Bull or Bear – put your money where your mouth is.
There’s always a lot of talk about shorting the market on this blog. Well in the UK you really can short the housing market. IG Index, the financial spread betting outfit allows punters to speculate on many different markets, one of which is UK house prices. If this were offered in Vancouver, how many bears would put their money where their mouths are, so to speak?
http://www.igindex.co.uk/spread-betting/house-prices-example.html
October 15th, 2011 at 3:05 pm 1
I am a bear and would put 10% of my worth shorting this market.
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October 16th, 2011 at 7:42 pm 2
"Well in the UK you really can short the housing market."
Not really. What you can do is make a bet with someone on the future direction of the housing market. Now that's a short position, but it's not the same as short selling, i.e. actually selling the asset and promising to return it later. To make a bet you have to find someone who is willing to bet on the opposite outcome. So if nobody was willing to bet that prices in the UK would be higher next year, you could not make a bet on prices falling. You could only make a bet on prices falling more than a certain amount which is the consensus of the bettors.
The other thing is that since it is simply a bet and not a sale, it does not affect the market in the underlying asset. Short selling does of course affect the market because you are selling the actual asset.
Similar kinds of bets are available in the stock market but in this case they do always track the market because you can short the underlying asset and arbitrage makes the bets track the market.
Yes I'd be willing to actually short sell the Vancouver market provided the granularity was low enough – going short $1 million on any asset is just not for me, regardless of how much of a sure thing I think it is.
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October 16th, 2011 at 10:11 pm 3
Larry reports that as of today, for the three local boards, the total inventory is now 24768. He "…can't remember it being this high."
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October 16th, 2011 at 11:35 pm 4
The issue is one of timing. To wit bears are right about magnitude of correction but can only eyeball timing. All we can say is that one more year gone puts us one year closer.
But the same can be said about the apocalypse. What's the difference? That's a subject reserved for those who actually bother engaging in critical thought.
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October 17th, 2011 at 12:08 am 5
4 jesse Says: "The issue is one of timing."
Specifically, timing of federal government policies. Loose money caused this and, given I saw Carney tell the CBC yesterday we're active in the international community counselling other governments to keep it that way, the bet is more one of when Canada breaks.
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October 17th, 2011 at 12:32 am 6
@fixie guy: "the bet is more one of when Canada breaks."
Given how arrogant Flaherty and Carney are on the soundness of Canada's banking system and economic stability, it would sure be ironic if Canada was turned up on end with high debt loads and ballooning government balance sheets from underwriting underwater home loans.
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October 17th, 2011 at 12:55 am 7
Ahh…….quit putting everything into some sort of Stock Market commodity. That's why we are in the mess we are in.
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October 17th, 2011 at 1:25 am 8
Co-worker who makes approx. $70k has just been approved for a $650k mortgage.
Just another example of how our banks are so much more prudent and conservative than their American counterparts.
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October 17th, 2011 at 1:38 am 9
@Manna from heaven: Can he service it? Is it CMHC insured?
Prudent.
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October 17th, 2011 at 1:42 am 10
short the Canadian bank stocks and credit unions in BC
credit unions may go insolvent in a crash
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October 17th, 2011 at 1:43 am 11
Kind of a difficult question without specifics (which communities, length of time, etc, etc), however…
Given that the cost of living in the Greater Vancouver area is as painfully high as it is; given that report after report has been published that prove Canadians as a whole are out of money and that BCers lead the pack; given that three-quarters of familes already own a home; given that mortgage rates have nowhere to go but up; given that "renting" seems to have come out of the closet as the preferred lifestyle choice for many when prices are this ungodly high; given that the MSM – the leading purveyor of mispercetion – is now broadcasting and publishing pieces that 1) Use the bubble word, and 2) Are often more bearish than bullish; given that chopper-rappelling Chinese *aren't* buying everything in sight; given that the certifiably insane prices in this tiny little hunk of rainforest are already being assaulted from the perimeter; and given that Scam Good seems to have gone into hiding, yes, I would short housing.
In fact, by selling and now *very* happily renting, I in effect shorted it last year.
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October 17th, 2011 at 1:46 am 12
Very nice debt map from The Economist:
http://www.economist.com/content/global_debt_cloc…
Canada's per-capita debt is much higher than the US and most of Europe, including Greece.
