NYC Condos for 80% off
Apparently there’s a city called New York on the East coast of the US that some claim is ‘world class’. Please… Like they could hold a flame to our shops, restaurants and cultural events.
One thing they did have in common with us is some expensive real estate. Did have, because it appears to be getting cheaper. Units in a ‘historic’ upper west side condo conversion are selling for more than 80% off their original prices.
Sounds like they need Bob Rennie.
November 10th, 2010 at 6:04 pm 1
Its funny just saw an ad in the paper for New York styel apartments in Victoria. Can see new york style cuts in prices coming soon.
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November 10th, 2010 at 6:57 pm 2
They've never had the Olympics. I doubt *anything* happens there.
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November 10th, 2010 at 10:11 pm 3
No Rich Asians. Vancouver is closely tied with Asian money flows. No surprise that asset bubbles in HK and Shanghai are spilling over into Vancouver.
When is this bubble going to end?
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November 10th, 2010 at 11:37 pm 4
#
84
#
patriotz Says:
November 11th, 2010 at 4:52 am
@Archie Bunker:
See on the news Dianne Watts is touted as Campbell’s replacement.
BC has already had a former mayor of Surrey as premier.
Guess who?
=============================
I can't recall ……..but I bet he was FANTASTIC and did a great job for us while divesting Publically owned Real Estate.
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November 10th, 2010 at 11:43 pm 5
Re NYC
I guess that's why Donald Trump is doing TV shows instead of his normal gig of RE.
That logically implies Bob Rennie will have to have his own TV show too.
Any suggestions for Bob ?
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November 10th, 2010 at 11:55 pm 6
Alleged smuggler linked to estate with chemicals
http://www.bclocalnews.com/ric…..48963.html
An alleged smuggling tycoon currently battling to stay in Canada was a recent owner of the farm property on Gilbert Road where Mounties last week discovered a cache of chemical precursors believed to be destined for the manufacture of illegal drugs.
Lai Cheong Sing, also known as Lai Changxing, purchased the 1.5-acre Fraserwind estate in 2008, but RCMP Const. Michael McLaughlin, spokesperson for the federal RCMP, told The Richmond Review Lai isn’t currently facing any charges.
The federal government has been trying to deport Lai for the better part of a decade.
Lai is alleged to have been the brains behind a $10 billion smuggling operation involving cigarettes and motor vehicles in Xiamen, China, as well as allegations he was involved in bribery, fraud and tax evasion.
========================
See we don’t have people smart enough to pull off these capers.
we have to import them, legally or illegaly.
However,I’m sure it’s just an anomaly, surely this one simply slipped through the cracks and the system will try much harder next time.
( Barrrfff )
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November 11th, 2010 at 12:05 am 7
@Archie Bunker: Do you think someone as smart as Dianne Watts will want to be a sacrificial lamb going into the next election? The Liberals are in a state of chaos. She's young and can afford to wait for a few years instead of becoming captain of the RMS Titanic.
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November 11th, 2010 at 12:13 am 8
# 7 jesse
Don't youse recall history?
Any female that has attained the highest elected position in their given political jurisdiction has had a long and successful political career while at the helm.
Don't youse recall Rita Johnston and Kim Campbell ?
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November 11th, 2010 at 12:24 am 9
@NO – LYMPICS:
"Gig" about says it. The Donald has not been putting any of his own money into RE for a long time (he lost too much of it doing that) and in fact just charges developers for the use of his name, like sports stars do for hockey equipment, golf clubs, etc.
He's simply a professional celebrity.
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November 11th, 2010 at 12:27 am 10
Says here in the Province
Woods opens with two under at Australian Masters
Read more: http://www.theprovince.com/sports/Woods+opens+wit…
Two under…are we talking menage' a trois ?…I though he learned his lesson and was sticking to using his other clubs
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November 11th, 2010 at 12:39 am 11
Dianne Watts says she will decide next week on leadership run
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/brit…
Surrey Mayor Dianne Watts, pegged in polls as one of the few people who could save the embattled Liberal Party in British Columbia, will decide early next week whether to run to succeed departing Premier Gordon Campbell
====================================
jesse….
See…I guess that it's definitely not a no…very probably a maybe.
Politicians are ambitious…..she looks like the type that can and will move on…if and when the opportunity presents itself.
For her its now or never….she may not get another chance. Timing is everything and in politics a few weeks is an eternity.
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November 11th, 2010 at 12:46 am 12
I just got a flyer in the mail for "Yale Crossing" in Abbotsford. There are over 30 units left in a fairly small building. The flyer says that all units must be sold by the end of the year.
These units were initially priced at about $290k + GST in spring 2008. THey sat until later that year and some sold for $265+GST.
Now they are asking $210 including Net HST
From Old sales price to new asking price there is a 25% drop. Right here in the best place on earth.
I'm certainly curious to see what "must sell this year" means… If it is true, then I will certainly put in an offer on Dec 29th for 100k or something.
Another anecdotal point of reference. These places originally sold for $850 in 2006, went up to about 1 mill in 2008, and now are foreclosing and asking in the 400's.
http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?proper…
It looks like we need Rennie here.
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November 11th, 2010 at 12:47 am 13
@NO-LYMPICS:
"Lai Cheong Sing, also known as Lai Changxing, purchased the 1.5-acre Fraserwind estate in 2008, but RCMP Const. Michael McLaughlin, spokesperson for the federal RCMP, told The Richmond Review Lai isn’t currently facing any charges."
This is a guy who has had no visible income for ten years yet lives very well – well enough to buy a big chunk of property. You would think the police would be all over one of the world's most notorious criminals with this in mind … but this is Vancouver.
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November 11th, 2010 at 12:59 am 14
# 12 "A-Sharp" Accountant Says:
November 11th, 2010 at 8:46 am
I just got a flyer in the mail for “Yale Crossing” in Abbotsford. There are over 30 units left in a fairly small building. The flyer says that all units must be sold by the end of the year.
=================
Pass em along my name.
I have good track record in flogging overpriced white elephants.
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November 11th, 2010 at 1:04 am 15
# 13 Anonymous
This is a guy who has had no visible income for ten years yet lives very well – well enough to buy a big chunk of property.
===============================
Yeah but why do they pick on him? …his credentials should have allowed him to blend in with about 100,000 other ex-patriates comrades living in BC.
