Ambitious people leaving Vancouver
The economy in this city is broken. I can no longer count on two hands the number of friends and coworkers who have left to find better opportunity elsewhere in the last few years. As Vancouver Magazine points out, it’s what young ambitious people are doing right now. Vancouver is squeezing the middle class out.
Around January 2002, the average price of a detached house in Metro Vancouver was $390,000. That has since nearly tripled to $1.1 million. For those who couldn’t or didn’t buy in—who were outbid, came late to the party, or sat it out waiting for a massive market correction—real estate has been a dismal science. This July, the MLS listed only 24 two-bedroom condos for sale under $300,000. That’s the maximum mortgage available to a household earning the median family income; Vancouver proper has about 30,000 renter households in that category. The story of real-estate affordability here can be told in that one stat: in a city of over 600,000 people, two dozen bottom-of-the-barrel starter condos available for sale to the middle class.
November 1st, 2011 at 1:21 pm 1
Not only leaving, some are just plain staying away. I've talked to people from other parts of Canada who say that sure, they wouldn't mind living in Vancouver, but WTF is up with the property prices? That idea sure gets shelved in a hurry when they take a quick look at MLS!
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November 1st, 2011 at 1:38 pm 2
The title is an oxymoron at best. Ambitious people NEVER WERE attracted to Vancouver. BC has always been the hardest place for an honest working stiff to make it, for many reasons, one reason being how overly complicated and political the workplace is here, compared to many other places in the country. Not so long ago all we heard about was the lack of skilled workers, the sky is falling, now skilled workers are leaving in droves? Good, I could use a job and a raise. I just wish this place could make up its mind once in a while.
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November 1st, 2011 at 1:47 pm 3
One of the cities mentioned in the featured article was San Diego. Well here's the situation there now. My personal opinion is that cheap money and easy terms have inflated RE here more than anything else and it is impossible to make a "Vancouver will never be affordable again" prediction until we're living in a more normal monetary environment.
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Foreclosure numbers in San Diego County likely reached their peak nearly two years ago, when banks seized almost 6,000 homes in a single month. But they still remain at near-record highs — far above those during the recession of the early 1990s — and the Anderson economists do not see them falling soon.
SD economy will 'grind along' through 2013
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November 1st, 2011 at 1:53 pm 4
[Victoria October Stats are out]
Greater Victoria – Residential units
Year- Sales/Inventory: MOI
2011- 461 / 4687 : 10.2
2010- 445 / 4050 : 9.1
2009- 691 / 3250 : 4.7
SFH – Average / Median Price (Greater Victoria)
2011-10: 595,836 / 539,750
2011-09: 622,393 / 535,000
2011-08: 652,841 / 547,000
2011-01: 603,401 / 576,000
2010-12: 647,063 / 574,750
2010-11: 636,634 / 530,000
2010-10: 641,780 / 539,500
Since December 2010, Greater Victoria SFH average price dropped 51k (-8%), while median price dropped 35k (-6%)
http://www.vreb.org/pdf/vrebgap.pdf
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November 1st, 2011 at 1:55 pm 5
how is a teacher in mid thirties ambitious. what a load of crap. nice arts degree bud…way to shoot for the stars.
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November 1st, 2011 at 2:09 pm 6
@chilled: "overly complicated and political the workplace is here, compared to many other places in the country."
I'm curious what you mean.
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November 1st, 2011 at 2:15 pm 7
@lol cats: Yeah, he should have taken Engineering. Then he could do tech support in a Shaw call centre. Now that's a career.
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November 1st, 2011 at 2:28 pm 8
@Patiently Waiting:
"I’m curious what you mean."
I've worked across the country and in the US a bit. If you can work in BC you can work anywhere. What I mean is we have a backstabbing work culture driven by less jobs, lower paying jobs, overall, a society of careless unhappy people that we have to work with. Have a good day at the office, just keep your back to the wall!! As soon as there is any relief from this, in the form of increasing job opportunities, government, business and the turds and CanWest Global start a propaganda campaign encouraging the need for "more workers." Idiots in the public quickly jump on board because "it was on the news." I think this last campaign hasn't even wrapped up yet? How long ago was the Lieberal government running ads in Ontario to attract workers? Lets not even get into that holy grail of immigration! It's not as though the fucking fiasco called Canada's Immigration system has contributed to the mess in Vancouver. The 70's & 80's was much better when the average 3rd world immigrant simply shat on the street. That mess you could walk around, THIS mess is inescapable. Vancouver isn't the worst place in the world to live but moving here decades ago is way up on my list of 'bad decisions I wish I never made' because even 25yrs ago it was more work, less selection, less money and incorrigible bag lickers doing what they do best.
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November 1st, 2011 at 3:25 pm 9
@Patiently Waiting: Haha So true
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November 1st, 2011 at 3:38 pm 10
Can't see my post, is this all going to /dev/null ?
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November 1st, 2011 at 3:59 pm 11
City urges speculators to cool it as housing market heats up along Cambie corridor
Read more: http://www.theprovince.com/news/City+urges+specul…
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November 1st, 2011 at 4:27 pm 12
@chilled: I found office politics worse back east. YMMV
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November 1st, 2011 at 6:41 pm 13
Hey… listings in November are still high. Yesterday saw 229 new listings, which blew away November 2010's highest listing day by 20% out of the gate. What's the deal with that?
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November 1st, 2011 at 7:48 pm 14
Interesting read, thanks! Ironically, I left Vancouver earlier this year to work in Germany. People are still shaking their heads as to why I left as I had a decent job (also above the average) and kept telling me to buy (even though mortgage would have been 2.5 times my rent) I now live in Germany where renting isn't frowned upon and my rent combine with car payment is just under a third of my take home monthly salary. There are a zillion challenges to living here, but affordable living is NOT one of them. What's interesting though about German real estate is that the word bubble is never thrown around. Housing prices go up very slowly (a bit beyond inflation so it seems) so no one's getting rich, but no one's losing their shirt either. You buy a house as a place to live in and slowly build equity, not as a means of getting rich. And, renting is a perfectly acceptable way of living, even well into your 50's.
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November 1st, 2011 at 8:34 pm 15
@katherine: I'm right there with you, at least metaphorically. I left Vancouver for a lot of reasons. I had 2 career streams to choose from, IT/management and culinary. To be honest I couldn't find a job in either, and neither could a lot of my culinary school buddies. Most of them left Vancouver.
I left 2 years ago almost to the day and I've had a much easier time of it since then. I've climbed the ladder quickly, going from a technical consultant to Morgan Stanley ro a technical project management role, and currently I'm a senior business analyst specializing in cloud based IT solutions, specifically Salesforce related engagements. My salary has climbed accordignly. While I'm making very good money now, it wouldn't be enough to even consider purchasing even a shit shack in Van.
While I found Vancouver beautiful, I think in a lot of ways people are deluded. I'm sorry, but you don't have "the best weather in Canada". It's not cold in winter but you guys have the darkest, dreariest winters I've ever experienced, and I've lived in Ottawa in February. The city's surroundings are beautiful but that's about it.
The worst thing about the place is the whole nature of the housing market. The numbers on renting there and in Toronto might be similar, but they don't tell the whole story. The rental stock in Vancouver is *awful*. Most of the apartments I saw were in horrible shape.
Worse is the stigma around renting, which happens no where else in Canada. There's this whole weird vibe around renting, it's like there's something wrong with you.
I finally got tired of feeling like no matter how smart or well educated or determined I was, I was never going to get ahead in Vancouver. It's a pretty place and I don't mean to slam the city but I'm glad I left. I keep reading Vancouver housing blogs because honestly, you guys are at ground zero in the Canadian housing bubble and from a sociological standpoint, it's fascinating.
