drip, drip, drip
Like that battery-marketing bunny, the leaky condo crisis keeps going and going.
Owners in a 71-unit building in Cloverdale say their builder repaired some leak problems a few years ago. At the time, the work was covered by warranty.
But recent testing found moisture in the building’s walls, and homeowners learned that they would be hit with a bill of about $45,000.
For some owners, that was too much to handle, and they just walked away. Eight owners have yet to come up with the necessary cash.
“They’re going to be foreclosing. I have until the end of December to come up with any monies,” owner Shirley Hall said. “I guess I have to walk away from it.”
The building was built in the 90s, at the height of the leaky condo crisis. For 11 years, the province gave interest-free loans to those facing massive repair bills.
A 2008 report done for the government said that after 2012, anywhere from 14,000 to 24,000 leaky condos would still near repairs, and that the demand for loans would be high until 2017.
..but as you all know, that interest free leaky condo repair loan program has been axed. Housing minister Rich Coleman suggests taking out equity to pay for repairs saying “Even seniors can get reverse mortgages — they’re pretty economical”.
Hat-tip to Bizznitch for the link.
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July 22nd, 2010 at 10:09 am
@fixie guy:
The only reasonable expectation a buyer has with relation to RE is that the property is not subject to extraordinary hazards like being a former grow op/drug lab, UFFI, site contamination, severe structural problems, etc. But as far as ordinary maintenance issues go it’s caveat emptor.
If you know of any judgments in BC that have said otherwise, please share them with us.
July 22nd, 2010 at 9:07 am
patriotz Says: “My point is that if something is not in the contract, and there is no statutory condition, there is no obligation to do something.”
Your point is BS. Google “contract law” and “reasonable expectation”, and turn off Fox.
July 22nd, 2010 at 8:27 am
@space889: “owever total costwise, I think the inspection department is the best setup. Off course whether it works properly or not is another matter.”
I don’t think it ever can. City inspectors are acting on behalf of their employers, the City. There will always be fundamental clashes between the City’s and your best interests, even if the system works smoothly and it’s legislated up the wazoo. I would still get advice from someone who is working for me directly or I get what I deserve.
July 22nd, 2010 at 8:24 am
@Strataman:
Oh they have, if the aggrieved party was important enough. Remember “Cave-In Foods”.
But don’t expect it for you.
July 22nd, 2010 at 6:00 am
213 “Just curious but is a project engineer an “actual engineer”…are they governed the same way as say a mechanical or structural engineer would be”
Yes they are all registered P.Eng with the association, which to my knowledge has never seriously gone after or reprimanded any engineer that is part of a large consultant firm that works for major developers. The association generally chases individual engineers who for whatever reason are not part of the “in crowd”.
The professional association covering BC Engineering is a joke.
I have met several engineers from various specialties that have with drawn their services due to shoddy workmanship and have had there own Association of Professional Engineers black list THEM, NOT the ones doing the lousy work.
July 22nd, 2010 at 5:31 am
@space889:
My point is that if something is not in the contract, and there is no statutory condition, there is no obligation to do something. Contracts are primarily about obligations. A commits to obligations to B in return for B committing to obligations to A.
There is an obligation in common law for a dwelling that’s sold to be habitable at time of sale (unless specified otherwise), but that’s about all. The onus is on the buyer to check out the property before sale, or to get the seller to commit to whatever obligations the buyer wants in the sales contract. And if the seller won’t commit, there’s no sale.
And comparing a contract for delivery of a tradable asset to employment (which is the delivery of a service in real time) is pretty off base. For starters, the latter is full of statutory conditions underlying all employment contracts.
July 22nd, 2010 at 12:39 am
off topic ( but I bet this will fall into the leaky bucket in a few years )
OV rental prices all over the place
http://vancouver.en.craigslist.....;bedrooms=
July 22nd, 2010 at 12:18 am
hahaha bears…
wait for the summer they said…
wait for the HST to kick in, for the Olympics to be over, wait for interest rates to rise..
well, the big show is over, the HST is in, and the bank is increasing rates, ever so slowly…
and yet still a balanced 50% sell list ratio…
oh bears, you will be waiting another decade for your dream crash
July 22nd, 2010 at 12:17 am
It’s not brain surgery:
http://www.uaw.org/page/wages-and-labor-costs
The claim workers ‘get more in benefits’ than they get in base wages is tales for dummies. From the same page:
“In addition to regular hourly pay, the labor cost figures cited by the companies include other expenses associated with having a person on payroll. This includes overtime, shift premiums and the costs of negotiated benefits such as holidays, vacations, health care, pensions and education and training. It also includes statutory costs, which employers are required to pay by law, such as federal contributions for Social Security and Medicare, and state payments to workers’ compensation and unemployment insurance funds.