I think this reeks of discrimination !!!!
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November 11th, 2010 at 1:55 am 16
@Archie Bunker:
Let's all vote for Gregor so we can have bike lanes attached
to the Skytrain line.
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November 11th, 2010 at 1:57 am 17
On a recent trip to NYC I was told by retailers that business was down 50% across the city. The fact of the USD plunging has not brought in a mob and desperate shoppers or 'foriegn investors'. The comparably miniscule size of Vanshithole may have something to do with the number of examples used for comparison. After all Vanshit is a minor strip mall compared to NYC.
Deja voodoo in Britain shouts out the similarities to Canada's 'multi culti' mess, where jobs are created by the government specifically for immigrants only and qualifications for those jobs are lowered to fit a formulaic model instead of hiring on merit. Britian nows see's that denying British workers jobs while social worker nutz drove the agenda has created a nightmare of unemployment and poverty for the citizens. It reminds me of the current policy of the Federal Government against hiring 'white' persons for the same bizarre reasons.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1328722/I…
We see many of the same idiotic social engineering models exposed in Britian as the cause for the break down of society…yet we see the bureaucrats hell bent on following Britains socially engineered failure? If history is any example we 'll see exactly the same thing happen here…after all theres only so much money in the system and that the government can borrow…..when taxes hit 100% what will happen to our pleasent little 'immigrant ghetto' concept? I see big walls, barking dogs and facade burning flames. Since we have copied the European model to the letter and are now seeing those countries crash and burn does it not follow that the path we are on has been developed on a false premise and is doomed to fail?
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November 11th, 2010 at 2:21 am 18
I'm putting together some November numbers now. BTW, back stats all the way to 2003 can be found here.
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November 11th, 2010 at 2:28 am 19
November Projections for month totals
Days elapsed so far 8
Days remaining 13
Average Sales this month 119 sales
Average Listings this month 173 sample variance 49.53571429
Projected sell/list 68.8% sample std dev 7.038161286
SALES t-dist 2.364624252
Projected month end total 2499 +/- 216 Lower bound for new 1330.646111
95% Conf Interval lower bound 2283 upper bound for new 1763.353889
95% Conf Interval upper bound 2715
NEW LISTINGS listings
Projected month end total 3630 +/- 187 sample variance 36.94419643
95% Conf Interval lower bound 3444 sample std dev 6.078173774
95% Conf Interval upper bound 3817 t-dist 2.364624252
MONTHS OF INVENTORY lower bound for new 2060.531238
Inventory as of October 31st 14075 upper bound for new 2434.218762
MoI at this sales pace 5.63
Note: This is a simple linear projection of month end totals.
This provides the answer to the question
"What will month end totals be, if things continue
on the same pace we've seen so far this month?"
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November 11th, 2010 at 2:29 am 20
How do these Nov 2010 projections compare to past Novembers? Here is the answer:
November sell new list sell/list
2001 2614 2697 97%
2002 2555 2638 97%
2003 3018 2955 102%
2004 2486 3234 77%
2005 2938 3271 90%
2006 2358 3168 74%
2007 2883 3377 85%
2008 874 3022 29%
2009 3083 3653 84%
AVG 2534 3113 81%
2010** 2499 3630 69%
**projections
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November 11th, 2010 at 2:35 am 21
My thoughts:
we are in a seasonal pattern here. Listings normally fall off strongly in November / December–who would newly list their house over the holidays? Sell-lists are normally very high in Nov. Dec.
Then, in January, pent-up listings flood the market and sell-lists are very low.
So, in that context, notice that the 'high' sell-lists we have seen so far in November are actually the worst in 10 years–except for 2008, of course!
Looking more deeply, sales look to be just a hair below average. Listings, on the other hand, are on pace to be near the highest we have seen in 10 years for November. This reverses what we saw in October–super low sales *and* listings.
This is a flat market right now. Anyone who says otherwise isn't looking at the numbers objectively.
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November 11th, 2010 at 2:42 am 22
For all you post Baby Boomers:
Did ya know NYC came close to bankruptcy in the 1970's?
Recalling New York at the Brink of Bankruptcy
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=94…
How close was New York City to bankruptcy in 1975?
So close that the city's lawyers were in State Supreme Court filing a bankruptcy petition.
So close that police cars were mobilized to serve the papers on the banks.
So close that aides to Mayor Abraham D. Beame had written a statement announcing the default along with an emergency effort to save the city's dwindling cash for vital services like police and fire protection.
That close.
===========
etc. etc.
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November 11th, 2010 at 2:43 am 23
Here's a few questions for the bears – specifically VHB etc.
Obviously you would like to own a home at some time if the prices are right. Correct? (Otherwise you wouldn't watch the market year after year)
At what price point would do you actually buy?
VHB – what year did you start your blog?
If prices return to the level when VHB started his blog they would still be too high because that was the view then.
What this means is the bears are looking for a 60 – 70% reduction in prices to make it palatable to buy. Is that in any way realistic?
I think Mohican was sensible and has done well since he bought.
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November 11th, 2010 at 2:47 am 24
I'm thinking of goin to the Body Worlds exhibit:
I though I'd go and see how superduperbulltime and supraboy are doin.
I hear they are in the green room as understudies if one of the exhibits goes on strike.
(PS they are the exhibits with no balls and no brains.)
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November 11th, 2010 at 2:59 am 25
@NO – LYMPICS:
The TV show will star Rennie, Muir and Tsur and will be called "One and a half men".
You can do your own calculations.
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November 11th, 2010 at 3:12 am 26
@Ted,
Hindsight is 100%. Good for you for having 100% hindsight. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that what you are saying is "You were wrong. I'm smarter than you. Na Na Na Na Na Na!" Well, if that's what you're saying, then "OK. All right. Way to go, Ted. You rock."
But you aren't asking the relevant questions, which are (a) "Is NOW a good time to buy?" and (b) will prices in the future be such that those who "have done rather well" (say "rather" with an affected West Side accent) won't get burned.
To (a) the answer is "No". To (b) the answer is as yet unknown. You in particular don't know. My own opinion (merely that) is that those who bought in recent years will lose. Some will be happy with that, because (like Mohican) they made an informed choice based on life circumstances and were prepared to go with the consequences, whether good or bad. Others won't be so happy, having been duped into buying by fear and/or greed nurtured in them by people who stood to gain by nurturing fear/greed in these hapless souls. Were you one of these nurturers? I dunno, just asking. If you were, you would "do rather well" to examine your conscience and face the reality of who you are and what you've done. Even postmodernists were designed with a conscience, lol.