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November 1st, 2011 at 9:13 pm 16
@scullboy:
Well I guess it's time to come out of the closet and tell everyone I have left too. Not to become a homeowner again, which I don't aspire to in the near future, but for better job opportunities and quality of life.
But I'll keep following things, because as you say, it's fascinating – in a repulsive sort of way, like Eraserhead.
I'll put together a post on my new city shortly.
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November 1st, 2011 at 10:14 pm 17
@patriotz:
Now all I can think about is Bob Rennie in a white 50s style dress with swollen puss filled cheeks dancing by a radiator and singing "In Yaletown, Everything is Fine" while worms drop all around him.
I don't think I'm going to buy, either. It's not about prices any more. in the last five years I've changed cities 3 times for work, and I doubt things are going to change. There's a competitive advantage in one's career if one can say "I can change cities with no problem, just day the word". A house is not longer a storehouse of value, it's an anchor.
At least for me.
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November 1st, 2011 at 10:51 pm 18
Hi katherine with a k,
Can you please talk a little more about the challenges you are facing Germany?
I am considering making a move to Europe and I am looking for any insights.
Btw, I have just returned to Vancouver after being away for a year and half and it never cease to amaze me how it always feels like I am returning to a 3rd world country. The city (and I don't mean West side or yaletown) just looks rundown and its people look downright poor (superficially at least).
Noname
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November 1st, 2011 at 11:10 pm 19
@jesse: I seem to remember a similar thing happening in 2008 – listings exploded well before Lehman blew up (started around the time Bear-Sterns had hints of problems). The cycle is a little off this time though, but suggests investors are off loading before sovereign defaults occur in Europe and/or the FTB market seizes when it hits the limits of affordability at current low rates.
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November 1st, 2011 at 11:18 pm 20
Uh oh bears…
Biggest bear of them all has left Vancouver…
Patriotz has left the building…
Sad day when the most ardent bear demonstrates its a lost cause for bears in Vancouver by leaving the city…
Pesky bears – please follow the example..
Make way for your HAM overlords…plenty of them waiting for you to leave…
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November 1st, 2011 at 11:27 pm 21
@noname
I could go on and on about the language, work culture and general bureacracy of things, but the 6 weeks a year vacation and overall affordability/quality of life almost makes up for the fact that I drive thru the farm fields of Bavaria to get to work. (not sure if it'll show up but put a link for my blog if you'd like to read more)
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November 1st, 2011 at 11:52 pm 22
Thanks katherine with a k,
I'll have a read.
Looks like there is quite a bit to go through
Noname
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November 2nd, 2011 at 12:22 am 23
@observer: There wan no hint in the inventory or sales numbers in 2007 that 2008 was going to see the most dramatic housing recession in a generation. It even caught "bears" off guard how it went down, surpassing the worst downturn of prices stateside.
That is until mid 2009 when stimulus kicked in and all of Canada got a jolt; as well a high level if immigration helped absorb inventory relatively quickly.
The level of inventory Vancouver is seeing now is higher than past years, I am looking for a higher inventory in spring 2012 only due to lower population growth and increased under construction that will come online in early spring.
I don't expect a giant housing recession like '08 but remember '07 showed no ill signs either!
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November 2nd, 2011 at 12:34 am 24
Another credit to the real estate "profession".
"The Real Estate Council of B.C. has launched an investigation after a licensed agent was charged last week in a gangland kidnapping.
Nazfar Victoria Mirhadi, 28, a realtor since December 2006, is to appear in Vancouver Provincial Court today for a bail hearing."
Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/Realtor+Nazfar+Mirhad…
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November 2nd, 2011 at 12:34 am 25
Vancouver was never a career mecca but up until a few years ago it was possible to survive in Vancouver on Vancouver wages. I always loved the Vancouver weather, the multicultural nature of the city and the hopes and dreams for an urban utopia by the sea.
That all ended when speculation went wild. Of course real estate prices went so far beyond the means of someone earning a living in Vancouver that it is both hilarious and sickening at the same time. The rental market also became absolutely terrible (unless you enjoy living in the spider-infested mouldy basements of speculators or the expensive upper floors of a poorly-maintained house that is in constant danger of being flipped by its speculator).
What finally did it for me was not being able to expand my business because my suppliers had fled the city, industrial leases and commercial property taxes were being affected by the inflation of residential prices and industrial land was being taken over to build condos for speculators. Never mind that it is impossible to attract middle-class workers to move to Vancouver.
I could not have been a greater enthusiast for Vancouver. I was involved in the community and City Hall. Now I feel anger and resentment. I feel I have been betrayed by my own government, which has facilitated the displacement of Vancouverites by using government policy (low interest rates and taxpayer-backed CMHC guarantees to reckless lenders) to fuel speculation in Vancouver. I am also unhappy that the Federal government has encouraged the Robber Baron class of arrogant Communist Party cadres in the People's Republic of China to deposit their ill-gotten flight capital in Vancouver real estate. I cannot compete with that kind of foreign wealth and I am not interested in being run over by a Chinese teenager street-racing a Lamborghini Murciélago in Vancouver. I lived on the west side of the city and that is the part of Vancouver that has been most-purchased with money from the People's Republic. The west side is the low-density side but it is half the geographic area of Vancouver. It seems like the best part of Vancouver has been purchased by China (and not Canadians of Chinese descent in Vancouver).
In a very short time, Vancouver has gone from being the gumboot paradise by the sea to being a tense situation with a rapidly falling standard of living, reduced career opportunities, an economy based on real estate speculation and no hope for someone trying to make an honest living in Vancouver. It seems that Vancouver has become a playground for rich, evil douchebags making money elsewhere and a living graveyard for the middle-class Vancouverite making a Vancouver salary.
I now live in another Province. I made a very expensive move to flee the madness. I miss my home Province but I could not afford to live there anymore. I will cherish the good memories and I will try not to think about what Vancouver has become. I don't think there is any future for Vancouver. There are too many interested parties in positions of influence making money from the status quo.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 12:43 am 26
@katherine with a k:
"I now live in Germany where renting isn’t frowned upon…And, renting is a perfectly acceptable way of living, even well into your 50′s."
You care way too much about what other people think. I rent and have never had someone frown upon me. I am getting close to 50.
BTW I don't think Germany is more affordable than Vancouver overall, although I guess that depends on what your income is there compared to what you were getting here.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 12:43 am 27
Hi guys, long time reader, first time poster. This article hits home. I am about a year away from becoming a journeyman electrician, once I get my ticket we're GONE! My wife and I (middle class) and 3 small children are getting the hell out of this province, maybe even out of the country. Not sure where we are going yet LOL but anywhere is better than Vancouver. I know many in my trade that are fleeing this city, can't be good for the economy, good luck Vancouver!
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November 2nd, 2011 at 12:45 am 28
"Vancouver was never a career mecca but up until a few years ago it was possible to survive in Vancouver on Vancouver wages."
Take out buying a house (which nobody has to do) and Vancouver is just as affordable as any second or third tier city.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 12:51 am 29
@Runawayscreaming:
"I feel I have been betrayed by my own government, which has facilitated the displacement of Vancouverites by using government policy (low interest rates and taxpayer-backed CMHC guarantees to reckless lenders) to fuel speculation in Vancouver."
Just curious where you are going to go where something similar hasn't happened? The policy is Canada wide and we know what happened in the US and parts of Europe. The low interest rate, easy credit housing bubble is a worldwide thing. It may be in different stages in other places but as far as betrayal by the government they are almost all guilty of this.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 12:57 am 30
bye bye – good luck with whatever wherever you are going to! Make space for others who want to move here!
