Friday Free-for-all

its Friday! Time for our regular end of the week open topic discussion thread.

-TD predicts house price drops across Canada
-BNN interview on the TD report
-BC Population growth keeps dropping
-Is renting every better than buying?
-Metro Vancouver fees to increase 44% over next 5 years
-Benjamin Tal: Offshore buyers underestimated
-Councilors: Landlords should be in it for capital appreciation
-Two new high-rises planned for City Centre
-Canadians cutting personal debt growth
-Another 20% drop for US housing?
-American consumers improve their debt rating

So what are you seeing out there? Post your news links, thoughts and anectdotes here and have an excellent weekend!

132 Responses to “Friday Free-for-all”

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    space889 Says:
    1

    20 homes in Vancouver for the average $800K price
    http://www.vancouversun.com/business/average+home

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    @space889:

    Odd that the list didn't include any condos, just east side tear downs.

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    YLTN @ Work Says:
    3

    This is so typical of getting caught up in the "must buy a house craze":

    http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/nvn/apa/2484308

    Rent the upper two floors of this home while the owner lives in the basement. Seriously, you obviously cannot afford a home an will be destitute if rates go up and you can't find a renter, besides, who wants to live in a place with their landlord downstairs, talk about zero privacy!

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    FiveNeatGuys Says:
    4

    @YLTN @ Work: Many years ago I rented a house with a couple of roommates and the owners lived in the basement suite with their toddler. Needless to say there was tension, we would occasionally drink and party which would keep them awake and their kid would wake us up early.

    They ended up getting a divorce and the mom and kid moved out leaving the husband there- they were so strapped for cash they tried to hold our damage deposit based on wear and tear to the floors. We ended up taking it to arbitration and getting the damage deposit back, but I saw first hand the sad damage that getting in over your head can lead some families to.

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    gordholio Says:
    5

    space889: "20 PUTRID Homes for the Average $800K Price". Seriously, whether intentional or not, this is a rather damning pictorial, isn't it? "You too can be a pauper for the rest of your years by throwing every spare cent you'll ever have into this rotting hellhole in the middle of dumpsville! Enjoy Vancouver summer downpours while building the machinery necessary to prop up the second story! Bathe in the glow of Vancouver evenings while sitting on your front lawn, shotgun at the ready to thwart would-be looters! Buy now or be priced out FOREVER!!!"

    YLTN: "Buy this horrendous deathtrap NOW for a mere million dollars! Live in the subterranean basement suite while leasing the top two floors to a lowly renter! Earplugs optional! Opportunity awaits! Won't last long! Buy now or be priced out FOREVER!!" (Cue Satanic cackle.)

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    "The main source of profitability in the real estate market," said Coun. Guy Heywood, "is the line not shown in your pro forma, which is capital appreciation rather than income. This kind of performance is not untypical of real estate companies who embarked on a buy-and-hold strategy."

    Oh wow. So eat shitty returns for a couple of decades, then flip to another operator or for redevelopment? No wonder hardly anyone is building purpose-built rentals, when costs are so high and market rents so low, even when obviously they can be set at any number. Much more profitable to sell condos. But sad to see someone trying to build a business providing a needed service, apparently unable to make the numbers work.

    On another note, I see the former Pallisades hotel is well under way to becoming rentals. The prices floated seemed to be a bit on the high side to me, but I have not seen any of the units or amenities. The owners have sunk money into rehabilitating the buildings, I wonder if they are counting on the buy-and-hold capital appreciation strategy.

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    Patiently Waiting Says:
    7

    @space889: If you don't have at least two 8s in the price of your home, you are racist.

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    patriotz patriotz Says:
    8

    @Devore:

    “The main source of profitability in the real estate market,” said Coun. Guy Heywood, “is the line not shown in your pro forma, which is capital appreciation rather than income."

    This is completely false. The only source of profitability in any capital market is income. Capital gains come to the seller at the expense of the buyer, so the net to the whole market is zero.

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    @patriotz: The effect is that ultimately the capital appreciation cannot be sustained, and asset prices crash back in line with fundamentals, with someone (the greatest fools) holding the bag and absorbing those losses.

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    space889 Says:
    10

    @YLTN @ Work: uhm lots of people live with their landlord upstairs. Personally I would prefer to be above my lord than under him/her. :)

    Also from watching Income Properties on HGTV, the issue of noise separation is mentioned a lot and the cost of installion doesn't seem to be that high or hard.

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    space889 Says:
    11

    @N: I think it's implied that you can still get a house in Vancouver for $800K. I don't know all the streets the houses are located on but about half of them looks livable from the pictures.

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    Patiently Waiting Says:
    12

    @space889: A landlord who can't afford to live in the top floor, didn't put it in sound installation. Its an old house too, with a basement intended for potatoes not people.

    I'd live above the landlord too, and I'd fight like hell any attempt to evict me due to noise. Of course, he'd tried find another official reason, but I bet he'll attempt evictions against anyone who dares walk across the creaky floors at night.

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    space889 Says:
    13

    @Devore: Is this a project where there is mixed market rental units and condos? Are the rental units in a separate strata or same strata? I'm assuming there are more than 27 units in the project, otherwise the city fees stated would be over $160K per unit! That's pretty steep.

    Also, why are the units being required to hook up to the city's heating utility? How is that any more efficient than central heating in the building or electric baseboard heating in each unit??

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    Yessir..

    Go retro…

    Looks like the gang bangers are back in business

    http://www.richmond-news.com/survived+Richmond+sh

    http://www.bclocalnews.com/richmond_southdelta/ri

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    Devore Says:
    15

    @space889: I don't know the details of the project, and there is probably lots of behind the scenes politics. The major point of contention seems to be the hook up to the specified utility, the costs of which seem excessive. Maybe Dave will come out of the woodwork and enlighten us.

    And the developer is right, they will not be able to pass those costs onto renters, although they would be able to pass them onto strata unit buyers (because it always goes up). As a renter, you flip the switch and light comes on, turn on the tap and hot water comes out, click the thermostat and it gets warmer. You don't care what the utility costs are. SOME people will pay a LITTLE bit more for, say, "green" energy, but in general you can't just go and charge a premium for the same thing no one else is charging for.