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October 17th, 2011 at 1:53 am 13
Devore,
She would not be able to service a 650k mortgage but I guess the banks are smarter than her and figure she could.
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October 17th, 2011 at 1:58 am 14
@trash crash alert:
You can't short credit unions. That's why they're called "credit unions".
I agree that BC credit unions are the financial institutions which are likely to take the biggest hit from the coming bust – not so much from residential mortgages but from construction financing and consumer lending. It would be no big deal if a smaller one went under – it happens fairly often – but if a biggie like Vancity or Coast Capital failed it would present a big problem for the provincial government.
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October 17th, 2011 at 2:00 am 15
@gordholio:
"In fact, by selling and now *very* happily renting, I in effect shorted it last year."
No you didn't, any more than someone who sold his stock portfolio. You just took your gains.
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October 17th, 2011 at 2:01 am 16
@Manna from heaven:
"Just another example of how our banks are so much more prudent and conservative than their American counterparts."
They are. What could be more prudent and conservative than making a loan that the government has guaranteed to repay?
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October 17th, 2011 at 2:17 am 17
@Manna from heaven: "Co-worker who makes approx. $70k has just been approved for a $650k mortgage."
$650K at 2% is $2400/month or $29K/year. Add in other DSR costs and we're up to about $35K. That's 50% GDSR.
Likely he's either got supplemental income from relatives or other, and/or he's committed to renting out a basement suite or rooms to flatmates/students. I don't see how even a bank is going to qualify someone under the scenario you state.
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October 17th, 2011 at 2:34 am 18
@jesse:
Don't forget he has to qualify under the 5-year rate, which would bring the number up to $36K/year.
Something smells fishy about this anecdote.
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October 17th, 2011 at 2:36 am 19
Alright, I have had it with HAM…
I was driving down Oak this morning when I noticed in the rear view mirror a speeding vehicle weaving in and out of traffic. The car was Bentley and he flew past me at 100km.
I caught up to him at the lights. Of course, it was a middle aged Chinese man driving the Bentley – surprise, surprise, since we never saw Bentleys on the streets until the recent wave of HAM.
I yelled at him slow down and respect the laws, showed him the phone, and told him the police were coming for his speeding. Admittedly, I also yelled that they were coming to deport him. He just kept starring forward pretending not to see me…
However, I didn’t tell him that I was planning to phone in his license plate number to the police to tell them that I “believed” that the driver was clearly drunk and a danger to the public. And that is exactly what I did after – I pulled over and made my report.
Screw you HAM….
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October 17th, 2011 at 2:49 am 20
@Fed Up:
"since we never saw Bentleys on the streets until the recent wave of HAM"
Bob Rennie famously owns one that he managed to collect 204 parking tickets on. He's not Asian as far as I know.
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October 17th, 2011 at 2:50 am 21
@Manna from heaven:
"Co-worker who makes approx. $70k has just been approved for a $650k mortgage. "
$650K mortgage, or $650K purchase price? There's potentially a big difference.
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October 17th, 2011 at 2:58 am 22
"Bob Rennie famously owns one that he managed to collect 204 parking tickets on. He’s not Asian as far as I know."
He has one, and its well known that its an anomaly. Of course, he bought his at the same time HAM dollars came in and he bought it at least partially from selling to HAM.
Maybe you should check out Rennie's marketing team for the Olympic village. Pretty much all Asian realtors. Maybe Rennie has adopted the "Asian" face approach and needs the Bentley to sell those million dollar Olympic flops to his Asian clientele.
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October 17th, 2011 at 3:11 am 23
It's not a perfect way to bet on the collapse, but you could short REIT's i think. Unfortunately i don't know of one that focuses on overpriced vancouver shitboxes – i'd jump in with both feet on that one as soon as the price-fall gained a little traction.
There are some that are city focused like an.un which is primarily montreal and hr.un from toronto though i'm not sure what their residential holdings amount to.
PS – thanks for responses to my q. about buying US property last week.
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October 17th, 2011 at 3:15 am 24
@Troll: "Don’t forget he has to qualify under the 5-year rate"
O RLY? Says who? For CMHC-qualified loans I agree. But how about low-ratio loans? You're richer than you think.
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October 17th, 2011 at 3:46 am 25
@Troll:
Basement suite… or multiple basement suites.
Maybe he's going to live in the basement suite and rent out upstairs.