While you are at the door, please take the occupyvancouver with you, what an eyesore!
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November 2nd, 2011 at 12:59 am 31
@scullboy:
Well I guess it’s time to come out of the closet and tell everyone I have left too. Not to become a homeowner again, which I don’t aspire to in the near future, but for better job opportunities and quality of life.
But I’ll keep following things, because as you say, it’s fascinating – in a repulsive sort of way, like Eraserhead.
I’ll put together a post on my new city shortly.
_______
Judging by your time stamps you are on the East Coast. Watch it out there – the snow storms can be wicked and the economy fragile.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 1:02 am 32
Almost half China's richest want to emigrate: survey
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/almost-half-chinas-riche…
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November 2nd, 2011 at 1:45 am 33
"Almost half China’s richest want to emigrate: survey"
patriotz already made one empty spot..he-he
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November 2nd, 2011 at 1:52 am 34
The same here.
Me and wife working full time and studyng non stop, household income is around 80k (after tax)… the same jobs payed 20 – 30 % more in other places and cost of living is less 20 – 30%, the result of this simple math? – moving scheduled for the spring/summer next year.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 2:04 am 35
@Anonymous: Is anybody actually excited about Rich people wanting to emigrate to Canada? Just what Vancouver needs: more lazy ass rich people with ill-gotten or questionable wealth.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 2:05 am 36
The feds are not curtailing immigration, only the mix of individuals. From the Globe
"Mr. Kenney has tabled his 2011 annual report and it shows Ottawa wants to accept between 240,000 and 265,000 newcomers in 2012."
This is similar to recent years.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 2:09 am 37
To all who are wants to leave, please stay. Our Premier Christy Clark had just raised the minimum wage by 75 cents so it will now take less thank a billion year to buy a crack shack in Vancouver.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 2:24 am 38
@people observer: Here is the G&M link.
Short version: increased intake for student migrants and fast track for PhDs and other skilled NPRs to permanent residency. Expected to increase provincial nominee program as well. Intake stays flat so some other classes will be hit. It will be interesting to see which ones. My guess is mostly family class, given they bolstered the extended stay visas earlier this year. I for one hope they scale back investor class as well.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 2:35 am 39
"fast track for PhDs and other skilled NPRs"
what for? to have the most educated cab drivers?
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November 2nd, 2011 at 2:38 am 40
doubtful that investor class will be scaled back. Unlike the other classes, the government obtains and interest free loan from this group.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 2:50 am 41
I have friends trying to immigrate here from the US. They are retired. I spent some time at VGH ER in March and the waiting room was full of elderly folks speaking other languages. I think this may be a looming issue for Vancouver/ BC moreso than other Canadian locales and I'd be interested to see the demographics. But between aging baby boomers and aging immigrants, I expect our health care system is going to be stressed/ drained quickly. Given the mass exodus of young and middle aged tax paying, health care providing professionals, the COV has some serious problems beyond the speculative housing mania moving front and center.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 3:05 am 42
@terminalcitygirl:
Inside scoop, Vancouver Coastal Health just sent all admin/physician staff an email last week saying there is no more capacity in Long Term Care facilities to accommodate the significant backlog of in-patients in hospitals. There is a high ratio of Long-Length-of-Stay patients stuck in acute care setting, waiting for long term care facility placement. Therefore, Vancouver Coastal Health is promoting this "Home First" initiative, stating "even if the patients qualify for long term care, the admin/physicians should still consider for patient to be discharged home first, with home care support resources placed in."
Unfortunately, there is no additional funding to community/home care. And there are elderly people who clearly need nursing-home level care to be safe.
This is the state of our current health care system. The baby-boomers are just hitting 65 this year, this is just the beginning…
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November 2nd, 2011 at 3:08 am 43
@Hu You Fullin: "to have the most educated cab drivers"
Unlikely, all will have Canadian experience. That's the point, as it's been a big complaint of businesses who find it difficult to verify foreign credentials/experience. This is in effect a "probationary" system instead of a "throw and see what sticks" system.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 3:20 am 44
@jesse "Unlikely, all will have Canadian experience"
Do you even know what the hell that even means? simple reason is there are NO god damn good paying, white/blue collar jobs in this city.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 3:24 am 45
"I’ve talked to people from other parts of Canada who say that sure, they wouldn’t mind living in Vancouver, but WTF is up with the property prices? That idea sure gets shelved in a hurry when they take a quick look at MLS!"
Nobody is ever forced to buy. Isn't that how the argument goes?
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November 2nd, 2011 at 3:37 am 46
@Hu You Fullin: "there are NO god damn good paying, white/blue collar jobs in this city"
I can tell you that Canadian/North American experience is important for many employers and the federal government is attempting to accommodate concerns raised by the business community. They have also announced more aggressively addressing the recognition foreign credentials, a long-standing complaint naturalized Canadians have had.
If you mean that wages are stagnant, hey, no argument, but it should be no surprise that worker terms are weak under a Conservative (and BC Liberal) government.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 3:38 am 47
42 VMD Says: "The baby-boomers are just hitting 65 this year, this is just the beginning…"
A different interpretation: earnings are strongly correlated to years in the workforce and, as you note, Boomers are just starting to reach the retirement age, which means "the vast bulk of the biggest demographic bump in history are still in the workforce contributing maximum levels of funding into the system." If it's screwed now that's 100% the result of government management, and it seems obvious to me this particular government has a philosophical bent towards looking the other way as it rots. They've been pumping the 'fix' in the mass media for years: privatization and immigration.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 3:39 am 48
Add me to the list of people seriously considering moving away. The prices in Vancouver now are insane. Its quite depressing as I have grown up in this city and love it, but I simply can't afford to take on the risk that paying 1M for a house and relying on ongoing record low interest rates for the next 20 years requires.
As well, the business economy in Vancouver sucks and is getting worse not better. Do some research and look at how many major head offices have LEFT Vancouver in the last 10 years (mostly from being bought and HQ moved). We don't have many high paying private sector corporate jobs left in this town, and a few land developers, real estate agents, and pot growers aren't going to fill in that gap. Right now it appears that a lot of these places where I live are being bought with overseas money, but how is that creating a sustainable real-estate market?
Its sad, but it appears my next home will be Toronto. It sucks, but at least they have high paying jobs to go along with their real estate prices.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 3:40 am 49
@Anonymouse: "Nobody is ever forced to buy"
Many want to own for personal/family reasons and have decided to pay large premiums for the privilege of ownership. That's their choice and I agree — it's a choice.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 3:47 am 50
@Jesse: "I can tell you that Canadian/North American experience"
But explain to us what that means? How do you get Canadian experience in the first place? Could you get Canadian experience by working all your life in Asia?
It is propaganda by corporate oligarchs to keep already stagnant wages depressed. simple as that.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 3:58 am 51
I agree with everyone who thinks that leaving is a good idea. But leaving Vancouver is not so hard. just move to Surrey. Housing costs 50% less there and new business formation there is many multiples that of Vancouver. It is also growing faster than Vancouver. It will eventually be the most important city in the province. It is also closer to the USA. Just get a nexus card and get cheap American gas all the time.
Surrey's slogan is "the future lives here". That is the truth.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 4:36 am 52
@Anonymouse: Yes, the argument goes because it is not obvious to 99% of the people.
Even so, at some point most will consider buying. If Vancouver prices are so high, and "there is no bubble" as we're told everywhere, the average person cannot conceive how they will ever be able to buy. So it is a major part of their decision.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 4:42 am 53
@jesse:
I don't understand what this means… would wages not be stagnant under an NDP government?