    Also see what is going on in the Olympic Village with "higher than expected" utility costs. If the operator cannot bring them into like (assuming it is not just a billing issue), then rents will need to be discounted. People are already paying a premium for the cachet of living there, they're not gonna pay another hundred just for the utilities, which are, for the end user, the same as utilities everywhere else.

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    Anonymous Says:
    16

    @Patiently Waiting: "but I bet he’ll attempt evictions against anyone who dares walk across the creaky floors at night."

    Not in my experience. I've lived in houses with the owner in another suite before and unless they're brand new to it the usually just shut up and put up with it.

    You can't rent out part of your house and not expect to hear the other people. Most of them realize that they're lucky to have a somewhat decent tenant anyways.

    Beggars can't be choosers and if you can't afford your housing costs without a tenant you have to put up with the noise, extra maintenance cost, complaints from neighbors over parking, etc.

    Grin and bear it :D

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    Patiently Waiting Says:
    17

    New Westminster shuts down Third World Housing Exhibit

    http://www.bclocalnews.com/greater_vancouver/neww

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    Victoria Says:
    18

    please read this…

    http://thetyee.ca/Mediacheck/2011/07/11/KaiNagata

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    YLTN @ Work Says:
    19

    I'm suprised that councillor Guy doesn't get how purpose built rentals work financially, the guy has the education:

    http://www.guyheywood.ca/about-me.html

    He must be caught up with speculation fever.

    As for the whole "mortgage helper" suite, does this happen much in other cities or is it's dominance here a Vancouver specialty (and an indication that prices are just too high if you can only afford to buy with a tenant).

    I lived under a landlord once and have to say unless it is the only way you can make things work financially, keep away. You can sound insulate all you want but that amateur landlord will always be watching for you, waiting for you to damage their precious investment.

    IMO, which I'm sure many disagree, if you need to have a tenant to buy a house, go buy an apartment for less and save up for that house.

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    900kCrackHouse Says:
    20

    Ladies and gentleman. The reason why the western world is completely screwed:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by

    Look at Ireland, they might as well just give up now! Whats the point of even trying to pay back their debt.

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    space889 Says:
    21

    @Devore: Yes, that's right, heating and water are generally included while gas or electricity is extra. Though I do know buildings that turn off heat until it's like Nov or it gets really cold.

    I find the fact that they are required to hook up to a specific heating utility extremely odd and I bet you are right, lots of behind the scene politics and someone is definitely planning on getting rich off it.

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    941.3kCrackHouse Says:
    22

    Why don't they just start building new buildings using 8's for floor numbers. 8,18,28,38,48,58,68

    oh Wait, we got to skip floor 48… that has a 4. And 5 and 6 and 7 aren't that lucky either. 7 might be a little ghostly. Brings back memories of nearby hospices.

    Ok, lets try

    8,88,888,8888,88888,8888888,888888888…..

    That'll negate the effect of any hospices being built next door.

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    space889 Says:
    23

    @YLTN @ Work: I think it's more of a Canada thing as there seem to be a lot of basement suite in Toronto as well, at least based on watching Income Properties and other similar shows. However in Income Properties case, a lot of the times the basement rental income would cover like 50% to 75%+ to occassionally 100% of those people's mortgage payments!!! I seriously doubt something like that is feasible in Vancouver as a rule of thumb.

    As for as I know, US it's more of whole house rental or rooming housing type of arrangement. Very few people would consider the idea of renting out basement or live in one. But I'm sure places like New York would be different from most of US.

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    Got a friend who's getting married. She and her soon-to-be husband were renting in east Van before and they talked about how rent was reasonable and houses were too costly to buy. But now that they are getting married, suddenly "buying a house" is a given.

    He said he prefers a house over a condo because for the extra he pays, he can get a tenant that helps with 1/3 of the mortgage. He hopes the interest rate doesn't go up too soon. He wants to buy in east Van.

    It's sad and telling of the times and city we live in. No one questions whether why we should already count on being a landlord by buying a house. Why should the interest rate stay low for a long time? Why should crappy houses cost $1 million? Why did this crappy house cost less than half that, just a decade ago?

    No, they are not rich. They are not foreigners. Seriously, lots of (local) people buy houses around me, and they all say foreigners are making houses unaffordable. They do not see the irony in this. I did not even try to persuade them to do research. I am mentally exhausted from trying to deter people from taking on a pile of debt on an asset sitting on top of a cliff.

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    space889 Says:
    25

    @Patiently Waiting: Holy shit!!! That's just wow…I'm speechless after reading that….I feel really sad for the tenants who had lived there if they had no other choice. Seriously though I think we need probably stiffer punishment for people like this besides just warnings and compliances. This guy obviously has no regard for people's safety.

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    Best place on meth Says:
    26

    @900kCrackHouse:

    Looks like all of Western Europe is screwed then.

    How ironic that Iceland is in the best shape with 35% debt-to-GDP after telling the bankers to fuck off and defaulting.

    Next best shape is Italy at 108%.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    YLTN @ Work Says:
    27

    Does anyone else have any anecdotal evidence as to the prevelance of celler dwellers in other cities besides Vancouver?

    When I put the search "Basement Suite" into Vancouver Craigslist with a limit of $1000 I get 48 hits from today alone. When I put the same search into Seattle Craigslist I get 2 from July 9th (the two from yesterday are for a whole house with an unfinished "basement" and master "suite"). For Toronto, I got 17 for all of July of which only 4 were actually for basement suites.

    I'm starting to think it is a Vancouver phenom.

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    @alx: "No one questions whether why we should already count on being a landlord by buying a house."

    It's like applying for a job with the employer stating you need to provide your own car and supply your own tools to perform regular duties. Not everyone's into that; I'm sure more than a few people take a look at the Vancouver "job description" requirements to be a part-time amateur landlord and move on to the next city, or simply rent.