Laneway house?
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October 17th, 2011 at 4:02 am 26
@Jay Bytha Way:
"It’s not a perfect way to bet on the collapse, but you could short REIT’s i think. Unfortunately i don’t know of one that focuses on overpriced vancouver shitboxes "
REIT's generally have a target cap rate (net rental yield) of 8%. Figure out what that includes and excludes.
As well they are bought for cash flow not capital gains so their valuations tends not to move with RE markets.
And if you short a stock you have to pay the dividends.
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October 17th, 2011 at 5:57 am 27
@kansai92:
Fair enough…but then his income isn't $70K anymore.
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October 17th, 2011 at 6:05 am 28
@Troll:
"Fair enough…but then his income isn’t $70K anymore."
Probably less.
Hint: income = revenue – expenses.
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October 17th, 2011 at 6:15 am 29
At the provincial and local level, a transparent, STATE-owned and well-manged central banking institution could help local farmers and entrepreneurs with maintaining their productive operations, and expanding when it's deemed prudent to do so. Almost none of the credit money generated would finance operations outside of the province or be funneled through the TBTF national banks, which are best described as the insatiable tape worms living in the digestive tract of a developed capitalist society.
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October 17th, 2011 at 6:28 am 30
@patriotz:
Howdya figure? If he's renting out his basement his household expenses aren't increasing much, if at all.
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October 17th, 2011 at 7:02 am 31
@Bolier:
I'm looking to buy some "deluxe" SUV or car (of course nothing high-end like those Fu-Er-Dai morons from Super Sports Car Club drive) but so far I can't come up with anything that isn't associated with HAM/Chinese drivers being behind the wheel when in Vancouver (if I go to US, all is good). I'm almost feel ashamed to even consider anything from those good cars like Porsche Cayene, BMW 5/6X, Mercedes ML, Lexus RD, etc driving in this city. Is there anything out there that doesn't look like hamster is driving it, any ideas, suggestions?
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October 17th, 2011 at 7:03 am 32
@patriotz: Income IS your revenue. Perhaps you meant profit/loss?
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October 17th, 2011 at 7:09 am 33
Steve
I’m looking to buy some “deluxe” SUV or car…
________
Lots of choices, but not necessarily as good as the HAM cars…
Get a Nissan 370, or a new Corvette, or a 65 corvette, or any other classic sports car…
Make a statement with a classic sports car….
Fortunately, HAM all want to look the same – they never touch vintage cars!
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October 17th, 2011 at 7:12 am 34
Speculative investing doesn't form a significant part of my investments, so I probably wouldn't put any money on it. Something about predicting both the event as well as its timing? Or irrational markets testing your endurance?
If I owned something that I believed to be overpriced, I would sell it and move on to something else, rather than short it. Plenty of investment opportunities available you can base on quantifiable fundamentals, such as earnings and dividends. You might not double your money in a year, but you also don't have a heart attack every time the tape jiggles in the other direction.
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October 17th, 2011 at 7:14 am 35
[T]he demand isn't simply to make a public bank but is to treat the banks generally as a public utility, just as you treat electric companies as a public utility. . . . Just as there was pressure for a public option in health care, there should be a public option in banking. There should be a government bank that offers credit card rates without punitive 30% interest rates, without penalties, without raising the rate if you don't pay your electric bill. This is how America got strong in the 19th and early 20th century, by essentially having public infrastructure, just like you'd have roads and bridges. . . . The idea of public infrastructure was to lower the cost of living and to lower the cost of doing business.
We don't hear much about a public banking option in the Camada, but a number of countries already have a resilient public banking sector. A May 2010 article in The Economist noted that the strong and stable publicly-owned banks of India, China and Brazil helped those countries weather the banking crisis afflicting most of the world in the last few years.
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October 17th, 2011 at 7:41 am 36
@Fed Up:
"He just kept starring forward pretending not to see me…"
Next phase…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ws3a4yrKsY&fe…
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October 17th, 2011 at 7:43 am 37
Just got back from Bilderberg (flew economy )
Not lookink good, given PIIGS have "burnt the fortune cookie" and left a mess with no tip.
We are trying to swap and trade assets, but Carney Flaherty and Harper eyeing my 2011 calendar concubines. Not getting much work done as we Bilderbergs try to save the world
Good News is they are willing to take Canned Schmucks and re-locate to Lebanon. Anytink to get rid of Loser- Wongo in nyet.