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November 2nd, 2011 at 4:44 am 54
Stats out http://www.rebgv.org/sites/default/files/REBGV_St…
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November 2nd, 2011 at 4:46 am 55
@Devore: "would wages not be stagnant under an NDP government"
Dunno, my guess is that a return to full employment takes a bit longer with "business-friendly" governments to keep wage inflation low.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 4:56 am 56
@Jesse : "You accept significantly lower pay for the experience."
bingo. corporate oligarchs scare local labour with immigrant lower pay, and at same time keep immigrants on tight leash with "canadian experience"..welcome to neo-feudalism
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November 2nd, 2011 at 4:59 am 57
@Dave: "patriotz: Right on schedule. I thought a number of you would capitulate this Fall."
LOL
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November 2nd, 2011 at 5:04 am 58
@jesse: More evidence that the property ladder now has missing rungs.
If you bought a condo apartment 10 years ago, your appreciation has been roughly the same as SFH.
But something happened about 5 years ago. If you bought an average condo apartment 5 years ago, your appreciation is only 20% while an average SFH has gone up 36%.
That difference has now grown to the point where, in the last year, SFH has gone up over three times faster than condo apartments, 11% vs 3%. In COV, its actually more like ten times.
The dream of moving up from condo to SFH is dead, unless you want to move way out into the burbs.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 5:10 am 59
@Dave.: Patriotz bought a house in Vancouver? That's what 'capitulate' means in context of a housing bear right?
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November 2nd, 2011 at 5:11 am 60
@jesse: That reminds me of a little local tech company I worked for a few years ago. The mostly immigrant workers were lured through a federal government program and the employers promised training in the field while they were employed.
I learned that most of them never did anything other than billing support and customer service. Basically, getting yelled at. The promised training rarely materialized, but the employer got subsidized employees.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 5:14 am 61
@46 jesse: From the article:
"Mr. Kenney has tabled his 2011 annual report and it shows Ottawa wants to accept between 240,000 and 265,000 newcomers in 2012…. in keeping with the annual average of 254,000 over the past few years.
Ministerial weasel words again. Actual numbers here:
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/statistics…
As the bottom graph makes painfully obvious, immigration has ramped up consistently since the atypical bulge in the mid-Nineties caused by the flight from Hong Kong.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 5:18 am 62
"Right on schedule. I thought a number of you would capitulate this Fall."
Dave predicting the past again. Good for you, Cpt. Hindsight.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 5:44 am 63
@Patiently Waiting: "The promised training rarely materialized, but the employer got subsidized employees."
Yeah I've seen that first-hand in a previous life. The government doesn't know how to handle the details so will throw money at the wall and hope some of it sticks.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 5:49 am 64
It's undeniable that Vancouver premium real estate market (West side, East side, Burnaby, Richmond, West Van) has a lot more to do with the China market than the local Canadian market.
Here is a piece of news that is very relevant. Before showing you the news, just want to let you know that the Month of Inventory on the West side went up to 8 months of inventory in Sept and slipped back down to 6.7 in Oct. It's not a coincidence, IMO, that market has stablized recently.
Check out this news.
<a href="http://translate.google.ca/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2 Fwww.mpfinance.com%2Fhtm%2FFinance%2F20111103%2FNews%2Fea_eaa1.htm&act=url” target=”_blank”>http://translate.google.ca/translate?sl=auto&…” target=”_blank”>Fwww.mpfinance.com%2Fhtm%2FFinance%2F20111103%2FNews%2Fea_eaa1.htm&act=url
Those still longing for a crash in Van West maybe in for a shock if those easy money from China gets re-ignited from the latest policy change.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 5:57 am 65
BTW, the translation really sucks. Here are the main points.
- Wen Jia Bao hinted of loosening of the current monetary tigherning policy
- Several banks in Beijing initiating contact with property developers in accepting 2nd mortgage application after months of inactivities
- Beijing is seen as a precursor to a policy change for the entire country
- There will be 650B Yuan (about 100B CAD) new loans in the next months.
Last point is very important, IMO. 100B CAD new loans for the next 2 months!!! Again, please don't shoot the messenger. I am just bringing you this latest policy change news. I believe my comment about the West side being re-ignited by this latest policy change is not unfounded.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 6:02 am 66
@jesse "The government doesn’t know how to handle the details so will throw money at the wall and hope some of it sticks."
he-he. don't be naive. Government is in the oligarch's pockets. corrupt & incompetent government is just the symptom of corporate oligarch's power in the present system.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 6:14 am 67
@rksleung: This doesn't bother me in the least. Let the Chinese have the West Side, Richmond, West Vancouver. Those areas will just suck a lot more than they do right now. They're good at making luxury cars less desirable, and buying knock off goods and prancing around with Holt Renfrew shopping bags….with their lunches in them. At least Indian food tastes good….
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November 2nd, 2011 at 6:17 am 68
@WFT?:
"But leaving Vancouver is not so hard. just move to Surrey. Housing costs 50% less there and new business formation there is many multiples that of Vancouver."
As I've already said, when people talk about leaving, they mean leaving the metro entirely, not the CoV. And remember when we talk about houses costing 10x household income, that's for the WHOLE metro. The suburbs are not affordable. And the fact that Surrey is seeing an increase in the same crap jobs as in the centre is not going to change that.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 6:23 am 69
@Call em as I see em:
"The policy is Canada wide and we know what happened in the US and parts of Europe. The low interest rate, easy credit housing bubble is a worldwide thing."
No it's not. There was no bubble in Germany, in spite of the country having the same currency and the same interest rates as Ireland or Spain. That's because Germany has long had policies to discourage RE speculation, namely very tight rules on mortgage financing and a tax on speculation.
Its works there and it would work here. But the Germans have the quaint idea that long term prosperity depends on making quality goods that the world wants, and we've given up on that.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 6:34 am 70
@rksleung: I think you're misunderstanding what Beijing is doing. They have no choice but to reignite loans in the housing sector because the economy collapses if they don't. Many of these new loans are going towards covering payments on old ones. It's textbook Ponzi now, no turning back.
The more they delay the more painful and prolonged the correction. And yes it could take a few more years. Note that increasing loan amounts does not necessarily bode well for prices, they could follow a similar trajectory to the US, with prices peaking 2-3 years before TSHTF. I wouldn't be surprised to see a similar chain unfold now, though I admit it may be another 1-2 years of high prices.
And don't shoot me either, I'm just calling it like I see it; I even pretended I was a Realtor for a while looking for a positive in what the politburo could do to sustain the "Chinese miracle". I couldn't find anything.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 6:53 am 71
Hong Kong home sales fall over 50% in October.
http://www.shanghaidaily.com/article/?id=486448&a…
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November 2nd, 2011 at 7:07 am 72
@Anonymous: I never cared for West Van or Richmond, but the Westside had a certain charm back in the day.
As for luxury cars, I'm shocked at how many Maserti's, Jags, and Lotuses I see around North Road these days. Along with huge numbers of BMWs, Mercedes-Benz etc. For a middle class area (some would say working class), its just plain weird. Is this real money or debt?
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November 2nd, 2011 at 7:15 am 73
As for luxury cars, I’m shocked at how many Maserti’s, Jags, and Lotuses I see around North Road these days. Along with huge numbers of BMWs, Mercedes-Benz etc. For a middle class area (some would say working class), its just plain weird. Is this real money or debt?
_________
"Real money" – HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH – so clueless….