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    patriotz patriotz Says:
    29

    @Best place on meth:

    Iceland did not default on its (i.e. the state's) obligations, it simply refused to assume the banks' obligations.

    Guaranteeing the banks' obligations is the reason why Ireland is in such a mess now. On the other hand Greece is in trouble due to its own borrowing – ironically the Greek banking system has been relatively conservative.

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    Euro - PIGS Says:
    30

    Meth man

    sounds good

    Portugal sez IMF F*CK OFF or no more Nando's chicken

    Italy sez IMF F*CK OFF or no more pasta

    Greece say IMF F*CK OFF or no more olive oil

    Spain sez IMF F*CK OFF or no more bullfighting in tight pants

    Thanks that felt good…mucho gracias..

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    patriotz patriotz Says:
    31

    @space889:

    But I’m sure places like New York would be different from most of US.

    NYC has the smallest proportion of SFH out of total dwellings of any US city, so there's little economic rationale for basement suites.

    Basement suites are really the market saying that not enough of the city is zoned for multi-unit dwellings.

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    @alx:

    I've been looking at the Victoria market lately as we're moving there for my son's school. It's been sliding for a few months now and you can see flippers scrambling down the price ladder. The desperation is beginning.

    When I read about your friends, I think about the thousands of newbie buyers coming in at the top who will have a very painful ride down. It's going to be very sad.

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    941.3kCrackHouse Says:
    33

    I've seen some people asking for ridiculous amounts of money recently for some of their bedroom basement suites in North Burnaby.

    It be a pretty damn good suite if you're going to ask for $1300 to live in your basement.

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    Landlord wannabee ad Says:
    34

    Maybe we should swap notes.

    Best odds:

    Single women employed (experience…no problems very neat)

    Single women employed with kids( experience ….no problems mother worked F/T and was doing Masters degree)

    Young couple with kid….and no steady employment

    ( experience…trouble….attitude…a bit psycho…. but knew the Residential Tenancy Act….Got rid of asshole by shutting of utilities…..ended up losing $1000 in rent)

    Single father with kid ( good at start….moved out….left a shit load to clean up….stink still remains )

    Lesson…be careful….charge less and get better tenants.

    Majority are good tenants…but be careful..and have thick skin.

    If they start jerking you around….make their lives uncomfortable….the scammers know they can drag it out a couple of months or more of no rent….

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    I vastly prefer having the landlord above me rather than another renter. 1) it's highly unlikely they will move out unless they sell the house, so you don't have to worry that someone might move in with three kids and a dog. 2) they are likely to take better care of the property than another renter. 3) they are right there in case things go wrong.

    I've never had a problem with the landlord complaining about noise. I've looked at a few places where they were up-front about the fact their bedroom was right over my living room or whatever, so I didn't take those places.

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    @patriotz: "simply refused to assume the banks’ obligations"

    … and devalued its currency.

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    @patriotz:

    NYC has the smallest proportion of SFH out of total dwellings of any US city, so there’s little economic rationale for basement suites.

    Basement suites are really the market saying that not enough of the city is zoned for multi-unit dwellings.

    New York has a ton of three story row houses that have been split into multiple suites, which is basically the same thing.

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    @941.3kCrackHouse:

    no, no, no

    what you do is,

    for floor numbers,

    you go 818, 828, 838, 83a8, 858, 868, 878, 888, 889, 8108, 8118, 8128, 8138, 813a8, 8158 and so on and so forth

    that way, you don't run the risk of leaving any potentially unlucky (only to our friends from the orient) numbers out on their own, and instead, you INSULATE them from, you know, nasty things like reality.

    hurrrr?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    fixie guy Says:
    39

    @26 Best place on meth Says: "Next best shape is Italy at 108%."

    On a per capita basis Canada is one spot better than Italy. Relative GDP it looks better, but don't forget ours is still inflated by a housing bubble. Thanks Steve-O!

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    @Keeperofthederp:

    I swear, if I ever decide to build an apartment building in Vancouver, it will have exactly the following floors:

    4, 13, 14, 24, 34, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 54, 64, 74, 84, 94, 444

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    Li Kai Shing Says:
    41

    @Yalie:

    and why is that?

    Your number sequence looks like Kirstie Alley's measurements since CHEERS ended.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    Devore Says:
    42

    @YLTN @ Work: Basement suites are also common in Victoria and Toronto. Look anywhere house prices are high. I think in the prairie provinces many houses either do not have basements, are not suitable for habitation, or the place design just does not allow for two suites easily. Prices were lower, land cheap, construction materials and labor plentiful, no need to account for basement dwellers.

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    Re: this story

    http://www.nsnews.com/business/Rental+developer+a

    Yikes….

    Local gov'ts are becoming involved as Utility Corporations.

    Scary…

    Taxpayer exposure….more bureaucracy.

    What I'd like to do is show you why I believe no one is building rental apartments in North Vancouver," he said. "What this pro forma shows is that you have to go all the way to 2020 on the net cash return line, nine years from now, before you get to a number that is similar to a government bond. That explains how challenging it is."

    Jardine said he isn't able to pass on the engineering fees – which pay for sidewalks, street lighting and a fire hydrant – to renters. Furthermore, he said, the cost to connect to LEC, the city-owned heating utility, was $296,000, nearly five times the price of conventional electric baseboard heaters.

    "Plus," he said, "in the electric environment we have a metered scenario in each of the units which creates an efficiency. Usage is charged directly to the tenants. With LEC, the costs to meter are astronomical and the costs are borne by the landlord."

    Jardine said while the city had given him a 50 per cent discount in development cost charges, he had thought the markdown would also apply to the project's building permit fees and Metro Vancouver sewerage fees, which knocked a further $30,000 from the bottom line.

    =========================================

    Rental marker has been dead since MURBS…early 1980's

    No wonder it is still dead.

    Hasta la Vista ..ariba…..basement suites !!!