Keep U posted.
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October 17th, 2011 at 7:53 am 38
@patriotz: "Hint: income = revenue – expenses
I think this is a coy way of saying that costs of ownership are often higher than budgeted, assuming this person even made a budget. It could be lender was using 80% offset instead of 50% add-to-income, so it's a valid comment.
@Devore: " Income IS your revenue"
The DSR ratios implicitly convert revenue from salary AKA "income" to accounting income to determine debtor's ability to handle carrying costs. When banks start doing tricks with basement suites like rental offset it increases revenue but arguably doesn't fully account for long-run expenses. Which is part of the reason why CMHC refuses to accept rental offset when calculating revenue any more.
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October 17th, 2011 at 7:54 am 39
Listen.
Bentley's ?????
You basement suite troglodytes do not appreciate HAM are the chosen peepulz for BC.., our destiny is to export your high paying jobs, inflate RE, crowd you out of social services your predecesors created, make sure UBC = University of a Billion Ch–ks , Keep SFU as Wal Mart of BC universities …..and keep you as basement suite trogoldytes instead of uppity round- eyes.
That said, if you have Bentley envy, we have this proletariat option
http://www.oldbug.com/rolls.htm
Note…not much of back seat…may have to create sun roof so flailing legs have room.
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October 17th, 2011 at 8:02 am 40
@jesse:
So you agree with Patriotz that renting your basement may reduce your income? Wow. I would LOVE to hear how this is reasonably possible.
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October 17th, 2011 at 8:16 am 41
@Troll: Negative gearing?
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October 17th, 2011 at 8:17 am 42
http://news.goldseek.com/GoldSeek/1318863780.php
Vancouver housing bears, read and weep….
You know that this is how it's going to end. When Ben sabotages the USD recent rally and stops it dead in the track, you will be looking at massive inflation happening both in the US and China, prompting more speculation money to arrive in Vancouver West side. 5M for a typical SFH on West side won't be out of the realm.
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October 17th, 2011 at 8:20 am 43
@Troll: "So you agree with Patriotz that renting your basement may reduce your income? "
Yes it may. But I may get into a car accident on my way home from work.
That aside, I think a major point is that banks may be overbooking NOI on rentals, either by offset treatment or liberal prevailing rent assumptions, which would increase DSRs above what is considered "manageable" according to best practices. I've seen enough tricks done by mortgage specialists to boost DSRs to know not everyone is on the borrower's team. They probably will start counting investment income as well, even if some of that is supposed to be reinvested for retirement.
Also if this guy plundered his RRSP (assuming he had one) it will need to be paid back over the next few years, so that's another negative operating cash flow in the form of a forced savings plan.
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October 17th, 2011 at 8:27 am 44
@Troll: "how this is reasonably possible"
So in my view it's "reasonable" that if this guy buys a "fix-er-upper" that he significantly underestimates the time and money required to get it into working order to start producing desired rental income. If he is maxed out on DSRs, he (and the bank) may have budgeted rental income inappropriately without properly budgeting for renovation and delayed revenue onset, in which case he's taken on extra debt but without means of generating adequate revenue, and has little ability to refinance for renovations through normal channels.
I think that would be "reasonable", though rare.
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October 17th, 2011 at 8:39 am 45
@Troll:
"So you agree with Patriotz that renting your basement may reduce your income? Wow. I would LOVE to hear how this is reasonably possible."
I've done it myself.
Take a good look at line 126 of T1 General, and Form T776.
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October 17th, 2011 at 8:41 am 46
Li KAi : "Just got back from Bilderberg (flew economy )"
what the build a burgers say what the future holds for Bee Cee proleteriat?
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October 17th, 2011 at 8:50 am 47
@patriotz:
Oh come on, really? We're talking about 'money in the bank' income, not taxable income. The bank cares about 'money in the bank' income, you know that.
Renting your basement just allows you deduct some expenses (that you've been paying all along) against your rental income resulting in a lower tax bill. With high mortgage interest levels like Van circa 2011, usually you have to zero tax on rental income.
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October 17th, 2011 at 8:54 am 48
Yet another reason why the coming bust will last for decades:
Home-owning baby boomers should consider ‘for-sale’ signs now
But we're not going to have to wait 10 years for prices to start falling, because the market will run out of buyers before that.