Yes, its "real" money – that is money stolen, embezzled, and transferred from the corrupt regime of China…
I love how people think that you can legitimately become a "millionaire" in China, in a communist regime. If we started to get "millionaires" coming in from Cuba or North Korea, we would all question how they got their wealth in a communist regime built on equality. But heh, if a mainland Chinese millionaire comes in, no questions asked. So clueless…
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November 2nd, 2011 at 7:29 am 74
Ahhhahahahaha: "I love how people think that you can legitimately become a “millionaire” in China, in a communist regime"
Why not? If you bought 2-3 apartments 10 years ago in Beijing and sold today you would be millionaire. Same as in Vancouver. Not much difference in the political system there from here – corporate kleptocracy in both.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 7:42 am 75
"Why not? If you bought 2-3 apartments 10 years ago in Beijing and sold today you would be millionaire."
_____
Of course, how is that one person was able to access the capital 10 years ago to buy those apartment buildings in such an egalitarian regime? Hmmmmm…….
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November 2nd, 2011 at 7:48 am 76
Peetypan: "Of course, how is that one person was able to access the capital 10 years ago to buy those apartment buildings in such an egalitarian regime? Hmmmmm……."
Do you think they only traded in rice 10 years ago?? Where do you get your info? trusted sources like Vancouver Sun or Global? hmm
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November 2nd, 2011 at 7:50 am 77
Vancouver home inspector Ed Witzke strikes again!
http://www.straight.com/article-519806/vancouver/…
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November 2nd, 2011 at 7:54 am 78
@katherine with a k:
It's one of the many reasons why German is so strong economically.
They don't encourage speculation. They instead encourage education,
manufacturing, innovation, exporting.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 8:02 am 79
@Ahhhahahahaha: How do you define legitimate? Is the Wall Street/Bay Street crowd legitimate?
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November 2nd, 2011 at 8:05 am 80
@Ahhhahahahaha:
"I love how people think that you can legitimately become a “millionaire” in China, in a communist regime. "
If it was a simple as you try and make it China could just arrest anybody with wealth exceeding a certain threshold. Obviously there are legitimate ways of becoming wealthy there, communist regime or not.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 8:24 am 81
@Anonymous:
"prancing around with Holt Renfrew shopping bags….with their lunches in them."
so true, I see them every day at the core downtown. And for cars… also true, they entirely ruined any sense of having some upscale ride in this city. It is literally like casting pearls before swine by all means.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 8:28 am 82
@kansai92:
"It’s one of the many reasons why German is so strong economically.
They don’t encourage speculation. They instead encourage education,
manufacturing, innovation, exporting."
Germany has had one budget surplus in the last 15 years. It's debt to GDP is now over 80% compared with about 60% just a couple years ago. And it's population growth rate actually turned negative last year.
Germany is 'strong' economically in a neighbourhood that is going from weak to calamitous.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 8:33 am 83
@chip:
How do you say it.. it's the best looking house in a bad neighborhood.
These days everything is relative. Fact that they are the only country in the Eurozone capable of bailing out the PIGS says a lot.
I tend to key on more on things like debt-to-income at the consumer level.
Consumer spending is 2/3rds of the economy.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 9:00 am 84
@chip:
On an absolute basis Germany has the largest trade surplus in the world, and per capita it's over 10 times that of China. That's without its own currency to manipulate. I agree that it has a government debt problem, but that's money borrowed from Germans, not foreigners. As for the declining population, that nothing a few hundred thousand unemployed Spaniards and Greeks can't fix, once their governments run out of money to pay them to stay put.
http://www.economist.com/node/21534855
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November 2nd, 2011 at 9:38 am 85
@Patiently Waiting: Well, north road near lougheed is Korean town right.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 9:48 am 86
Add me to the list of people who left Vancouver. I graduated with a doctorate and fled as soon as I was done. Never even thought of interviewing in Vancouver.
Cost of living was a big factor, but condo-crazyness has also affected the rest of the city. There are way fewer restaurants and stores in Vancouver per capita, compared to other cities. Nice places get shut down to build more condos, and the people who move into the new shiny condos don't have enough money left over after payments to afford to eat out much anyways.
I think Vancouver has a new form of "Duch Disease", but instead of oil wealth crowding out manufacturing, condo wealth is crowding out other land uses – and basically all economic activity requires space!
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November 2nd, 2011 at 9:52 am 87
REBGV October Stats Package.
Interesting finding: the benchmark price is lower than the 3 month average in most areas. The following numbers are the percentage change for Detached homes only.
Detached -0.576%
Burnaby -2.623%
Coquitlam -1.041%
South Delta -0.072%
Maple Ridge -1.178%
New Westminster 2.571%
North Vancouver -1.306%
Pitt Meadows 2.180%
Port Coquitlam -6.004%
Port Moody -2.205%
Richmond -0.895%
Squamish 0.773%
Sunshine Coast 0.396%
Vancouver East 1.877%
Vancouver West 0.387%
West Vancouver -1.702%
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November 2nd, 2011 at 9:59 am 88
Well, hopefully she at least got to see the Great Wall.
"Premier Christy Clark sets off for her first Asian trade mission this week amid fresh signs that the power of China’s markets to act as a catalyst for the B.C. economy is weakening."
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/brit…
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November 2nd, 2011 at 10:03 am 89
Anonymouse,
Family member is working with a new hire who is family has relocated from mainland China. Without a hint of scruples, over the last few weeks the new hire has explained that his father was a manager of some facility, and that position came with use of two dwellings on the grounds. The family sold the houses, WHICH DID NOT BELONG TO THEM, took the proceeds and moved to Canada.
I'm sure it is an isolated incident.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 10:05 am 90
Apparently not so isolated.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,207…
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November 2nd, 2011 at 10:06 am 91
@Patiently Waiting:
Wonderful, let's hitch our economic wagon to a corrupt and flaky totalitarian shithole that could blow up tomorrow.
Well done, Krusty. Try not to beg too much.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 10:20 am 92
“Premier Christy Clark sets off for her first Asian trade mission this week amid fresh signs that the power of China’s markets to act as a catalyst for the B.C. economy is weakening.”
She'll also be saying, "Wha' happened?" when she gets ditched by BC voters.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 10:23 am 93
“Duch Disease"
"condo-crazyness"
Next stop, Spelin' Skool.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 10:24 am 94
@jesse:
Benchmark Price
Greater Van
2011-10: 622,955 <= drop of ~8k from June all-time-high
2011-09: 627,994
2011-08: 625,578
2011-07: 630,251
2011-06: 630,921
Van West SFH
2011-10: 2008,702 <= drop of ~60k (3%) from June all-time-high
2011-09: 2030,720
2011-08: 1963,426
2011-07: 2044,344
2011-06: 2068,857
Burnaby SFH
2011-10: 897,477 <= drop of ~52k (5.5%) from Sept all-time-high
2011-09: 949,389
Richmond SFH
2011-10: 1075,391 <= drop of ~47k (4%) from May all-time high
2011-09: 1077,967
2011-06: 1122,112
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November 2nd, 2011 at 10:37 am 95
@Anonymous:
"I’m sure it is an isolated incident."
No evidence, then – as I thought. Just a generalization of 1.3bn people based on a single anecdote. Carry on.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 10:53 am 96
"No evidence, then – as I thought. Just a generalization of 1.3bn people based on a single anecdote. Carry on"
You obviously did not bother to read the following comment. Let me help you.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,207…
120 billion dollars. But perhaps Time magazine is also guilty of generalization.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 11:00 am 97
"The family sold the houses, WHICH DID NOT BELONG TO THEM, took the proceeds and moved to Canada."
over here we just open business on wall street and steal money directly from customer accounts and then declare Chapter 11 aka Corzini mafioso style.
you see no selling involved , no running away to Canada…maybe even gets nominated for Governor again
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November 2nd, 2011 at 11:04 am 98
@Anonymous: Great article that pretty much sums up why there are a bunch of twentysomething Chinese douchebags driving around in 100k dollar cars. No respect for time or money…..and these are the people that our government is suck-holing. 'Oh, please com to our underfunded Universities, crowd out actual Canadian students….'