Regarding your remark "What this means is the bears are looking for a 60 – 70% reduction in prices to make it palatable to buy", this is pure rhetoric … which means that it is a cleverly crafted set of words that appears to make wonderful sense but which in reality lacks argumentative substance.
Remember, Ted, words are tools that can be used by fools, but at best they're only words. As cleverly arranged as the words in a sentence might be, they're no substitute for wisdom and understanding.
Somehow, the notion of "throwing good money after bad" popped into my mind, and also the idea of "sunk cost". I also have an image of an addicted gambler at the race track, betting ever-increasing amounts of money in order to recoup his losses. I can't put it all together right now, but my thought train somehow relates to the concept of "buying now" because one "shoulda bought yesterday". Woulda, coulda, shoulda. We can't live our lives that way. IMHO, today is a bad time to buy.
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November 11th, 2010 at 3:25 am 27
@ Ted
Can't speak for the rest but I started looking in 2007 and in the area I want to buy, prices haven't moved much at all (not Vancouver or Richmond).
Since 2007 I've saved over $150k. As long as price growth doesn't outpace my rate of savings I'm doing well.
If I had bought in 2007 it would have been with 5% down, as I was fresh out of school, so imo I'm better off having waited.
I'm going to buy something soon, were just waiting for the exact house we want to hit the market; probably by spring.
It’s tempting however to keep renting because if keep my current pace of savings, I'd have about $800K cash in 10 years, and there is no way I'd have $800k in equity after 10 years if I buy. My wife however, sees more value in family memories than a fat bank account and I agree.
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November 11th, 2010 at 3:26 am 28
#12 A Sharp Accountant.
Thanks for the info.
Another thing I noticed in the last RE flyer that showed up at the house.
This 0 down guy ran an ad.
http://www.yourmortgagesource.org/product-informa…
…and I thought there was no such thing as zero down in Canada anymore???
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November 11th, 2010 at 3:33 am 29
I definitely didn't say I was smarter than anyone! I've been reading these blogs for years and here is my story:
Bought in Calgary in early 2005, sold for an almost 100% gain 18 months later.
Moved to Vancouver and held on to our now large down payment and rented. Passed up 1000 square foot units for around 500K which now go for about 650K
Gave up and bought in early 2009 and now contracted to sell 100K higher (-35K of renos – low net but free accommodation at least!)
What I find frustrating here is all the bears speaking like they know the future even though they (and I) have been wrong for years.
I don't think I should buy right now but don't have the conviction all of the bears seem to have. Who knew the interest rates would drop to nothing? Who knew amortizations would be extended? Who knew qualifying would become so easy? Who knew Canadians would lever themselves up to the levels they have?
Could something else come out of left field to keep this game going? TD's new mortgages? Maybe…
There is no way investment real estate makes any sense right now but if you're looking at a primary residence I'm not so sure.
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November 11th, 2010 at 3:39 am 30
@Dan in Calgary: You are wrong! Now is a great time to buy!
Everyone needs a place to live.
They ain't making anymore land – especially in Vancouver.
Interest rates are the lowest in history.
If the price drops, you still have a place to live.
It's been going up forever.
Canada's different.
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November 11th, 2010 at 4:18 am 31
There's also a perception here that downtown Vancouver will be "ground zero" for the crash. That perception has been around for years – Yaletown Park will "flood the market" etc. etc. Right now the Condo tracker is being very un-compliant for this viewpoint.
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November 11th, 2010 at 4:26 am 32
@Anonymous: HAHA say goodbye to that hard earned 150K
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November 11th, 2010 at 4:53 am 33
@Anonymous: It’s tempting however to keep renting because if keep my current pace of savings, I’d have about $800K cash in 10 years, and there is no way I’d have $800k in equity after 10 years if I buy
So you have 150k now and by renting for the next 10 years you'll amass another 650k? Are you including an investment return here? I'm amazed that by renting you can save 65k in after-tax income every year. Your incomes must be pretty bloody good and you must live very frugally.
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November 11th, 2010 at 4:58 am 34
Anyone read this piece in the North Shore News?
http://www.nsnews.com/business/Realtors+earn+thei…
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November 11th, 2010 at 5:01 am 35
@ulsterman: I don't think it's that uncommon. My rent is $820 per month and I'll gross around $120,000 this year (hard to say exactly yet, as I'm a contractor). If my girlfriend and I end up moving in together, I'll save even more.
I have other friends in the same position. Unlike them though, I am not even thinking of buying anytime soon – why bother? The value just isn't there, and I am thick-skinned enough to deal with the social pariah status of being a mere renter.
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November 11th, 2010 at 5:03 am 36
Ted brings up a challenging point and many posters get pissy with him. He has a valid point. At what point would you see value. If prices where too bubbly for you in 06, how far will they fall from here to make you jump in. That's a good question and one i'd like to here people's answers to.
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November 11th, 2010 at 5:10 am 37
@cgh:
I'm jealous of your saving power. 120k income and 820 rent – i can only dream.
I have a currently non-working wife (self employed – no maternity pay) and 2 kids and 1500 rent. My world is very, very different from yours financially
Thankfully she will be back to work in Jan and i'm hoping that living on one income for 6 months has taught us to live more frugally. It would be great to save the majority of her income, but living on one 80k salary is difficult in the LM with kids. I do save about 10% for my retirement on those numbers, but after that there is nothing left at the end of each month. Roll on Jan.
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November 11th, 2010 at 5:29 am 38
@Ted:
I do not aspire to own in Vancouver again as I have no plans to live in the city long term. Elsewhere in BC perhaps, and as we know the bust is already well under way outside the Lower Mainland.
If I did want to buy I would wait for price/rent of about 150x, that would be the figure for a house with suite income, a house without a suite would be higher as the potential suite income would have to be factored into the price.
Any higher than that and you are throwing away money. If you are willing to do that go ahead, but I've found that having my name on a deed does not make life more enjoyable. I also think (along with a lot of other people) that Canada's support for retirees will be stressed in the future and I think throwing away money at a stage in your life where you don't have a great deal of time to earn it back is not very smart.
I'd rather keep my money in the stocks and bonds where I can get a reliable 6% yield.