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    Here's a couple of attempted flips in Metrotown to watch:

    MLS#: V893467

    7005 Gray Avenue

    Assessed: $780,000

    Sold: Mar 2010 $805,000

    Listed: Jul 2011 $1,340,000 (after some renos. maybe $40-50K worth)

    Note: This was listed in May 2011 for around $1.1 Mil and didn't sell, so now re-listed even higher!

    MLS#: V899271

    7162 Gray Avennue

    Assessed: $739,900

    Sold: Apr 2010 $790,000

    Listed: Jul 2011 $1,398,000 (after some renos. maybe $40-50K worth)

    Both of these houses are 1960's era bungalows and were bought just over one year ago, prettied up with renos and re-listed just after the one year mark to avoid the capital gains.

    These people must be watching old reruns of Flip-This-House.

    Also:

    7188 Gray Avenue

    Assessed: $697,500

    Sold: Oct 2010 $757,500

    House has now been demolished and a new spec. house is being built. This next door to 7162 Gray Avenue.

    Lots of builder and speculator activity in the Metrotown area south of Imperial Street. This area is very popular with the Chinese. However, I have noticed a sales slowdown in the market recently, with a noticable increase of listings in the area.

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    Li Kai Shing Says:
    45

    Lacist plicks !!!

    Marking my posts down!

    " 666" YOU..and 4Q

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    @Crash:

    awesome – should be interesting!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    Has anyone actually seen an Asian renovation?

    In HAM central…RichHAMond…I laugh like hell at the weeks they spend gutting an old house(ie 30years plus) with dumpster after dumpster…reno….then try to "frip it".

    The best one is to create a gated driveway…..pillars and then metal gate …one piece or two.

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    CanuckDownUnder Says:
    48

    But I thought HAM was just a Vancouver phenomenon!

    http://smh.domain.com.au/real-estate-news/chinese

    After all the bad news this week the Sydney Morning Herald is in severe crowd control mode today – Saturday is open house and auction day so it's important to show everyone how buying property is still a great investment.

    In addition to the HAM scare story a second headline simply read "Rocketing rents." That fluff piece contains an anecdote of some guys who offered more than the asking price on a rental unit, told how some pockets of the city were hot, and that rents were up 2.2% for the year. Meanwhile inflation is 3.3%. Rocketing indeed.

    And I wouldn't say that basement suites/mortgage helpers are specific to Vancouver, there are lots of them in Calgary (I've also noticed a lot of listings there ending in 888 lately, the local realtors must be hoping that HAM spreads across the mountains). Sydney doesn't seem to have them, then again houses here don't have basements. You will see the odd listing with a granny flat above the garage but those are few and far between.

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    Best place on meth Says:
    49

    @Crash:

    Well, you know what they say – if nobody's interested in buying your house then it must be priced too low.

    Anyway, Burnaby's gone cold just like every other area.

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    Today:38% S/L

    New Listings 227

    Price Changes 111

    Sold Listings 87

    Total Inventory: 16283

    Attached this week:43% S/L

    New Listings 930

    Price Changes 399

    Sold Listings 398

    Detached this week:47% S/L

    New Listings 675

    Price Changes 314

    Sold Listings 317

    Weak week for sales.

    Website: http://www.laurenandpaul.ca

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    Li Kai Shing Says:
    52

    McDonald's

    Listings:

    100 Billion served

    The end.

    Thank -you

    Thank -you

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    Best place on meth Says:
    53

    @Keeperofthederp:

    But you don't understand, the flipper put in hardwood floors.

    That's at least $400,000 right there.

    http://www.mls.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId

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    @Best place on meth:

    flipper was a dolphin

    this guy is an investor

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    YLTN @ Work Says:
    55

    @Best place on meth: yea, same kitchen up and down, but one has nicer appliances

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    Confused Says:
    56

    @paulb: Yo Paul, I am confused with the numbers. If I go by your individual day sold listings for the week, it totals 486 sale whereas the number that you are listing now for detached sold (398) and undetached (317) for a total of 715 units sold. Which one is correct, 486 or 715 units sold?

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    Li Kai Shing Says:
    57

    Flipper is a realtor now working at McDonald's

    Get it?

    OMG round eyes such dumbkopfs.

    No wonder live in basement suite for lifespan

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    Best place on meth Says:
    58

    @Confused:

    >>>Which one is correct, 486 or 715 units sold?<<<

    I get a 3rd number, 604 sales.

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    CanuckDownUnder Says:
    59

    This is hilarious. The financial advice given to a single woman in Calgary looking to buy a condo?

    Get a higher paying job.

    http://www.financialpost.com/personal-finance/fam

    Among the other gems:

    Although she makes $72K now she could earn $100K in the same job if she moved to Vancouver. Really?

    The argument for reducing her RRSP contributions is based on her average tax rate and not her marginal tax rate.

    At least they had one good bit of advice – keep renting!

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    @Confused:

    I was unable to grab a combined sales total for the week (over max) so I pulled out the detached and attached numbers for interest sake. I didn't bother giving a multifamily and land-only total which are the missing sales and listings. My weekly update will include everything.

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    @paulb:

    I also included last Fridays numbers in the earlier DET ATT numbers. Oops

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    ReadyToPop Says:
    62

    Bank of Canada Governor Mark Carney can't afford not to raise interest rates next week, a new report by a leading think-tank argues

    Think-tank urges Carney to raise rates Tuesday

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    Van MD Says:
    63

    the battle continues on the mainland chinese forum. http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&pr… (up to page 9 now), and http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&s

    "Rabbit" is a fellow rational housing bear, had an econ degree from Beijing. "Horse Dragoon" is one of the RE sub-forum moderator, sorta like the old Horton (sp?) of the Van RE Talks forum; loud and laughs at any talk that RE price will go down. "Shenzhen Mr. Tiger" is another sub-forum mod, working as realtor also.

    The voice of reason is beginning to be heard and accepted, with many forum users questioning the reasoning of RE pumpers, and recognizing the intrinsic conflict of interest behind the realtor prapaganda. I even got some friend requests on that forum lol!

    Van MD – saving lives by day, saving greater fools by night! Each life/fool saved is one battle won!