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November 2nd, 2011 at 11:11 am 99
@Anonymous:
"You obviously did not bother to read the following comment"
Look. I'm not disputing that corruption in China exists. I simply disagree with the claims that any Asian you see driving a luxury car is some sort of criminal.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 11:16 am 100
Its true. Corruption and scamming is the norm in China. In fact the rule. It starts at the Gov't and trickles down to the people. No one makes an effort to even deny this.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 11:17 am 101
@Anonymouse: When they're 18, that level of profligate spending is from ill-gotten gains. Period. Rich people who actually earned their money, know what it takes to make that kind of dough. They tend to care how their hard earned money us spent. When you basically get it for free….you blow it. Take a look at what happens to the majority of lottery winners.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 11:18 am 102
"over here we just open business on wall street and steal money directly from customer accounts and then declare Chapter 11 aka Corzini mafioso style.
you see no selling involved , no running away to Canada…maybe even gets nominated for Governor again"
The fact that this is front page news is a testiment to how rare it is. In China this happens everyday. Things will end very badly for China one way or the other.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 11:21 am 103
@Anonymous:
You should fire a new hire. Once a thief, always a thief.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 11:24 am 104
I was in China recently, touring a mine that my company purchased. Everything we ate was either cooked with pork fat or made from pork. They loved pork. On my way back to the hotel we passed through what was obviously a pig farm/slaughterhouse, and I saw two pigs that were the size of grizzly bears. I was f*cking amazed. When I asked my cab driver, he said they jack these things full of Growth Hormone to make them into monsters. It was other-worldly and totally disturbing. I lost 7 pounds on that trip.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 11:26 am 105
New Listings 189
Price Changes 110
Sold Listings 120
New REBGV stats release: http://www.laurenandpaul.ca/MonthlyStatsRelease.u…
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November 2nd, 2011 at 11:29 am 106
November 2011 month-end projections
Days elapsed so far 2
Days missing 0
Days remaining 19
5 Day Moving Average: Sales 108
5 Day Moving Average: Listings 171
SALES
Sales so far 236
Projection for rest of month (using 5day MA) 2048
Projected month end total 2284 +/- 283
NEW LISTINGS
Listings so far 418
Projection for rest of month (using 5day MA) 3253
Projected month end total 3671 +/- 815
Sell-list so far 56.5%
Projected month-end sell-list 62.2%
MONTHS OF INVENTORY
Inventory as of October 31, 2011 15377
MoI at this sales pace 6.73
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November 2nd, 2011 at 11:31 am 107
@patriotz:
"There was no bubble in Germany"
Okay so lets forget about the other 90% of the world that did have a bubble. There was also no bubble in Texas either.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 11:37 am 108
McLovin "The fact that this is front page news is a testiment to how rare it is"
ha-ha, another "useful idiot" brainwashed by corporate oligarchs.
and occupy wall street folks are camping just because of dope and good chicks..hehe useful idiot
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November 2nd, 2011 at 11:37 am 109
@patriotz:
"Its works there and it would work here. But the Germans have the quaint idea that long term prosperity depends on making quality goods that the world wants, and we’ve given up on that."
Remember it was the Germans who joined up with Club Med (Greece, Spain, etc) and it will be the Germans who will pay for all their problems. After all is said and done Canada will be in much better shape overall than Germany.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 11:38 am 110
@Call em as I see em:
And all those goods Germans export where bought by Club Med with money they didn't have.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 11:42 am 111
@Anonymous:
>>>When they’re 18, that level of profligate spending is from ill-gotten gains. Period.<<<
That's very true, immigrants buying $100K cars for their kids is the behavior one would expect from drug dealers or other criminal types.
This is absolutely money stolen from ordinary Chinese citizens.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 11:42 am 112
Bank of Canada Governor Mark Carney said today he isn’t complacent about the level of household debt in Canada or the state of the country’s housing market.
Carney Says He’s Not Complacent on Canada Personal Debt, Housing
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November 2nd, 2011 at 11:47 am 113
@VMD: Inventory and sales along lines I told you. Paulb. estimates ~1k higher inventory and sales about the same as rebgv figures
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November 2nd, 2011 at 12:01 pm 114
@ReadyToPop: Here is Carney's actual quote: http://ca.reuters.com/article/businessNews/idCATR…
They aren't "complacent" about it, meaning they aren't "happy" I think. I'm still maintaining my position that the government will announce some form of tighter lending requirements in the new year. Right now there's no point because market activity is subdued compared to the spring.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 12:05 pm 115
@jesse: IIRC, Paulb includes raw land in his inventory count; that's not included in the REBGV monthly report.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 12:05 pm 116
Vancouver is set to become an international Banking Center…You Doomsters are morons..You really don't get do you.
http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2011/09/old-stock-exch…
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November 2nd, 2011 at 12:06 pm 117
@Hu You Fullin: “How do you get Canadian experience in the first place?”
You accept significantly lower pay for the experience. I don’t disagree that in many cases it is unfair, in other cases I’ve found the stated experience isn’t a good fit — it often comes out in cognitive portion of interview where stated skills and expertise don’t match up with what we inferred from the resume. This is not just an immigrant thing BTW. I wish it were different because many higher-skilled positions have a dearth of “good” people (and not just in Vancouver).
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November 2nd, 2011 at 12:15 pm 118
@annonymous:
**Vancouver is set to become an international Banking Center…You Doomsters are morons..You really don’t get do you.**
LOL! Credit Suisse adds some floorspace to a tower downtown and now we`re a global banking center? This is the problem with Vancouver: a 3 dressed up as a 9 and all the local douchebags wanna sleep with her. Clearly, you've never been to a global banking center and wouldn't know one if it was staring you on the face.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 12:30 pm 119
@jesse
With an average household debt that's 150.8 per cent of personal disposable income, and the IMF breathing down their neck…..I agree with you. Something is bound to be in the pipe policy wise.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 12:31 pm 120
It’s not normal that you can sell a condo in Vancouver and with the profit buy a 5 acres piece of land and built a house somewhere else in Canada. We moved to the Eastern Township of Quebec, 75 min. from Mtl, it’s not like we moved to some third world country, despite what your opinion is on QC. And that we were both willing to quit our job to do so, again not normal.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 12:36 pm 121
@patriotz:
Right on schedule. I thought a number of you would capitulate this Fall.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 1:08 pm 122
@ Anonymous
Ha Ha…You don't get out much do you…should leave your parents
basement every now and then.You haven't got a clue.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 1:14 pm 123
regarding the debt held by the banksters
[Greek general] Themistocles had a problem raising taxes from an island called Andros, and told them he had two great gods to aid him, Peitho (Persuasion) and Ananke (Necessity), and that the Andrians must therefore pay up. The Andrians replied: “We have two unserviceable gods who never quit our island; namely, Penia (Poverty) and Amekhania (Helplessness). Since we are in the hands of these gods, we will give no money. Your power can never be stronger than our inability.”
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November 2nd, 2011 at 1:19 pm 124
I have to wonder where these people are moving to. If the biggest problem Vancouver has is high house prices then life is pretty good (even if, like me, buying a house within 30mins of downtown is a pipe dream). Try living in the USA just now, or Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal, the UK, Ireland….