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October 17th, 2011 at 8:55 am 49
@Troll:
"We’re talking about ‘money in the bank’ income, not taxable income."
Who's "we"? Money in the bank is cash flow, not income.
Perhaps you should read "Finance for Dummies".
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October 17th, 2011 at 9:02 am 50
@patriotz:
Foot is dead wrong about this. That kind of inflation would result in interest rates of over six per cent, and wages wouldn't keep up.
He talks about the low prices of the mid-80's, but he hasn't been able to connect the dots between the defeat of inflation shortly thereafter and the rise of house prices since, enabled by lower interest rates.
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October 17th, 2011 at 9:58 am 51
However, based on public comments by Mr. Carney in the past year, the new five-year mandate is likely to include a forceful assertion of what he calls “flexible inflation targeting,” or his right to respond to economic shocks or dangerous buildups of credit by taking longer than usual to bring inflation to the central bank’s 2-per-cent target.
Bank of Canada to get marching orders to look beyond inflation.
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October 17th, 2011 at 10:23 am 52
@patriotz:
>>>Foot is dead wrong about this. That kind of inflation would result in interest rates of over six per cent, and wages wouldn’t keep up.<<<
That made me laugh as well. It's amazing how many people don't have a clue what high inflation does to interest rates.
I can just imagine the blood-curdling screams all across Vancouver if home owners had to refinance at 7% when their 5 year terms end.
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October 17th, 2011 at 10:29 am 53
Popez:
This world class BLOG seems to have leprechaun trolls taggink our Nobel Prize worthy posts with green coloured links.
Can't you tell Al Gore to F*ck off ……or we pass the hat sick world class stalker Monica L. on him ?
Tanks
LKS
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October 17th, 2011 at 10:34 am 54
Oh yeah..I forgot Carney and Flaherty are Ir*sh….bloody SOB M*cks…never should have let them potato( Ir*sh 7 course meal = 6 pack and a potato ) suckers in here.
This is video of trip to Ireland !
( Warnink..not for those with weak stomachs !!! )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XqbJkm0VZU
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October 17th, 2011 at 10:56 am 55
Increasing debt was a tool to mask declining industrial base through decades of outsourcing and trade deficit. Debt and de-industrialization are two sides of the same coin.
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October 17th, 2011 at 11:10 am 56
New Listings 243
Price Changes 148
Sold Listings 119
TI:16815
http://www.laurenandpaul.ca
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October 17th, 2011 at 11:16 am 57
@jesse: exactly, who knows how long this crazy ponzi scheme could go on for? It Could be 6 months could be a few more years before the shit really hits the fan.
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October 17th, 2011 at 11:20 am 58
short clip titled "Of the 1%, By the 1%, For the 1%"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORZuVK-it9E&fe…
how many of you guys listened to Steve Keen? Agree or Disagree?
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October 17th, 2011 at 11:29 am 59
@Steve: Mercedes G-Wagen
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October 17th, 2011 at 11:43 am 60
"Mercedes G-Wagen"
Does Luongo still drives Merc G500?
I have not been recently to Yaletown's hot spots where he hangs out.
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October 17th, 2011 at 12:08 pm 61
October 2011 data
Average Sales 126
Total Sales 1261
Average Listings 261
Total Listings 2606
Average sell/list 50%
Days in month 20
Days elapsed 10
% days elapsed 50%
Expected sales 2,522
Expected listings 5,212
Max daily sales 166
Min daily sales 94
Max daily listings 319
Min daily listings 192
October 2010 data at same point in month
Average Sales 113
Total Sales 1128
Average Listings 207
Total Listings 2066
Average sell/list 55%
Days in month 20
Days elapsed 10
% days elapsed 50%
Expected sales 2,256
Expected listings 4,132
Max daily sales 145
Min daily sales 67
Max daily listings 268
Min daily listings 165
October 2010 month end data
Average Sales 120
Total Sales 2392
Average Listings 188
Total Listings 3762
Average sell/list 66%
Days in month 20
Days elapsed 20
% days elapsed 100%
Expected sales 2,392
Expected listings 3,762
Max daily sales 193
Min daily sales 67
Max daily listings 268
Min daily listings 105
Previous sales volume
1999 1680
2000 1765
2001 2379
2002 2866
2003 3765
2004 2735
2005 3099
2006 2722
2007 3028
2008 1364
2009 3700
2010 2337
Halfway through October. Sales up, listings up. Looks to be about 6 MOI or so. Inventory has likely peaked for the year.