It takes big cajones to claim workers are ‘compensated’ the training required to do company designed tasks. I don’t know how many here have worked the line like me (many, many years ago) but you don’t get a basic paycheck and then an equal or greater bag-o-cash with it. In fact you don’t even get the paycheck after dues. And you don’t get to demand overtime, the company offers and it’s a tool to keep staff rolls down. My non-union employer of the last decade also provides a health care plan as a competitive hiring tool and pesters the hell out me to join the pension and stock plans.
BTW, I’m pretty sure the last round of UAW negotiations decimated the wage structure too. I’m no big union fan, haven’t been in one for decades, but I’m even less of one for ignorant propaganda.
July 21st, 2010 at 11:58 pm
Not sure about the chargeout rate, but the article says autoworker gets $77.75 per hour:
“GM has calculated that a Canadian autoworker gets $77.75 an hour, compared with $47.50 an hour for workers at the Japanese plants in the U.S, the Globe and Mail reported Friday. Closing the gap is very important, a company spokesman told the paper.”
July 21st, 2010 at 11:54 pm
@Jimmy:
From the article:
“GM has calculated that a Canadian autoworker gets $77.75 an hour”
Two points:
1. That 77.75 is their “charge out rate” This is equivalent to what a contractor would get paid if directly (most have to go through an intermediary) – so it includes benifits, pension, union management and possibly HR. If I had to guess take home is probably only ~30/hr.
2. “GM calculated”; this is a company in distress
Similar to Steve Jobs throwing a few other phone companies under the bus in a recent press conference about the iPhone4.
July 21st, 2010 at 11:39 pm
@patriotz: as pointed out earlier, just because it’s not in the contract doesn’t mean you have the right to do something.
Simple analogy, your employment contract probably doesn’t have a clause saying you can only work a maximum number of hours per day or per week, or that the employer can prevent you from leaving the company premise until the job is finished. Does that mean come some project crunch time, your employer can demand that you work 24/7 in the office until the job is done and that you are not allowed to go home?
You might say ok then I exercise my right to quit. But if your right to quit on the spot isn’t in the contract then wouldn’t the employer refuse your resignation and sue you for economic loss for failing to work?
July 21st, 2010 at 11:34 pm
This article is dated 2008. Back then, GM claims that it was paying its workers $77.75 per hour in wages plus benefits (although the union disputes that number….even if it’s 10% lower, it’s still close to $70 per hour.) Not sure what the wages & benefits are now post GM’s bankruptcy.
http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/.....m-caw.html
GM wage comparison misses mark, CAW head says
July 21st, 2010 at 11:32 pm
@chip:
Dude, are you illiterate or something? Individual workers did not receive that much compensation. It is the total amount paid out to all currently employed and retired workers, divided by the number of currently employed workers. To say they are *making* $70/hour is to misunderstand (or to lie).
July 21st, 2010 at 11:29 pm
@jesse: This sounds awefully like the job of the inspection department at city government! Which also can do the job at a cheaper cost and easier way than having every buyer paying for a full time engineer inspecting the constructions by themselves. I’m sure there are engineering firm who would love this as they can make a lot more money this way. However total costwise, I think the inspection department is the best setup. Off course whether it works properly or not is another matter.
July 21st, 2010 at 11:06 pm
@chip:
No they’re not. Quit lying. There are people on this board who understand finance and you’re not going to BS them.
July 21st, 2010 at 11:03 pm
@vibe:
The first property I bought in Vancouver had a leaky roof. I had to fix it myself. There is no statutory condition in RE contracts that the property can’t leak. If the buyer wants redress, it has to be in the contract.
July 21st, 2010 at 10:57 pm
@oneangryslav2:
“…and handed the company to union workers making over $70 an hour
You’re either obtuse (which I doubt) or being exceedingly disingenuous. There is a clear substantive (and not only semantic) difference between the statement that you did make–in which the worker is the subject–and the statement you claim to have made–in which GM is the subject.”
Whoa, guy. Who is being obtuse? The union guys ARE making $70 an hour and GM is paying them $70 an hour. Whether it’s in the form of salary, health insurance, pension payouts or bushels of wheat is totally immaterial to the point that the govt DID hand the company over to workers who receive this amount in compensation.
You can twist yourself up into a confused knot over the real meaning of ‘pay’ or ‘make’ but those costs are real. GM workers ‘earn’ (those quote marks are for you) twice as much as the guys at Toyota but the govt still decided to hand them the company while telling the bondholders to go to hell.
(It’s this kind of crap that’s making banks and companies sit on their mountains of cash. There’s a storm of unease out there and one is going to start spending until the government wises up.)
July 21st, 2010 at 10:13 pm
@realpaul: “I’m a ‘Occams razor’ guy and assume that the ‘invisible hand’ will raise up”
I thought Occam’s Razor was that the BoC were being run by brood of reverse vampires.