As far as condos go, they have so many downsides that I can't understand why anyone would pay more than 100x rent. If you rent one you do have the risk of having to move but so what – they're all the same anyway.
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November 11th, 2010 at 5:31 am 39
@ulsterman: Prices would have to fall at least 50-70% for me to buy a house or condo in Vancouver. It is just too easy to rent a luxury condo for half the price of a mortgage, strata fees, taxes and other maintenance costs, even at these low mortgage rates.
Plus I don't need to deal with the costs and anticipation of building leaks, irritating strata councils and disrespectful neighbours. If I have any problems I just pick up and move. To me this lifestyle represents FREEDOM. I can always move with my nest egg to a nice place that is 1/7th the price of Vancouver if I ever feel the need to own a house and take on the headaches and added expenses associated with it.
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November 11th, 2010 at 5:47 am 40
@Ted: I'm a broken record, but I'll say it again – I've had, since 2005, a bigger place at a lower price in a better location than I could have had buying, with money left over for RRSP and RESP. I am more diversified than I would be if I owned my primary residence.
I have more room, which with two small kids, is no small thing.
I have a yard, which with two small kids, is no small thing.
And, I don't have to lose a second of sleep worrying I don't have enough set aside for the roof, or the furnace, or whatever else might go.
Seriously: I became a bear because owning would require an unholy amount of "lifestyle" and location sacrifice for the excitement of property taxes and strata meetings (because I wouldn't have been able to afford a SFH) and there was simply no way it was worth it. I live in a bigger house a lot closer to work than those of my group that own.
If housing rises forever, then they'll be house rich and I'll have investments and be more liquid and live closer to work and deal with less stress.
If I'm "wrong", dude, I don't want to be "right". I will buy, if and when the lifestyle sacrifice required isn't so heinous as to make my every day a sweet hell of 3 hour commutes (and the car/gas payments that go with), or conversely, 4 people in 750 square feet with no room for projects, etc.
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November 11th, 2010 at 5:47 am 41
@ ulsterman
My situation probably isn’t very common. Yes we live cheap. I drive a $2,500 car; we don't travel or eat out. We save about $4k per month on average, less currently but more when my wife is at work, so at 3% that works out to about $800K in 10yrs. We rent a home that our family owns so this helps a lot because our rent is very low, enough to cover taxes/services and maintenance. My mother in law lives 2 blocks away so she looks after the kids while we are at work, which is a huge savings.
It’s hard to think owning a home is a good idea in our situation, better to just wait ten years and pay cash, but happy wife happy life I guess.
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November 11th, 2010 at 5:48 am 42
Ted and ulsterman,
Like patriotz, Van. is not my area of interest.
I have a paid for house in Abbotsford and I'm 50 years old with a decent bit of cash put away.
I'm looking at rec. property in the Okanagan area.
Some specific deals are getting close for me.
In general though I think the area has a ways to drop and it's really just starting. We'll see how it looks in Feb. or March?
I should be able to buy something outright or maybe tap a small amount of HELOC to take care of the balance. I won't need a mortgage.
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November 11th, 2010 at 5:51 am 43
25 Best place on meth
Good one…
I hear Rennie is going to do a fudgepackers version of the Baltimore Ravens Ray Lewis Old Spice Ad.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnLN6DuHXPQ
" Hi I'm Bob Rennie
Men want me, Women want to be like me , and sheep are nervous around me "
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November 11th, 2010 at 5:57 am 44
@Ted:
Ted I will answser your questions from my point of view:
When it is cheaper than renting when all costs are factored in.
I think we need about a 50% reduction to make buying cheaper than renting if interest rates stay low. Is 60% to 70% realistic? Yes, you are caught in a bubble which clouds your vision. Look at the examples posted in this thread for Prime NYC at 80% off and Kelowna water front at 50% off. This is just the start of the decline in both places. A million dollar home in Vancouver is a piece of shit. At 60% to 70% off it will still be a POS and will still be priced higher than buying a POS anywhere else in the world. It would have to drop 85% to be priced at levels we see in Phoenix for example. So yes 60% to 70% is not just realistic but probable. 300k to 400K for a POS house in the less desirable part of Vancouver would still be expensive IMO but that is 60% to 70% off!
No, he was stupid if he bought. Unless money is no object and losing 50% plus of the house value would have little impact on your net worth then buying recently is anything but sensible.
Yes it is a credit bubble. Anyone who has studied history could see it unfolding. You never know exactly when the music will stop but you know it will as it always has. A credit bubble has to end.
There is a limited bag of tricks. They all do the same thing – they make credit cheaper and easier. Can it get cheaper – no. Can it get easier – maybe but we have seen it actually tighten over this past 6 months so the tide has tuned. Is it possible someone will introduce or invent a new trick for Canada's bubble to prolong it a couple of more years? Sure it is possible but since no other country in the world could come up with a new trick to prevent their real estate collapse you have to assume Canada is no different. Japan and the US have some pretty smart people and they couldn't prevent prices coming down significantly (and still falling even as new tricks are used). The world is in a credit contraction now. Ever heard the term "pushing on a string". Once it starts to contract it is impossible to reverse.
In any event, whether there is something that will prolong the bubble for a couple more years or not it still makes no sense to buy now. At some point it will end. And if it doesn't (impossible IMO) then renting is a better choice now and will remain a better choice. The fact people have sat out for 6 or more years shows how bright they actually are. No matter what the hype they simply go back and crunch the numbers. They continue to rent until it make sense to buy. It will not make sense to buy until it is cheaper. At some point it will be cheaper and it will make sense. If you disagree, and think it is "sensible" to buy now then go ahead and buy and we will see how it works out for you.
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November 11th, 2010 at 6:01 am 45
@Ted, guess I'm pretty crabby today.
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November 11th, 2010 at 6:31 am 46
"His first tutoring job was freshman year, when his advanced calculus professor asked him to help classmates struggling with the material. Over textbooks and calculators, Mr. Ding used the opportunity to practice his English and find commonalities with people who had never met someone from China.