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October 17th, 2011 at 12:41 pm 62
OMG-ink
I tink this blog has too many Canned Schmucks season ticket holders who cant' handle the TRUTH ( + HST).
Trade Loser Wong-o to pizza restaurant = keepink Schneider !
(And you wonder why I havink Turd-on-to Maple Laughs jersey ? )
There are children in West Van and Whalley Newton who's parents are behind in their thoroughbred horses boardingk fees !!!
You peepulz make me sick !
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October 17th, 2011 at 12:51 pm 63
Chanos: China’s hard-landing has already begun
China’s bust will be a thousand times worse than Dubai
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/chanos-chinas-ha…
In addition to his observations regarding the imploding economy he goes on to more or less call the Chinese lying, cheating scum.
It's hard to argue with that.
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October 17th, 2011 at 12:55 pm 64
They talk about "hair cuts" to bank bondholders in Greece. But how do you perform a "hair cut" on someone that is already bald? Or did they mean a head cut?….Guillotines are used for head cuts
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October 17th, 2011 at 1:09 pm 65
@jesse:
Thank you jesse for the excellent info!
Just wanna point out that if you divide the total sales (1261) / total listings (2606) = 48% (rather than 50%), thus continuing the -7% difference in terms of [sales/new listing] ratio vs last October : ) (unless the percentage is calculated by some other formula)
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October 17th, 2011 at 1:27 pm 66
@VMD: "Rounding error". That's the last time I outsource calculations to the Okanagan Real Estate Board!
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October 17th, 2011 at 1:38 pm 67
"What is the role of morality in a free market economy?" Our economic theory glorifies greed. We are taught by Adam Smith that when everyone is pursuing self-interest, the society benefits as a whole.
So how do we reconcile that with morality which says that we should have advance society's interest, have compassion for fellow human beings, and that we should care for the weak among us.
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October 17th, 2011 at 1:40 pm 68
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/per…
Sell before the rush to the exit :0
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October 17th, 2011 at 1:54 pm 69
@ Best place on meth
If Chanos is even remotely as close as he was in predicting Enron….
In the long run though, it's yet another country that'll be going through what I feel,
is a necessary phase of real estate deleveraging.
Here?
…..I don't think we've even begun.
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October 17th, 2011 at 2:31 pm 70
@Best place on meth: "China’s hard-landing has already begun"
I think China's hard landing is baked in, I'm less certain how long it will take to manifest itself. I wouldn't be surprised if China takes another couple of years, there is some thought that the government will attempt to keep the economy moving until the politburo changes hands in 2012.
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October 17th, 2011 at 3:06 pm 71
This is the most sickening HAM related story I have ever seen or read…
http://www.vancouversun.com/stops+help+child+vict…
So if you think HAM will ever stop and help you… think again.
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October 17th, 2011 at 3:20 pm 72
@Fed Up:
So you made a false report to the police, and you are proud of yourself? It's hard to determine your attitude toward the law.
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October 17th, 2011 at 3:31 pm 73
@jesse: "Inventory has likely peaked for the year."
Careful, when I said that I got ripped to shreds.
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October 17th, 2011 at 3:41 pm 74
@900kCrackHouse:
I am both disgusted and saddened by this event.
China needs a serious gut check. What the hell has happened to this once proud culture?
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October 17th, 2011 at 3:54 pm 75
@900kCrackHouse:
even sadder … you know why people don't help in China? There are cases of people turning around and suing them for helping or calming that they were the ones responsible for the incident. What a f'd up world we live in … regardless of race or colour ….
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October 18th, 2011 at 1:10 am 76
That China incident is horrible, but I wouldn't use it to vilify China. There have been similar incidents in the US too, e.g.:
http://articles.cnn.com/2008-07-02/us/waiting.roo…
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October 18th, 2011 at 11:04 pm 77
[...] “Co-worker who makes approx. $70k has just been approved for a $650k mortgage. Just another example of how our banks are so much more prudent and conservative than their American counterparts.” – ‘Manna from heaven’ at vancouvercondo.info 17 Oct 2011 9:25am [...]
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