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    Van MD Says:
    64

    Help me out here (planning a response to a thread in the Chinese forum). This "hongyu.wang(at)bmo.com", a mortgage broker at BMO, who is also a financial sponsor to the forum, posted this thread titled "If interest rate rises, will home price fall?"

    too many gems: "If interest rate rises and home value does not fall, wouldn't you regret not having bought earlier?"

    "I would suggest that if you ever plan on buying, buy early! Whether interest rate rises or home price drops, the day you buy is the day you stop paying rent, work as the landlord's slave. If 1/3 of your income goes to the taxman, and 25% of your after-tax income goes to the landlord, then you are practically a slave 50% in a year for the government and the landlord.

    "It is rare for someone hesitating and waiting for home price to drop to get a home he wishes for. When home price falls, the amount of homes for sale will also fall, thus fewer choices for you." At the end he smartly covered his behind with "Above are just my personal view, for your references only".

    He also talked about correlation of interest rate vs home price, referring to a graph about US rate vs price 1970-2006, but saying in Canada interest rate is not the main factor behind home price. He also said in 2010-2011, new immigrants have been the driving force behind CANADIAN real estate. Geez, I feel my blood pressure rising just translating his rhetoric. I'm sure there are some graphs depicting rate-to-price relationships in non-immigrant-dominant markets in Canada?

    Ok, then "Horse Dragoon" replied "if interest rate rises, then home price will skyrocket! think about it, when potential buyers see a rising rate, they must hurry to lock in the rate before it rises further. Thus multiple offers and rising price! Also, bank managers will not raise rates too high, or else even they can't afford the houses at high rates and must resort in renting in a cockroach-filled, curry-smelling crappy apartment with an Indian roommate!" (Gosh, the Chinese often complain of racial discrimination, but they are often the more discriminating ones!)

    /end rant

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    Van MD Says:
    65

    oops, the previous post was about this thread on the Chinese forum. You can see the details of the BMO mortgage broker there.

    http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&pr

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    patriotz patriotz Says:
    66

    @Van MD:

    "Whether interest rate rises or home price drops, the day you buy is the day you stop paying rent, work as the landlord’s slave."

    Interest of course is rent on money, so you end up paying twice the rent. And it's the "homeowner" who's the (debt) slave not the renter, since a renter can pick up and leave at any time but it's the "owner" who must find a buyer at an inflated price to pay off their obligation to their master (bank).

    Funny how the Chinese themselves can make better caricatures than the resident Charlie Chans on this forum.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    @Best place on meth:

    This is the weekly total for all residential (detached, attached,multi-family,land-only):

    New Listings 1371
    Price Changes 620
    Sold Listings 601

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    @Van MD:

    vanMD

    i am about to join you on the real estate forums – i still haven't registered – i spent most of tonight just browsing and lurking the immigration and 'life in canada' forums – some of them are fantastic canadians – i especially enjoyed one's photo essay on how beautiful newfoundland is.

    others seem perplexed as to why it's illegal to shoot a bear in your backyard. buying a license, etc.

    do me a favor and when you see anything hilarious/particularly egregious/flagrantly amoral, press print screen, go to paint, ctrl-v and save as a jpeg and send it to me, if you like. there's just too much to wade through to do it myself.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    Devore Says:
    69

    @CanuckDownUnder: At least they recommend ditching bank-peddled mutual funds. How does a bond fund come with a 2% MER? That eats up 50% of the income. Sometimes the banks have their own fees on top of the fund expenses. The mind boggles.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    @Van MD: "Horton" (sp?)"

    I think it's spelled "Whoreton". Poster "Austin" got him banned. I didn't have the heart to ban Thompson.

    I cannot believe you're entering the belly of the beast. There are some mighty weeds to pull in there.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    Hey crew big Stu here. Look gang, in this town you don’t need to worry about real estate, any slowdown is just a buying opportunity for the next leg up. What Stu is worried about is the current state of the Whitecaps and Lions. Look these soccer clowns folded up like a two bit tent after the first two games. Don’t these jokers realize this is the best place on earth? Pick it up or ship it out to Toronto FC. The Lions are lucky everyone makes the playoffs in the CFL.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    @jesse:

    gloves, goggles and steel toes

    not to mention this

    http://i55.tinypic.com/iqljqs.jpg

    i just spent 4 weeks combing through riot footage – this is easy,

    if not a bit nauseating.

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    midnite toker midnite toker Says:
    73

    @CanuckDownUnder: I'm suprised you can make 6 grand a month selling office supplies. I'm getting screwed!

    oh well, another day another box of company pens

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    Patiently Waiting Says:
    74

    Anyone else notice how Scam Good has disappeared since the riots? I expected him to be leading the campaign to revive Vancouver's image. But not a peep, nor even a tweet, out of him in the past month.

    Two possible explanations:

    1) He is too busy trying to save failing condo projects.

    2) He is hiding from an army of haterz.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    gordholio Says:
    75

    Van MD: I'm home perusing the forum this morning because Vancouver's glorious weather has once again scuttled any plans I had of enjoying a mid-summer day.

    Anywho, Van MD, you're my hero. I've written media outlets, filed complaints with the CRTC/CSBC, plagued various real estate associations for spreading lies, and submitted one editorial to The Sun.

    But you sir, tread on new ground. What do you need from us?

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    Van MD Says:
    76

    @gordholio:

    now now, I don't deserve this much compliment : ) It's just that one day I realized, if the mainland Chinese (be it new immigrants / perm residents) are really a major player in BC RE bubble, then they should be the prime target for our "enlightenment". I can feel the English MSMs are beginning to shift their view on RE, and the same shift will likely be seen in public market sentiments.. but the Chinese population are very limited in the MSM they're exposed to (HK = Sing Tao/Ming Bao, Mandarin = World Journal.) Thus the Chinese are easier to be collectively influenced by this oligopoly of information control (I know, becuase my dad has always used "…but World Journal says [insert RE pumping rhetoric]" in response to my view re:RE). So I polished up my simplified Chinese and the game is ON! I'll definitely ask you guys when I need any info/graphics/charts during this process!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    Check out this great graphic sent to me by a friend from Money Sense magazine.