Never change, realpaul, no matter what they try to slip into your soup.
July 21st, 2010 at 10:03 pm
Patriotz, the governments game plan is to turn the clock back by deleveraging all asset classes, including the cost of government ie: wages and benefits also RE and savings. Until then they will have to keep a lid on the market forces…..who will win, the market or the manipulators? I’m a ‘Occams razor’ guy and assume that the ‘invisible hand’ will raise up and slap the brittle untruth into the next dimension.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam‘s_razor
Behind the scenes:
“Roubini Global Economics submits that “Our core scenario is thus that once national balance sheets are repaired through a protracted and gradual deleveraging of household and public sectors (following the relatively rapid deleveraging of the financial sector, particularly in the United States), excessive deflation and inflation fears will [both] subside. There are certainly financial storm clouds to [still] worry about—not least because of sovereign debt concerns in the Eurozone.”
July 21st, 2010 at 9:49 pm
#221 Jimmy, I like where the article alludes to ‘savings’ in the ‘six figure range’. Bwahahahahahahahahahaha. Savings are discounts on established pricing. The RE market in the OK was never anything buy cheap money chewed up into smoke and blown up some fools ass. When the bottom is eventually established ( and it isn’t clear that its even close to a bottom by the look of the growing inventory and cratering prices) then you can bargain for a deal, right now its called ‘catching a falling knife’. Nortel was a screaming buy at $60 after it fell 50% and fools rushed in with their hair on fire. Nortel is worth zero today. Thats what can happen to bargain hunters in a falling market.
July 21st, 2010 at 9:43 pm
#216 P. what would be interesting is to find out how many billions the CDN governement is spending anually to keep the speculators( like Soros and myself) out of that market. Switzerland recently admitted to going through 14 billion so far to play the game. Switzerland has far deeper pockets than Canada so I have to assume that we will find out sooner than later what the true nature of our ‘bond’ is really worth. The international ‘stimulation game’ has run its course. Debt exceeds GDP in every western country, only the governments willingness to play fast and loose with public debt is keeping the facade shaking but upright. It is indeed an interesting call as to when our government can’t afford to buy its own paper. When that wall is hit, the change between government to private capital will be ugly. Thats not the bond market you hear talking, thats your own tax dollars standing on the seashore like Canute, pushing vainly back at the incoming tide. Over to you.
July 21st, 2010 at 9:32 pm
@Best place on meth:
Best place on meth Says:
July 21st, 2010 at 4:25 pm
Speaking of leaks, if you thought the Gulf oil spill was bad…
++++++++
I’m grateful the slideshow skipped the poor oily fella being scrubbed down buy people in zoot suits. One holding him down, another with his hands around the fellas beak, a third with a turkey baster hydrating and the last rescue worker with a soapy sponge.
July 21st, 2010 at 9:09 pm
@Jimmy:
Rich foreigners don’t have time now for Okanagan they buy a big time at the Costco, Superstore and Walmart. I buy 3 shirts my husbah buy 3 shirts.
July 21st, 2010 at 8:59 pm
patriotz, “Pre-sale buyers are entitled to whatever level of redress is given to them in a freely agreed upon contract, just like anyone else.”
I’m not talking about people getting upset about floor plans being changed. Do the contracts have a liability waiver in regards to leaking buildings? I doubt it. Either way, having a contract doesn’t mean you can break the law. If the government wants to ensure through building codes that all condos are built to a certain standard then the contracts have nothing to do with it. If the government wants to hold developers accountable for these issues then they can.
July 21st, 2010 at 8:18 pm
Where’s the rich foreigners to buy up the Okanagan?
http://www.news1130.com/news/l.....the-strain
Okanagan real estate market feeling the strain
Experts say buyers can enjoy significant discounts
July 21st, 2010 at 8:11 pm
Hey vreaa,
Great quote for you on Garth’s post tonight:
July 21st, 2010 at 8:09 pm
Current inventory anyone?
July 21st, 2010 at 7:15 pm
I came 12 months ago, I saw, I was disgusted, I got the hell out…End of story.
July 21st, 2010 at 7:12 pm
@chip:
Classic ranch meets medieval England – very nice. The stone bbq also doubles as a rack.
Meanwhile, the beekeepers have put up new photos.
Fabulous toilet, the tenant can pretend they’re on the red-eye to Montreal.
http://vancouver.en.craigslist.....61334.html
July 21st, 2010 at 7:02 pm
@realpaul:
The bond market disagrees with you. Have they wimped out? If you’re right and they’re wrong, you have the opportunity to become the next George Soros. It’s your move.
July 21st, 2010 at 6:59 pm
http://vancouver.en.craigslist.....51311.html
Yes, yes, but where do I hang my cat-o-nine tails and can the neighbours hear the screams?