At Hamilton, he is surrounded by wealth — some students, he says, fly to Manhattan on weekends in helicopters, party with Champagne instead of beer, and smoke $100 cigars. It’s a new experience for a man who gets his hair cut a few times a year because the $15 is a lot of money for his parents, who fret that they cannot afford to provide him with health insurance in the United States. But sending their child to live across the world is a worthy sacrifice, says his father, Ding Dapeng. “In China 25 years ago it was rare to even go to university, so for Yinghan to study in the U.S. is a real miracle.”
thought this was funny, about a "rich" i mean poor chinese student going to university in the states.
the rich people are in america, but the reason we are catering to the myth of the rich "asian" is because everyone knows 99.9% of americans dont want to live here.
and why would they?
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November 11th, 2010 at 6:47 am 47
@Anonymous:
"I drive a $2,500 car"
I bet insurance and maintenance costs you at least that again, each year.
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November 11th, 2010 at 6:49 am 48
@capital punishment:
China's GDP per capita is just under Turkmenistan, El-Salvador, or Algeria, depending on the source you use.
China is a very poor country, measured in GDP per capita they fall around 100th in the world.
The US (which, I'm not sure if the people touting 'rich chinese saving the market' are aware, is actually quite a bit closer to us than China) has seven times as many millionaires and Japan has four times as many.
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November 11th, 2010 at 6:54 am 49
@Renting:
"The fact people have sat out for 6 or more years shows how bright they actually are. "
Somebody who sat out for 6 years rather than getting in 6 years ago and getting out now isn't that bright.
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November 11th, 2010 at 6:57 am 50
@drachen
I think it goes to what has happened- people have accepted marketing as fact. Realtors and marketer have dangled that great unknowable, unquantifiable mass of laundered money just waiting off shore over our heads for quite awhile now.
The promise of someone saving us from our poor financial choices is very alluring.
I remember the houses advertised for rent during the olympics- houses out towards abbotsford, at the far end of the GVRD, people asking 20,000. As if that was anyones idea of a good time- paying 20,000 for the "privilage" of living in someones vancouver special for two weeks, to battle a twice daily commute to watch that ice dancing dork land the "canadian goose" in person.
And the people that paid 100 grand to watch the gold medal hockey game. You must just wake up every morning and want to put your nuts in a vice at the idea you were ever that stupid.
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November 11th, 2010 at 6:58 am 51
@Renting: Here is mohican's rationale when his family bought in 2008. He didn't overpay, really. He got a screaming deal from a developer and even then was willing and able to pay a premium to own. That act doesn't make him stupid IMO. As VHB stated, he was "going in with eyes open."
@Ted: "Who knew the interest rates would drop to nothing? Who knew amortizations would be extended? Who knew qualifying would become so easy? Who knew Canadians would lever themselves up to the levels they have?"
So let's fast forward, say, 10 years. Who knew the interest rates would increase again? Who knew amortizations would be reduced? Who knew qualifying would become so much more difficult? Who knew Canadians would have to de-lever themselves back to the long-term average?
Cuts both ways. Save your "you can't know the future, bears" shtick; it's old and misses the point. Bears can wait forever for price drops but luckily they won't have to.
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November 11th, 2010 at 7:20 am 52
cgh Says:
November 11th, 2010 at 1:01 pm
"…I am thick-skinned enough to deal with the social pariah status of being a mere renter."
I've never experienced any negativity about renting yet I read about it all the time on forums like this. I think this is an Internet thing as in real life it would be very surprising to have someone criticise you to your face for choosing not to buy a house.
I mean your living arrangements are hardly likely to come up in conversation with someone you hardly know and why would the people you do know care whether or not you own your own home?
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November 11th, 2010 at 7:21 am 53
@Anonymous: Yeah he should get one of those magic cars that don't require insurance or maintenance
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November 11th, 2010 at 7:36 am 54
Our earlier use of this policy approach had little effect on the amount of currency in circulation or on other broad measures of the money supply, such as bank deposits. Nor did it result in higher inflation. We have made all necessary preparations, and we are confident that we have the tools to unwind these policies at the appropriate time. The Fed is committed to both parts of its dual mandate and will take all measures necessary to keep inflation low and stable….
What the Fed did and why: supporting the recovery and sustaining price stability
Well….we'll hold you to that Mr. Bernanke….also one wonders why the head of the Fed has to write an article in a newspaper to defend his policies….I'll leave that answer in the hands of VCI readers……RTP
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November 11th, 2010 at 7:40 am 55
@Anonymous:
Even less bright are the people who bought 6 years ago and aren't getting out now, which is just about all of them.
Very very few people get in at the beginning of any bubble and get out at the top, and it's not a matter of being bright, but simply because its mathematically impossible for more to do so.
And you can't predict other people's stupidity, You can predict that a bubble must end, but you can't predict that one is coming.
BTW I didn't think Vancouver was significantly overvalued 6 years ago, nor did most of the other bears AFIAK.
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November 11th, 2010 at 7:41 am 56
@Anonymous:
That depends on what your objective was. If it was to buy and then flip a house a few years later at a profit then you are correct (assuming there was no other investment that did as well over the same period).
If your objective was to move into a place long term to live in at the lowest overall cost then renting was and still is the right choice. The vast majority of the people who bought over the past few years will not exit the market in time to realize the gains.
You could also stand by the high stakes roulette table in Vegas and call everyone who didn't bet on the number that just came up an idiot for not gambling. The fact is gambling does not pay off in the long run for most people. Investing in bubbles does not pay off in the long run for most people either. As with gambling very few will walk away with their gains.
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November 11th, 2010 at 7:49 am 57
Just revieved this via e-mail
New Immigration Laws: PLEASE read to the bottom or you will miss the message…
1 There will be no special bilingual programs in the schools.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
2. All ballots will be in this nation's language.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
3. All government business will be conducted in our language.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
4. Non-residents will NOT have the right to vote no matter how long they are here.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
5. Non-citizens will NEVER be able to hold political office
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
6. Foreigners will not be a burden to the taxpayers. No welfare, no food stamps,
no health care, or other government assistance programmes.
Any burden will be deported.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
7. Foreigners can invest in this country, but it must be an amount at least equal
to 40,000 times the daily minimum wage.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
8. If foreigners come here and buy land…. Options will be restricted.
Certain parcels including waterfront property are reserved for citizens
naturally born into this country.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
9.. Foreigners may have no protests; no demonstrations, no waving of a
foreign flag, no political organizing, no bad-mouthing our prime minister
or his policies. These will lead to imprisonment and deportation.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
10. If you do come to this country illegally, you will be actively hunted &,
when caught, sent to jail until your deportation can be arranged.