    "What you REALLY made on your home"

    http://tinypic.com/r/311xibn/7

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    @Van MD:

    vanMD

    i am assuming you are taiwanese?

    can you help me to open an account? i know a bit of mandarin from my travels and i would really like to open an informative dialogue – i have spent the day reading the forums and i am torn – one the one hand, there are so many that love the lifestyle here – at the same time, they do not understand the reasons for certain conditions of our lives at the present moment.

    there is a lot of misinformation – i have not once seen any mention of anything to do with the history of vancouver, bc or canada – no one even asks. they don't even talk about the head tax or the work on the railway.

    if we are going to bring in 300,000 immigrants a year, of which i am thinking about 75,000-100,000 must be chinese, something must be done to make them stakeholders beyond the concept of 'qiang' (to grab) a house, a passport 'the most valuable gift i can give my children' – err is that not a gift from canada? etc etc. i am starting to think their influence on the market is actually understated.

    as i have aging parents i can identify with their concerns about the expediency of our health care service (but maybe if it wasn't over burdened and under funded due to a lack of declared income from both private people and corporations alike, etc etc. – it's not just because 'canada is slow' and 'white youth are lazy, don't want to work' etc. etc.)

    "great minds think alike" this theme keeps coming up, too. :P

    help me open an account – i seem to have a problem getting past the 'user referral' screen on iask.ca – this is the forum i am most keen to join – my cantonese friend that was going to help me do this is in india still for a few weeks so..

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    Patiently Waiting Says:
    79

    OMG I found out what Scam Good is up to:

    "A few days after our conversation, I received an email from Good announcing his next venture. Seizing on what I assume was the same demand I was trying to surf, this summer he’s expanding to market of detached residential homes in Greater Vancouver to mainland Chinese buyers. Like a corporate version of our suitor David, Key will approach homeowners on the west side, in Richmond and West Vancouver – people whose homes are considered particularly salable – and convince them to sell, now, for 20 per cent more than whatever is the present market value. Buyers in China will be able to view the available properties through a website, potentially buying several million dollars’ worth of properties sight unseen.
"

    He is trying to crash the market. I may have been wrong about the guy.

    http://www.bcbusinessonline.ca/profiles-and-spotl

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    patriotz patriotz Says:
    81

    @Patiently Waiting:

    Like a corporate version of our suitor David, Key will approach homeowners on the west side, in Richmond and West Vancouver – people whose homes are considered particularly salable – and convince them to sell, now, for 20 per cent more than whatever is the present market value.

    That sets my BS meter off the scale right there. Market value is, of course, the highest price anyone is willing to pay you for your house and you are willing to accept.

    "Have I got a deal for you".

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    Curiosity Says:
    82

    Hot off the press. Ozzie Jurock named in court documents:

    http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/Real+estate+gu

    Never thought he was credible. His interest has always been pumping the real estate market to line his pockets. Believing him is like believing Rennie that pigs can fly. They're from the same boat.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    patriotz patriotz Says:
    83

    @mflat:

    Nice graphic, but it's enough to give anyone knowledgeable in finance a heart attack. First of all they exclude income (rental value). They don't distinguish between the interest (an expense) and the principal (an investment) parts of the mortgage payments. And they don't discount cash flows to present value.

    Just by looking at the numbers it's clear the owners really did make well over $100K, if I have a bit of time I'll try to figure out just how much.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    @mflat:

    But if you add back in the 10 years free rent, you are back at about the 200K figure. Without the appreciation, that rent would not have been so free, because it would have been gobbled up by all the things listed in the graphic. So the bottom line is that, due the timing at which the house was bought and sold, the purchaser came out 200 K ahead. So the graphic is very misleading.

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    Li Kai Shing Says:
    85

    sCAM d'GOOD

    Well…………..

    BC peeplz know cab driverz have best advice !!!!.

    The rickshaw driver are the best dopplegangers for cab/pizza drivers…..

    So…sCAM dGOOD and I will rent hericopters to land these rickshaw parties in strategic locales…….ie Whalley….Drummond Drive…and Lonsdale ( NOT shithole Burnaby Newton or PoCo).

    This is a UN mission….so trophy wives not suffer….inconsiderate round eye losers.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    Li Kai Shing Says:
    86

    Peeplz

    What U do….???

    Hire Viet- Cong War vets.

    Dig basement suite under basement suite.

    Can bootleg off upper trogladyte…(like Meth Man does.)

    Offshore landlord, ….busy banging concubi while laundering at casino …..not care. CRS deductible !!!

    Utilities included on rent…flat valuation…so run gas and electrical.

    Sewer??? shite in blue box or green bag.

    No one know…most sanitation engineers from West Van or Whalley Newton.

    Confuscious say:

    "Like is simple if head out -of -ass…see train coming "

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    Van MD Says:
    87

    @Keeperofthederp:

    ah, you need to answer the bot-screening question.

    if it asks "中国的首都是" then you type in "北京" in simplified chinese, etc.

    you don't need a referral to register, but you can certainly use " Greater Fool", good luck!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    @Van MD:

    yes, that's the thing, i know the capital is beijing.

    i do not understand why it wouldn't let me – is it allergic to firewalls?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    Coastal Says:
    89

    @Curiosity:

    This is Ozzie's second lawsuit in a year. Disgusting how he is still on the Michael Campbell show pumping his bullshit deals. But then again that show is mainly self serving scumbags trying to hawk their junk investment advice pay sites.

    http://classactionozzie.com/class-action-lawsuit-

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    Best place on meth Says:
    90

    @Keeperofthederp: #80

    I'm not sure if I'm missing anything from the Chinglish translation, but after looking through some of the other headlines the Chinese appear to be crapping themselves over the tightening of the Immigrant Investor Program.

    http://translate.google.com/translate?act=url&amp

    Hopefully this means they'll are getting discouraged about coming to Canada and will look to go elsewhere.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    @Best place on meth:

    https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate

    ^^^^^^^^^^^

    look at the view totals

    often times in the housing forums and in these immigration threads they talk about the "gift from god" of canada etc in re: to the housing bubble.