July 21st, 2010 at 6:58 pm
@vibe:
Pre-sale buyers are entitled to whatever level of redress is given to them in a freely agreed upon contract, just like anyone else.
If people freely choose to sign contracts that let developers deliver just about anything they want, that’s their fault and their problem. Remember again that they have a week to get out of the contract no questions asked. They are already getting special treatment.
July 21st, 2010 at 6:34 pm
@ startaman #182,
Just curious but is a project engineer an “actual engineer”…are they governed the same way as say a mechanical or structural engineer would be…I am an engineer and if I fuck up and through negligence or oversight cause damages to property or life I can have my certification taken away, and/or be fined or even jailed if the damages are significant enough…
This may be a solution to the problem…if the “project engineer” is responsible for the outcome it will change the balance from “doing whatever the contractor wants or losing your career” to doing what is safe and correct to code or you stand to lose money, freedom, and your career….
just a thought
July 21st, 2010 at 5:28 pm
Realistic intrest rates in Brazil as rates there pass 10%
http://www.foxbusiness.com/sto.....is-points/
It seems that Canada has to grow a set when it comes to identifying the screaming price inflation in this country. Instead we just raise taxes and support higher pay and perks for the slovenly leaches on the government payroll to put off the inevitiable reckoning.
July 21st, 2010 at 5:19 pm
@paulb.:
Thanks, Paul. I know you spend enough of your spare time doing the stats for us but since you have an interest in the North Shore do you have any comments on what’s happening there? We’re moving back in November and I’m curious how the market looks.
July 21st, 2010 at 5:15 pm
New Listings 194
Price Changes 144
Sold Listings 104
July 21st, 2010 at 5:02 pm
Hey Rob, thought you said you would not be trolled again, and here you are replying to casanova.
That’s just pathetic.
“Business is actually pretty busy, but I am trying to make some changes. Blog traffic isn’t indicative of business, after all.”
We believe you, it’s just the other 10,000 realtors in Vancouver who are slow.
July 21st, 2010 at 4:39 pm
Please stop beating me. Thank you.
July 21st, 2010 at 4:34 pm
I’ll agree with that, as long as the lack of sympathy doesn’t lead to a lack of redress. Although, depending on the circumstances I personally would have sympathy for certain people even if they don’t deserve it.
July 21st, 2010 at 4:25 pm
Speaking of leaks, if you thought the Gulf oil spill was bad…
http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/.....10chinaoil
July 21st, 2010 at 4:21 pm
@DaMann: “how can you inspect what has not been built?”
1) Regular inspections and tours of the site with your own engineer.
2) Exit clauses in the contract in case there are code violations or obvious deficiencies in quality or specifications.
Put these in the God damn contract and budget for third party inspection expenses. Will developers sign a contract with such clauses? No bloody way. There are plenty of other fools who will sign the “standard” presale agreement. But that’s the type of thing you should be doing — and what many investors do for other types of construction — if you want close to zero risk in purchasing a property.
July 21st, 2010 at 4:16 pm
@VRENGD: “where there is a known risk, you are foolish not to protect yourself against it”
Indeed. I don’t think there is any doubt blame is on both sides. But if I CHOOSE to walk through the “Tunnel of Sharp Spinning Knives” without first donning plate mail armor, then cry when I get slashed, sorry. That the “Tunnel of Sharp Spinning Knives” is unscrupulous and evil does not in any way absolve my responsibility in the matter, seeing as it was an absolute choice. Me avoiding walking down the street to avoid being hit by a drunk driver is not always a practical choice but buying a condo most certainly is.
Go ahead and fight to bring dishonest developers to justice but until then I will protect myself and treat dishonest developers as a fact of life.
July 21st, 2010 at 4:07 pm
@Strataman: But… but… all engineers are professionals and a professional cares for nothing but upholding the ethical standards of their profession! This is shocking news!
July 21st, 2010 at 4:06 pm
@vibe:
The fact is you are buying a product that has not been built, how can you inspect what has not been built? Would you agree that someone who buys a condo site unseen, never has it inspected, then finds out it’s a leaker sort of deserve it. So if you buy a presale that has not been built it’s impossible to have inspected. So you are sort of setting yourself up for a fall. OK ok, I will meet you half way, no one deserves a leaker, but they also DESERVE no sympathy what so ever for buying a presale.
July 21st, 2010 at 3:43 pm
@Googles: I’m very familiar with the stretch of road you’re talking about. I count signs from David up to the top of the hill where you’re forced to turn left. Today’s count was 36 (including a couple of recent solds). It was the same story back in 2008 but the count then was often over 50. Obviously, it’s a bunch of rich Chinese folk, but does anyone else have any interesting details on what’s happening up there?