All assets will be taken from you.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Too strict?……
The above laws are the current immigration laws of the Muslim countries
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November 11th, 2010 at 7:50 am 58
Found in VANCOUVER'S Real Estate for Sale Craigslist:
http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/van/reb/2054482…
Gotta love it when the Real-turds from post crash areas place their properties in pre-crash areas hopping to reel in a Real Sucker
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November 11th, 2010 at 7:53 am 59
@paul: Actually, I find living arrangements come up all the time. At dinners with friends, some of whom are acquaintances (particularly their spouses), talk often turns to real estate, what's going on with whose house, etc., and when I eventually reveal I'm renting, it's assumed by some (not all) that there's "something wrong" in my life. Those were the words used by a very good friend's spouse not long ago, in fact. She has basically classified me as someone who "needs to get their life together".
I bought a vehicle over the summer, and the financial person at the dealership took my cheque (I paid cash) and said, "Bet that's the biggest cheque you've written in a while – well, except for the down-payment on your house!" I said I'd never made a down-payment before, and it went from there.
Maybe it's just our social circles, I don't know. I think that once you're 35+, a lot of people here believe that responsible adulthood includes home ownership, so if you don't own, you somehow don't make the cut.
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November 11th, 2010 at 7:54 am 60
@Renting
It's just a sucker punch from a troll.
The best way not to get pulled in, is to stay out of the "casino".
Take advantage of the cheap food though….
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November 11th, 2010 at 8:05 am 61
@Anonymous:
"My situation probably isn’t very common….."
In one way it is, like most people on this site, you greatly embellish your income. The rest, you're right, very uncommon; Most of us arn't coddled by family and in-laws.
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November 11th, 2010 at 8:28 am 62
@jesse:
I wasn't familiar with his circumstances, but maybe I should have said a very poor financial decision which to me is stupid. His rationale leaves a lot of things out like what he bought and how much he paid. I am not sure I believe his costs are lower than rent. From what I see he bought a 300Kish strata. Places like this do not rent for $1600 per month as he states. You can rent a whole house for that in Langley. And an all in cost of a 300Kish place would be higher than $1600 per month.
In August 2008 although things had started to cool off by no means were there any screaming deals out there. Not compared to late 2008 and early 2009. I would say since it was on the cusp of a decline his timing may have been the worst times to buy over this whole bubble. Especially considering interest rates are now much lower than in Aug 2008.
His basic argument was in order to avoid a move in 2 years he would buy now at a premium. Fair enough if that is worth a 100K plus to you. That is probably 2 years after tax salary for him. Hardly seems working for 2 years plus is worth saving a move. If he was really concerned about his kids wouldn't a SFH been better in a few years for the same price? It sounds like the typical "owners premium" BS argument to me. He caved into the pressure. Although he may never admit it he will likely regret it for the rest of his life. To be honest if someone is “going in with eyes open” that some how does not make it a smart move. To me that is the definition of stupid.
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November 11th, 2010 at 8:45 am 63
Holy Jehosaphat
I was at RONA….they want $7.50 ( plus tax ) for a bundle of firewood..last time I looked it was about $ 4 .
(….Not to mention the packed parking lot full of Mercedes and BMW in front of the Dollar Store )
At them prices, we should go back to our roots….hewers of wood…etc.
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November 11th, 2010 at 8:54 am 64
I see our blessed civil service/elected reps pulled another stunt, renewing Air Care for another 10 years, and the usual stunt of doing it at or near a public holiday when people are distracted
Apparently only 13 % of the vehicles fail….so here we have another useless gov't program ie cash grab(redundant) aka job saver while private unemployment rises.
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November 11th, 2010 at 9:21 am 65
While outsourcing are on constant level and Apple is made in China,Who on earth will open up head office in New York? Who on earth will love the work force around them? Shorter sulotion for New Yorkers is to outsource them selfs phisically now and the better way is
5 Vancouver BC
(¯`v´¯)
`•.¸.•´
¸.•´¸.•´¨) ¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.•´ (¸.•´¯`•–> WAVING FLAGS # 1 x o x o ♥ ☼ ♥
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November 11th, 2010 at 9:55 am 66
@Renting: "Although he may never admit it he will likely regret it for the rest of his life."
He paid less than $300K for a place, if you read the comments. He owned a previous place that he sold for a profit so in net, even if he overpays by, say, 40% (which is a stretch given the discount he received below market), he's out less than $100K. For some of us that's not a lot of $ in the grand scheme of things.
It's also not a fallacy to overpay as you allude; it's called a "consumer surplus" and is often a reason why completely rational people pay a premium from time to time.
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November 11th, 2010 at 9:57 am 67
#52 @paul: "I’ve never experienced any negativity about renting yet I read about it all the time on forums like this. I think this is an Internet thing…"
Wish it were true paul. Try being 30 with a young family. If you haven't got a million in cash or a million in debt (either way, as that's what gets you a SFH) then you're the worst parent ever.
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November 11th, 2010 at 10:25 am 68
@jesse:
1. If it is such a good decision, any reason you didn't buy one? After all what is a 100K. Why not buy one today. I am sure an eager real estate agent can find you a similar deal.
2. Just curious how you determined he paid below market? Because he said so? He got sucked into a sales pitch and the developer told him it was "below market". The price he paid is market. If the developer could have sold it for more he would have. Obviously he couldn't. This how a market price is determined – by what it sold for on the open market. He paid market at close to the peak of the market.
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November 11th, 2010 at 10:35 am 69
@ rp1
My wife mentioned to another mom at our kid’s preschool that we rent a house nearby and the other mother responded like my wife had cancer, with a tone of pity.
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November 11th, 2010 at 10:38 am 70
If he invested the 100K over 30 years at 6% he has an extra 600K for retirement.
I know in the grand scheme of things not much. I am sure a guy living in a Langley condo with a family working at a bank is so loaded an extra 600K at retirement would be chump change.
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November 11th, 2010 at 10:43 am 71
So…all the 'winners' are buying. And the Food Bank reports that 40% of their 'clients' are "young families with children". Now……if these 'homeowners' are so deep into the mortgage that they can't make ends meet at the end of the month and end up in line at the Food Bank for groceries…then pray tell…"Where is this so called……ownership premium"?