    "we're through the looking glass here, people"

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    @Best place on meth:

    i still think 700 tycoons per year is too many – how about 25?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    Li Kai Shing Says:
    93

    I keep telling you

    HAM?

    No…..They are people of His/Her-Spanic descent looking into the sun.

    aka His/Her-Spanic Aimless Money.

    Dumb round eyes

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    Runawayscreaming Says:
    94

    Re: Showing up to view a house in a Lamborghini Murcielago

    http://www.bcbusinessonline.ca/profiles-and-spotl

    It's so very, very sad and pathetic really. Reading that story is both enraging and mortally depressing. Disgustingly rich villains fat on the proceeds of corruption in the People's Republic are enriching the undeserving dumbbells in Vancouver who least deserve to be enriched. Meanwhile the ordinary citizens of Vancouver are being fucked up the arse with no remorse.

    It's no wonder so many people are jumping off the Lion's Gate Bridge. Vancouver was once the land of sparkling dreams for its inhabitants. Vancouver is now the graveyard of dreams if you are not a rich communist party cadre from China with a Murcielago and millions to spend on houses in Canada.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    @Runawayscreaming:

    that's why it's time to do battle on the intertubezZ

    https://downandoutinvancouver.wordpress.com/2011/

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    ReadyToPop Says:
    96

    Overload……..Overload!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    Li Kai Shing Says:
    97

    Chi-Kneeze peep-urz want to share wealth honestly earned..via hard work.

    Ewe ever try to Frip property …… or run sweatshop?

    Yeah…wud – I- tink….basement suite troglodytes……round eyes never do it !!…..lazy plixx……so not caLL a kettle Brack…..

    probably bet on Canux and beer – soaked nachos.

    PS next condo line-up in Whalley World -Isaac Newton !!!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    Jim Pattison Says:
    98

    # 94 Runawayscreaming Says:

    It’s no wonder so many people are jumping off the Lion’s Gate Bridge.

    \\\\\\\\\\\////////////////////////////

    Listen..

    If you hit my 1000 ft. yacht…..you lose your SAVE-ON points

    ……..OK?

    "JP"

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    A little help in getting the US back to the C-S 100 mark.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    Van MD Says:
    100

    Just refuted every single argument the BMO mortage specialist Mr Wang made:
    http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&pr

    pretty much shut him up, didn't even get a counter-argument back. In fact, his reply was that he agreed with my point that the quality of condos built in the recent housing boom have been very shoddy, which was why he only bought one pre-sale condo last year, and none this year. His next reply was an article describing the effect of rising interest rates in China, causing the cash-strapped "house-slaves" in China to sweat bullets.

    Did I just get him to agree with me on the effect of rising interest rate?

    It's all too easy… I better upgrade my firewall and internet security software, just in case if they get hold of my IP and send some Chinese cyber-attack squad my way…or worse…

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    @Van MD:

    VanMD

    nothing scare the wu mao dang like an actual individual.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    @Van MD:

    woo! :)

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    fixie guy Says:
    103

    @Runawayscreaming: You think Harper gives a rat fark about the people who built Canada? Think again. He's congenitally incapable of reasoning past 'good for business is the highest good".

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    Brittany Says:
    104

    I was at the top of Eagle Mt. in Abbotsford yesterday showing my out of town guest the view from an empty lot.This guy pops out of thin air (think he was hiding in the bushes or something)and says no no less than 3 times "You wanna buy this lot". Wow, the desparation………….

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    Best place on meth Says:
    105

    Van West SFH inventory has passed 600.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    @Best place on meth:

    must've been the incredible number of black bears this year!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    @fixie guy:

    you're being racist!

    /though terminating cliche

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    TPFKAA Says:
    108

    @VanMD

    Well done sir! Very well made and supported arguments. No one can argue against sense. Have you watched "twelve angry men"? (the original is best). Your tone reminded me of Henry Fonda… if you haven't seen it, I recommend watching it in case you need further inspiration…

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    Patiently Waiting Says:
    109

    As I astutely predicted many days ago, Crusty turned the Evergreen Line gas tax into a clown show:

    http://www.theprovince.com/business/Clark+flip+fl

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    Patiently Waiting Says:
    110
    Best place on meth Says:
    111

    Current MOI according to these guys http://www.vancouvermarketreports.com/

    Burnaby 4.0

    Van East 4.1

    Van West 4.7

    N. Van 4.7

    Coquit. 5.5

    Surrey 5.9

    Richmond 6.6

    M. Ridge 6.6

    Chilliwack 6.6

    White Rock 7.7

    Langley 8.3

    Abbotsford 8.3

    Mission 14.3

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    i'm just tired of all this. why do smart people have to feel so stupid at times?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    Van MD Says:
    113

    Need some help.. I'm trying to make an argument on the mainland chinese forum re: interest rate vs house price, that the 0% DP 40 year amortizations that was allowed by CMHC from 2007-8 will be coming up for renewal starting 2012, and thus will be reset at a higher rate.

    Question 1: when Mr. A with 0/40 mortgage of 500k 5 years ago comes in for renewal, does the bank need to requalify him for a new 30-year amort based on the new rules? (and how much will his monthly payment rise?)

    Question 2: what if Mr. B with 0/35 mortgage 5 years ago of 500k comes in for renewal? He would have only 30 years left on his old mortgage, what does he need to qualify for? (does he need to re-qualify at 5-year fixed rates, and will his monthly payment rise?)

    Question 3: forum user "DNW" says that "it's impossible for interest rates to rise drastically. If it rises gradually, it does not have immediate effect to the monthly payments; at most you pay more interest per month, but your monthly payment remains the same, until your mortgage comes up for renewal. Unless interest rates rise so fast that the current monthly payments don't cover the interest portion, or if a renewal is imminent, there will be no short term effect on the monthly payments."

