver School Board advises of 800 potential layoffs…
http://www.vancouversun.com/bu.....story.html
January 19th, 2010 at 2:06 pm
“By any rational measure (historic price growth, price to rent, price to income) this market is probably the worst RE investment in the entire world.
Trust me, there are no international investors buying Van RE right now. It is just a bunch of deluded, frenzied locals.”
Absolutely. Anyone believing otherwise is in dreamland. Is Vancouver a nice little city? Of course it is. Emphasis on little …
January 19th, 2010 at 1:42 pm
That’s not entirely true, we have EA (and various other video-game and FX companies), 1-800 GOT JUNK, Squirrel (the POS company, no not THAT POS, the other POS).”
This is laughable. Compare to Seattle which has, Sarbucks, Costco, Microsoft, Boeing. And those are just the ones I can come up with without any thought. Seattle is a real city with sane real estate values.
Vancouver is an irrational bubble. Just like Ireland, it’s economy is founded on construction and RE speculation. When that stops, we will have 10% unemployment. Look for it in 2011.
I personally have about $1.5M in cash left in the bank after a couple of purchases in California (where rents cover my mortgage payments plus some profit). I waiting to buy Vancouver RE in 2011 when the values are 60% lower.
The bulls on this site think that international investors will buy Van RE at these levels. Let me tell you something: we are not stupid.
By any rational measure (historic price growth, price to rent, price to income) this market is probably the worst RE investment in the entire world.
Trust me, there are no international investors buying Van RE right now. It is just a bunch of deluded, frenzied locals.
January 19th, 2010 at 1:29 pm
Watch more people come into this city after the olympics. The Olympics will bring lots of great benefits including a tourism boom. Anyone spreading bearish news here should not live in Vancouver. We should all support this great city. I have faith in our city and our economy. The boom continues and expect another 10% rise in property value in the next 12 months. Watch it happen.
January 19th, 2010 at 1:27 pm
I live living in said fishing village. Now, if only the RE prices reflected this…
January 19th, 2010 at 1:14 pm
Vancouver is an overgrown fishing and logging village with delusions of grandeur …
That pretty much sums it up
But we do have Rennie he is a one man corporation and he’s a tough one to keep down. The big corporate Cheerleader. One last kick at the Cat make it good Bobby.