When I had kids at home and they had friends over I often heard some of them exclaim how they'd been eating 'soup' every day or macaroni. These were kids whose parents dropped them off in new cars and dressed nicely…..but the kids marvelled at a decent meal that wasn't recooked leftovers from the never ending soup pot. I know for a fact that a lot of 'owners' don't have a pot to piss in. Are these the same owners that get dressed down and go to the Food Bank nad collect a box or two of handouts?
The ghouls representing the Mortgage Brokers told us recently that the average CDN had another $300 bucks a month to pay for a mortgage if rates go up. I don't think they were calculating having to feed the kids. If you're down to your last $300 bucks at the end of the month….you're a fucking idiot when it comes to personal finance.
Lets not forget, on this Rememberance day that this country's soldiers fought for our freedom…..not freedom for the unions and mortgage brokers to rape away the future of the contry's future.
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November 11th, 2010 at 10:47 am 72
I have no anecdotal evidence to back this up, but it just feels different out there. I am meeting a lot of people who think the market is overpriced. Recently I met a person who sold his house made a huge amount and said 'I won the lottery". I am taking my money and renting maybe for the rest of my life. This was refreshing to hear.
I know the sales and prices don't really back this up but it appears to me that the winds are changing.
Anyone share the same thoughts or see the opposite?
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November 11th, 2010 at 10:51 am 73
@Anonymous:
Your wife likely has low self esteem and thinks everyone pity's her when they don't.
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November 11th, 2010 at 11:00 am 74
@ Renting
WTF's with your comment, just explaining how the woman responded; For the record we thought it was funny.
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November 11th, 2010 at 11:16 am 75
@Anonymous:
Sounds like a made up troll story to me. Try posting with a name and you might have more credibility.
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November 11th, 2010 at 11:18 am 76
3 hour line ups at the border today, full of giddy Canadians going shopping with their at-par dollars. This is how tens of thousands of us mark Remembrance Day.
I'm sure it's what our grandfathers and great grandfathers had in mind when they were fighting on the beaches and in the trenches.
The freedom to idle ones car at a border crossing for 3 hours to go buy jeans and milk in another country.
I'm so fucking proud to be a Vancouverite, so much so that I can't even fully describe just how proud.
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November 11th, 2010 at 11:25 am 77
@McLovin: What do you mean sales and prices don't back this up? Its not a free fall, but we have had a pretty rotten last 4 months of sales. It has become obvious this is not going to be a 2008 style crash. This is a real "crash" and its going to take a while, a long while.
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November 11th, 2010 at 11:26 am 78
76 – indeed. Fucking pathetic.
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November 11th, 2010 at 11:27 am 79
@ Renting
The post was me…it’s just the funny truth. Some of the mom's I've met appear really high maintenance. I'd hate to be married to them.
As for the log in, I can never remember how to spell my stupid user name which is why I don't often log it.
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November 11th, 2010 at 11:27 am 80
@midnite_toker:
"Yeah he should get one of those magic cars that don’t require insurance or maintenance "
Was just pointing out that a cheap car might not be that economical when it comes down to it.
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November 11th, 2010 at 12:14 pm 81
Property prices and sales expected to fall in Canada in 2011
http://www.propertywire.com/news/north-america/ca…
Rental revenue is flat
http://www.calgaryherald.com/business/Boardwalk+R…
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November 11th, 2010 at 12:28 pm 82
@Renting: "If it is such a good decision, any reason you didn’t buy one?"
I don't live in Fort Langley. What makes you think I rent or even want to invest in property?
"Just curious how you determined he paid below market?"
Because he paid less than those who paid presale prices a few years ago. It was the last unit in the complex and the developer was eating marketing costs and other expenses with that last unit on the books. It was, for whatever reason, worth a discount to "clear the books."
I don't disagree with you that overpaying will in net will leave someone with less capital in the future. For whatever reason some people's personal situations warrant them willing to pay a premium for certain products at certain times. I agree with you that from a strict value investment point of view investing in property any time in the past decade — even at a small discount vis a vis the market trough in 2008-09 — is not a wise move. But in many specific situations it's not always about maximizing future capital.
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November 11th, 2010 at 1:04 pm 83
When exactly did getting screwed by over-charging Canadian retailers become an act of patriotism?
More Canadians should be shopping in the US, not less. That's the only way the price-gouging is going to stop.
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November 11th, 2010 at 1:34 pm 84
@Kim Jong-il buy 3:
Fair enough if it happened. Although I have seen people offer good intentioned advice to renters I have never seen someone get any type of pity or disrespect. If someone was to show my wife that disrespect I would simply give her some advice on how to reply. For example:
Oh do you own? When did you buy? Oh geese right at the peak of the bubble. You must be worried? No. Well then your husband must have a really good high paying job. Oh that is all he does, so sorry to hear that. We will keep our fingers crossed for you that things work out. I mean I am sure what happened in the US will not happen here with the price collapse. And if interest rates do go up as everyone predicts you can get always get a second job on weekends. I can watch the kids for you. I don't have to work.
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November 11th, 2010 at 1:51 pm 85
@Yalie:
You missed the point completely.
But I'm sure all those shoppers sported a poppy over the last week to show their respect for the soldiers because it doesn't take any thought or reflection on their part, it's easy to stick one on their lapels and voila, they've done their duty.
After that, it's a bonus day off to go bargain hunting.
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November 11th, 2010 at 1:56 pm 86
There has been lots of talk about province vs. province, so I went to the Statistics Canada page and looked up these stats for 2006:
(B.C.; Ontario; Alberta; Quebec)
Interprovincial in-migrants vs. Interprovincial out-migrants
55,860/44,050; 56,835/75,380; 86,995/46,485; 23,080/30,375
(Vancouver; Toronto; Calgary; Montreal)
External in-migrants (migrants from abroad)
47,710; 92,850; 16,405; 39,890
The conclusions that I can draw are that within Canada, B.C. and Alberta seem quite popular, whereas Ontario and Quebec, less so.
Toronto is by-far the most popular destination for immigrants from abroad, followed by Vancouver and Montreal… with Calgary waaay behind.
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November 11th, 2010 at 2:02 pm 87
BPOM – fair enough. I agree that most people have little appreciation for the sacrifices that were made by others on their behalf. Same goes for those who think we should abandon our military since we live in "peaceful times", not realizing that the presence of an armed force is what keeps us generally at peace in the first place.