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November 2nd, 2011 at 1:22 pm 125
Vancouver is now an Asian City…That's just the way it is..and that won't change anytime soon if ever..Prices may be flat but no one with a brain is projecting an all out crash.
http://business.blogs.cnn.com/2011/11/01/report-h…
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November 2nd, 2011 at 1:26 pm 126
@patrick: "Try living in the USA just now, or Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal, the UK, Ireland…."
but that is our problem. we see our future..right there..and is not pretty.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 1:31 pm 127
FREDERICTON – New Brunswick has halted all applications under a Chinese immigration pilot project following an internal review of the province's nominee program.
N.B. stops accepting immigration applicants from China following review
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November 2nd, 2011 at 1:33 pm 128
I can empathize with the sentiment here. I'm myself entertaining the idea of leaving. I guess me and my wife are slightly in a different position though, while we could technically afford to buy a house in Vancouver I can't help to look at, well basically everywhere else in the world, and see how much less we'd end up spending on housing and how much more we'd get.
The rents in Vancouver aren't very high compared to many other cities we'd be thinking of moving to but I'd be hesitant to start a family in this town due to the risk of having the rented dwelling sold and us being forced to house-hop around.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 1:43 pm 129
@annonymous: In regards to the BNN srticle: If I lived in that sh*thole of a country and had even a shred of hope and 10 bucks, I'd be dreaming of getting out, too. I agree, Vancouver is a 'CHINESE' city, lest we offend the other Asians. You know, the ones that come from countries with advanced economies and who desperately do not want to be lumped in there with the white collar criminal scumbags that want to hide here.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 1:47 pm 130
@Anonymous: "You know, the ones that come from countries with advanced economies and who desperately do not want to be lumped in there with the white collar criminal scumbags that want to hide here."
So you mean Mainland China, right? Not Taiwan, Singapore, or Hong Kong, three advanced economies.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 1:52 pm 131
By the way folks this is a "Vancouver Housing Crash" Site…Anyone who doesn't believe Vancouver housing prices are going back to the 1970's is not welcome..just a little heads up..Cheers.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 2:19 pm 132
Could all you lot with variations of spelling of the name anonymous, spend a few seconds coming up with an original name. It would make things easier to follow. Just sayin.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 2:27 pm 133
This explains the Vancouver Real Estate bubble:
http://www.creditwritedowns.com/2011/11/sixty-per…
Wealthy Chinese are leaving in droves and for 37%, Canada is the destination. Of those that leave, 50% invest in real estate.
This is driving costs through the roof and taking its toll on the fabric of our society….
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November 2nd, 2011 at 3:41 pm 134
@Starting to make sense: It may explain all the high-performance luxury cars, but not our real estate prices.
Look at the savings rates and debt levels of BC residents. Look at all the people with average salaries who own multiple properties. Listen to the warnings from Carney (even if they are hollow).
HAM is still just a diversion from the truth.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 3:59 pm 135
@Patiently Waiting: "HAM is still just a diversion from the truth"
Never let logical analysis and data get in the way of a good argument.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 4:55 pm 136
If it was a simple as you try and make it China could just arrest anybody with wealth exceeding a certain threshold. Obviously there are legitimate ways of becoming wealthy there, communist regime or not.
___________
Why would the communist officials arrest their own kind and their cronies? It’s the officials, former officials, relatives and cronies that have been given access to land, loans, patents, etc which facilitate wealth generation. Of course, all those mid-level “state” company execs coming here sure didn’t earn their millions from their normal salaries – its called embezzlement.
By the way, the flight of corrupt capital out of China suits their purposes. They get rid of the scum. We of course open our arms wide and grant citizenship to China’s corrupt.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 5:34 pm 137
@Peetypan:
“Of course, all those mid-level “state” company execs coming here sure didn’t earn their millions from their normal salaries ”
Are you able to support a word you say with some kind of evidence? Thought not.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 6:38 pm 138
@Call em as I see em:
"There was also no bubble in Texas either."
Thanks for bringing that up. There are reasons for that too. How about a property tax rate of around 2.5% for starters. What would that be on a million dollar house?
http://www.davedowns.com/propertytaxes.htm
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November 2nd, 2011 at 7:31 pm 139
MEanwhile our Premier is in Asia to raise the profile of BC and attract investment.
I hope she will tell them what we want is for them to buy things we produce, like we do for China, not to come and buy us out- land, housing, oil wells, gas wells etc. That's what they are doing in South America too with agricultural land in Brazil and Argentina and the locals are starting to object.
Wonder if we will ever object or just keep sending our premiers on begging trips until there is nothing left to sell.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 10:20 pm 140
@patriotz:
Have you, 'patriotz', really left Vancouver?
If so, all the best with future endeavours.
We've appreciated your comments/analysis over the years.
http://wp.me/pcq1o-3dV
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November 3rd, 2011 at 12:12 am 141
@vreaa: That's good news! For Vancouver.
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November 3rd, 2011 at 12:31 am 142
@Anonymous: So you have people who are lucky into to be born into family with money, regardless of how it is made since they weren't involved in it, but got spoiled rotten with it, just like a lot of rich kids everywhere in the world. Then you have Canada government/universities and business who clamor for their money, make special leeway for them (do anyone here seriously believe these people can actually get 90% average to get into UBC Science or Commerce when they can barely write an acceptable essay?), etc.
So whose worse? The ones lucky enough to be born into the right family? Or the ones who ignore their principles and morals for the sake of money?
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November 3rd, 2011 at 12:34 am 143
@Anonymous: I can only hope these spoiled 2nd gen rich kids end up on the streets homeless before they are 30. Unfortunately that's unlikely to happen as their parents generally have enough connections and money to get them at least a cushy mid-level management jobs right out of university, leeching of the hard labors of those who actually have to work hard to get where they are and feed their family.
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November 3rd, 2011 at 12:43 am 144
@Anonymous: have is it occur to you that China is that those things because those are the only things they want to buy from you? You can't force people to buy your crap if they don't want to, unless you do it the British way, create millions of drug addicts and when the local government objects and bans the drug, send in the army. I guess Christy can do the same thing with world's best BC pot? Though I don't think Canada has the same ability as the British to put the boots on the ground when Chinese government bans it.
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November 3rd, 2011 at 1:08 am 145
@patrick:
Try living in the USA? Have you been to Seattle? Bigger salaries and way cheaper houses. They have the head offices of Microsoft, amazon, Starbucks, Costco, Boeing.
How about that as an alternative to Vancouver just to pic the closed large city to us.
Basically any other city in north America is a better financial situation than staying in the "mist speculative place on earth".
You talk as If the USA is a third world
Country. Last month I visited
Las Vegas, LA and Portland Oregon. All very nice places to live.
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November 3rd, 2011 at 1:18 am 146
@WFT?: My brother left Vancouver (sold his POS house in Pemberton Heights for a cool million) to join a prestigious Asset Management company in Seattle. His salary doubled. Access to the best medical one could ever need. He bought a beautiful 4500 sq ft house in Bellevue for ~650k.
Yes, life is better in the US for educated Canadians. Much, much better.
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November 3rd, 2011 at 1:44 am 147
Anyone catch CBC radio's story on candidates' views on affordable housing this morning? I caught some of it, was pretty much the same old, same old-candidates saying they had plans for dealing with the lack of affordable housing for young professionals in the city-nothing concrete, I'm sure nothing would ever come of it, for some reason policies on providing for the homeless (do they even vote?) gets more airtime than a problem of unaffordable housing for young families who make decent incomes. Odd, when you think of it. Anyway, one quote caught my attention (I think it was just the reporter summarizing what he felt)-that young professionals should give up on the dream of owning a house in Vancouver, that "it's not going to be like the 1970s anymore, where one can buy a house in Vancouver with a professional income". Umm…1970s?? Try 2001! It wasn't THAT long ago that people actually DID manage to buy houses in Vancouver on regular median incomes (without a tenant even). I might email CBC radio and point this out-this is a bubble pure and simple and it's only been seriously unaffordable for a relatively short period of time, not like, 30 years. Too bad people are leaving the city, but who can blame them?