    Is this true re: monthly payment stays the same throughout a term? what if it's variable rate? does the monthly payment change every month then?

    How should I counter user DNW's arguments, other then #1: the 0/40 are coming up for renewal real soon (see Question 1) #2: new buyers will have a harder time qualifying for a cmhc insured mortgage with a higher 5-year-fixed rate?

    Thanks VCI Thinktank!
    http://forum.iask.ca/showthread.php?t=480609&amp;…

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    Van MD Says:
    114

    (sorry to sorta hog this thread with another post, but this is a triumphant update)

    [BMO Mortgage Specialist Hong-Yu Wang]

    ~8 minutes ago

    "The current floating interest rate is 2.15%, 3.9% fixed 5 years or less, but in any case basis, and should not be regarded as the principal cost of it. Principal is your own equity, counted the cost is too far-fetched.

    If the rent is so low, it is not necessary to buy a house. BC's new immigrants are a fool, you should wait for house prices fell 60% to buy, it will be very loss oh."

    MUAHAHA straight out of a mortgage-pusher's mouth.

    http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&pr

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    patriotz patriotz Says:
    115

    @Van MD:

    CMHC-insured mortgages don't have to be requalified. The insurance is good for the whole original amortization period.

    Requalification would only be required if the borrower wanted to do a cash-out and increase the principal balance, or extend the remaining amortization (e.g. if there were 25 years to go and the borrower wanted to change to 35).

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    @Van MD: " monthly payment stays the same throughout a term? what if it’s variable rate? does the monthly payment change every month then?"

    On variable rate yes the monthly outlay changes, though there are certain products that will re-amortize if rates increase, and a capped reamortizing mortgage sounds like what that poster is describing, but I haven't seen them in common use.

    The big item with CMHC insurance, in my view, is the gap between interest rate qualification at low ratio versus that for high ratio. Say you take out 70% LTV mortgage that does not require CMHC insurance. Bank can qualify you at lower rate, say the 2.5% or 3%. If prices fall (I know; suspend disbelief), on renewal the mortgage could be high-ratio and your qualifications is based on 5 year rate, with an MI premium to boot. Ouch. That's one scenario I haven't seen dealt with well, other than "prices won't go down so don't worry".

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    fixie guy Says:
    117

    @107 Keeperofthederp Says: "you’re being racist!"

    When did not wanting a free trade deal with the EU become racist?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    Anonymous Says:
    118

    @fixie guy:

    hey,

    this is called thick sarcasm. very thick. i'm surprised you missed it. sorry for the misunderstanding. :(

    i laughed, though

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    Anonymous Says:
    119

    @Van MD:

    glorious master!

    thank you landlord! you are a scholar! etc etc

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    @Van MD:

    well they are ultra nationalists.

    i love that their students must 'defeat' their classmates at grades.

    and don't forget the 'milk' payments..

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    Wtfruk Says:
    121

    Van west moi will exceed ten within ten weeks

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    Anonymous Says:
    122

    All we need is for the next 30 years to go exactly like the last 30 years and we can all be rich!

    http://youtu.be/h-DXJMqjXJo

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    Wtfruk Says:
    123

    Shithittingthefannowcatsuckers

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    Best place on meth Says:
    124

    Ian Watt is a perfect example of what can happen to you when you mix cocaine, meth and airplane glue.

    According to him there won't be any price increases for the next 10 years, which takes us to about 2015. According to him.

    Also some babbling about baby boomers dying off and their kids spending the inheritance on real estate.

    Again, this will happen around 2015. About 10 years from now.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueX5_kZ4P6U

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    Many Franks Says:
    125

    @Best place on meth:

    Beautiful. And I suppose these wealthy dying boomers will also be living in RVs until then, since he doesn't seem to imagine them owning any real estate that might hit the market around the time of their deaths.

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    Poor Renter Says:
    126

    @FiveNeatGuys: Naturally, the wife pestered the husband into buying, then took half the house and the kid plus alimony from the divorce.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    Jim Pattison Says:
    127

    Insurbordinate and ungrateful SOB's

    Sure…..Skipper and Gilligan have to scrape the homo sapiens DNA off of my 10,000 meter yacht from Lions Gate Bridge Jumpers…….who bought pre-sale condo…mostly OV………….

    But hey…….the agent should have also provided coupons to Save-On stores…y'know….2 for 1 turkeys………..or sheperd's pie …..or dim sum packages ……

    I did my best ……….ya subterranean DORK'S ..

    If not suck the teat of West Van condescending benevolence…..4Q !!!

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    Patiently Waiting Says:
    128

    This weekend I discovered three different small restaurants I'm familiar with have closed. They were all better than average quality in my humble opinion.

    After talking to someone in the industry (manages a pub), I learned that the smaller restaurants are closing at a rapid pace right now. Bigger restaurants, who can take a loss for a while, are less likely to close. The business is brutal the last two years, so I hear.

    The credit/housingq bubble gave Vancouver a temporary gift that is now disappearing. We'll have to get used to less options while eating out and losing old favourites. Increasing costs can't be passed on to a cash-strapped public.

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    Jim Pattison Says:
    129

    @Best place on meth:

    Meth Man rules…….

    His knowledge is on par with Pee-Wee Herman and Barney the Dinosaur.

    Basement suite troglodytes have a vow of chastity and SAVE-ON coupons….so Meth Man can jerk off as gets 2:1 turkeys before Thanksgiving..butt vaseline 5o% off via MSP and HST.

    You have my # …ya SOB's

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    Bubba Says:
    130

    @Patiently Waiting:

    Comrade:

    Name the area…..don't "governate" the throttle.

    The Bilderberg agenda is to relegate "Ma and Pa INC." to a historical reference..not a 24/7/365 dynamic one.

    Peace Out !!!!

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    Patiently Waiting Says:
    131

    @Bubba: Not sure what you mean, but they were in New West – Tricities.

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    @Patiently Waiting:

    patiently waiting

    i am in the industry and it's way worse than that – believe me – you should see what they're hiring.

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