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November 11th, 2010 at 2:11 pm 88
The thing with Vancouver is that you can never underestimate the pool of morons who will ante up and buy a house. I'm completely on board for the houses are overvalued thing in Van but it just seems that there is always another idiot who is looking to get in the game. I dunno when this will run out but it will but it could be alot longer than people hope for here…
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November 11th, 2010 at 2:15 pm 89
So if Millennium discounts the OV 10% over what the presale purchases paid a few years ago they are being sold at below market value? Only a realtor could make such a silly statement. I think you know better. If not Google "market value".
The sales center realtor could not have put it better himself. That is just a sales pitch.
Again if it was priced at market value it would have sold when the sales center was open. From what you are saying the sales center was open the day he bought it. It was clearly priced above market value because it did not sell up to that point. In order to sell it they reduced it to market value. They could have easily closed the sales center and put it on the mls at no cost. Most presales close the sales center with several units left. There is no rule to keep it open until the last unit sells.
Maybe Mohican saved a few bucks over the previous sales but he paid market value or really close to it. Anything he saved was more than offset by the commissions he paid to sell his house and then he paid taxes on the new purchase. Plus he moved two times over the year which according to him is why he bought to avoid moving. It just seems stupid to sell a house to replace it with a brand new condo (unless you prefer a condo which I don't think was the case). A brand new condo will depreciate much faster. And a condo in Langley is just a poor investment even without a bubble. He would have been better off to stay put in the house he had in the first place. Sounds like a guy who has no clue on financial planning to me. Sorry, I am sure he is a nice guy but he clearly fxcked up big time with his real estate. And on top of it all while running his blog telling people why not to buy real estate all the while he is looking and then buying a condo.
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November 11th, 2010 at 2:55 pm 90
@ Renter
Lol, that’s more my style but my wife never seems to have the wits at the time to pull it off at the time. Lately I just let them talk, I find the more they say the dumber they sound.
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November 11th, 2010 at 3:00 pm 91
Anyone seen this on msn? I think they've run out of ideas
"Looky-loos: How to tell if you have a real estate obsession"
http://money.ca.msn.com/banking/homebuyersguide/g…
"You arrive reeking of marijuana.
Especially if it's an open house in a "transition neighbourhood," according to a realtor who'd rather remain anonymous. This phenomenon is particularly apparent in Vancouver, where the laid-back looky-loo might smoke a "fat one" before heading out for a leisurely day of open housing."
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November 11th, 2010 at 3:06 pm 92
@Renting: "So if Millennium discounts the OV 10% over what the presale purchases paid a few years ago they are being sold at below market value?"
Of course market value based on sales price. There were very few sales in 2008 so "market value" isn't meaningful until he buys. From that strict definition anyone buying pays market value. However, he stated he paid significantly less than his neighbour for a similar unit. But that is in the end extraneous: the circumstances why the seller sold are interesting but, according to his post, would not have affected his decision to buy. The major consideration was his value analysis — and if you read the comments I thought his analysis was a bit optimistic from a strict investment point of view — but I'm inferring he used optimistic analysis because he had a propensity to own. From your POV, and from a strict investment POV, the numbers don't work. But he has a consumer surplus and that means he can rationally overpay.
"The sales center realtor could not have put it better himself."
I don't understand why you're arguing that this person made a bad move by buying. You don't know the situation, you don't know what particular value he puts on owning at that specific time in his life. We agree that from a strict investment point of view he is overpaying. But he did the maths and put a fungible value on owning at a specific point in time that is different from others' value. That means, yes, he pays more than if he rents and waits 5-10 years for prices to fall. It does not mean he made the "wrong" decision. Maybe it is for you.
"It just seems stupid to sell a house to replace it with a brand new condo"
Are you sure he bought a condo? I don't think he did.
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November 11th, 2010 at 3:14 pm 93
@Renting: Here is a quote from mohican himself:
Do your research properly before spouting off about how "fxcked" up he is.
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November 11th, 2010 at 5:12 pm 94
#80 @Anonymous: "Was just pointing out that a cheap car might not be that economical when it comes down to it."
So true. I drove a $2000 car for 6 years. It was actually a pretty good car. Saved me lots of money compared to the parade of beaters I had before. When it finally died I had money saved for a much newer car. The new car is nice and even cheaper to run, but on the next car I get I want missiles.
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November 11th, 2010 at 5:22 pm 95
@rp1: They don't understand how the majority acts and thinks. They're part of the herd. They move with it. There is no conscious decision to do so. It's fine to join them when the herd is grazing, but once it begins to stampede, you need to scoot to the side when the cliff is in sight.
The money is not in running with the herd. The money is in raising your head up, and looking at the big picture to see where the momentum's going, then getting there first. The herd is right, until it isn't. Everyone's an investment genius during the boom, until the boom ends. Then they're running off the cliff with the rest of the genius herd.
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November 11th, 2010 at 8:38 pm 96
ulsterman:
"Stunt" is exactly right. The bubble in China is entirely due to local buyers and governments, and the bubble in Vancouver is also entirely due to local buyers and governments.
China is simply exploiting xenophobia to divert blame from the real culprits. As is Australia.
Any real and effective measures to end the bubble here would have to target both offshore and local buyers. And they're not going to happen, so don't hold your breath.
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November 12th, 2010 at 12:43 am 97
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/china-reportedly-limiting-foreign-property-buys-2010-11-12
LOS ANGELES (MarketWatch) — China is setting new rules that prohibit foreign companies from buying property there, other than offices for their own use, according to reports of a Chinese media account Friday. The rules will also limit foreigners living in China to the purchase of one residential unit for their own use, reports cited the state-controlled Securities Times as saying. The news was partly blamed for a sharp sell-off in Chinese stocks Friday, with the Shanghai Composite (CN:SHCOMP 2,985, -162.31, -5.16%) down 3.6% in early afternoon trading
Can you imagine if Canada pulled this stunt and limited Chinese buyers to one Vancouver property each?
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November 12th, 2010 at 1:00 am 98
#76 @Best place on meth: “3 hour line ups at the border today”
I saw that. Are people crazy or what? I think they all just want to feel they’re a part of something, it doesn’t matter how stupid it is. I’ve gained a great appreciation for the RE bull case. They were right, year after year, I think because they understood how the majority acts and thinks. And in a market, that’s everything. At least until the majority is broke
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