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November 3rd, 2011 at 2:02 am 148
@pricedoutfornow: I saw Anton on TV the other day saying let the developers have their way on everything and the savings will trickle down to the peasants. I know Mayor Moonbeam is far from perfect, but it looks like Vancouver can do far worse.
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November 3rd, 2011 at 2:03 am 149
US? No thanks. They are foreclosed country with dysfunctional politics and deindustrialized economy and highest inequality gap in the world. One word: 3rd world.
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November 3rd, 2011 at 2:10 am 150
What $500K gets you around Metro Vancouver
http://www.driving.ca/vancouversun/Photos+What+wi…
Seriously with the prevalence of all the house porn on HGTV, House Hunters, House Hunters International, My First Place, Love It or List It, Income Properties, and a whole host of similar shows that are shot in Ont and US, do people not see what a rip-off Vancouver housing price is? Or are people to tapped out to subscribe to HGTV and don't watch any of their shows online?
Heck, some downtown condos are at or exceeding the price levels per sq ft of NY! Granted our prices might sound cheaper since our condos are tiny!
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November 3rd, 2011 at 2:15 am 151
Corruption in America continue…
"When last week we reported about the scandal of outgoing Freddie Mac CEO Ed Haldeman receiving at least $3.9 million as a reward for his two year tenure at the top of the insolvent and nationalized housing entity, we said: "As the chart below demonstrates, the total "draws" received under Haldeman's tenure amounts to $14.5 billion. This excludes the Q3 number which will be made clear next week. Something tells us with this abrupt departure, the number may be higher to quite higher than expected." As usual: when in doubt, be cynical, and be skeptical, and you will be right. Today, Freddie just reported that its Q3 draw, or required quarterly bailout amount from the Treasury, was $6 billion: the highest since Q1 2010, as a result of a massive loss of $4.4 billion. This means that during his tenure which ended just after the completin of Q3, Freddie has been "rewarded" with $20.5 billion in taxpayer capital merely to keep the zombie entity in operation! And for this, Ed gets $4 milliom."
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November 3rd, 2011 at 2:15 am 152
142 space889 Says:"So whose (sic) worse?"
Those who reason in false dichotomies and dilemmas.
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November 3rd, 2011 at 2:20 am 153
Friend of mine moved to a Kelowna 2 years ago, I called him up recently and he said it was best decision he ever made.
I have an apartment in Coquitlam, which I bough a while ago, and wanting to grow a family and move into a house. I like sunny weather and dry climate, and been considering to move to Calgary or Kelowna. When I mentioned an idea of moving to Kelowna, in not too distant future, to my wife she went ballistic and was ready to pack suitcases
)
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November 3rd, 2011 at 2:28 am 154
"When I mentioned an idea of moving to Kelowna, in not too distant future, to my wife she went ballistic and was ready to pack suitcases"
you should say: "Honey,in Kelowna we could afford to have many babies" It always works.
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November 3rd, 2011 at 2:55 am 155
I commuted from Westbank to Vancouver for a couple of years (M-Th) then home on the weekends. I flew Westjet sometimes when I got sick of the drive, or the weather on the Coq was poor. Unfortunately, home prices in Kelowna are inflated as well, and it would probably be a wash to do it now. However, if the MOI stays high in Kelowna as it has done, prices will continue their steady march downhill and it may become economical to do it again.
Nobody can argue that Kelowna is far superior to Vancouver when it comes to weather all year round. In actual fact, I think it's superior for recreation. The lakes, great climbing at Skaha, wineries, Big White kicks Whistler's ass for snow quality and for access. Also, it's not unrealistic to drive to Rossland if you want epic snow, more double blacks than you can shake a stick at, and a very cool local vibe. Not to mention great local skiers, and none of the pretentious turds that hang out in Whistler. Not to mention, no 'nouveau riche' tourists with all the latest swag that can't link a single turn…..
I would argue that BC has elements of the BPOE, it's just that none of them are anywhere near Vancouver.
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November 3rd, 2011 at 3:19 am 156
@SunBlaster: "she went ballistic and was ready to pack suitcases"
Not sure how to read that…
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November 3rd, 2011 at 3:21 am 157
"One word: 3rd world"
That's two.
I worked in San Francisco for a year. Lived in Marin but spent a lot of time in the city. For convenience I got in the habit of keeping my golf clubs, rugby gear, change of clothes etc in the car. I routinely parked on the street overnight downtown. Not once was I broken into, nor was anybody I knew broken into. Neglected to change habits when I returned to Van and moved into a Cambie area rental house. Care to guess how long my golf clubs lasted?
You have no idea what you are talking about.
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November 3rd, 2011 at 3:43 am 158
@vAnonymou
just wait when 50 million of desperate souls run out of food stamps in US. Then you will loose your head not just golf clubs.
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November 3rd, 2011 at 4:20 am 159
@Hu You Fullin:
Are you suggesting that we already have too many starving people wandering Vancouver's streets?
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November 3rd, 2011 at 5:31 am 160
You Doomsters are not looking at the big picture…The Chinese are looking 20-30 years out…Vancouver and Canada are looking pretty good as we get more and more Weather extremes…
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/apnewsbreak-global-warmi…
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November 3rd, 2011 at 5:47 am 161
Lol..Kelowna?! Great place if you want to deal with Thugs and Bikers every where you go..Last post by the way.. this site is too much of a Moaning and Groaning Circle Jerk for me…
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November 3rd, 2011 at 5:55 am 162
@Lisa:
"….highest inequality gap in the world…."
The gap is greater in Canada.
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November 3rd, 2011 at 5:57 am 163
@b5baxter:
Oops my mistake. The US is still greater than Canada. But the gap is growing faster in Canada than the US.
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November 3rd, 2011 at 6:17 am 164
@DEFAULT NAME:
"I worked in San Francisco for a year. Lived in Marin but spent a lot of time in the city. For convenience I got in the habit of keeping my golf clubs, rugby gear, change of clothes etc in the car. I routinely parked on the street overnight downtown. Not once was I broken into, nor was anybody I knew broken into. Neglected to change habits when I returned to Van and moved into a Cambie area rental house. Care to guess how long my golf clubs lasted?"
In Vancouver it is not uncommon to have your vehicle broken into for something as "valuable" as an empty pop can. Point out the despicable levels of petty crime here and the cheerleaders usually go ballistic and take it as a personal slight. Bizarre.
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November 3rd, 2011 at 6:21 am 165
@Annonymous:
"Lol..Kelowna?! Great place if you want to deal with Thugs and Bikers every where you go..Last post by the way.. this site is too much of a Moaning and Groaning Circle Jerk for me…"
You're kidding right? There are no prizes for the most contradictory post of the year.
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November 3rd, 2011 at 6:21 am 166
161 Annonymous Says: "Last post by the way.. this site is too much of a Moaning and Groaning Circle Jerk for me…"
…. moaning and groaning about leaving on account of the moaning and groaning?
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November 3rd, 2011 at 6:26 am 167
@SunBlaster: “she went ballistic and was ready to pack suitcases”
"Not sure how to read that…"
took me an hour and some Pepsi lime to figure it out. She wanted to move with me not away from me
P
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November 3rd, 2011 at 6:33 am 168
@fixie guy: If you have a store selling whatever, and you know that your best customers are all buying with stolen money. Do you keep taking the money because hey, you have a business to run, employees to pay, family to feed, or do you act on your moral & ethics fibre and say no, I will not profit or take proceeds from crime?
If you keep selling to criminals paying with proceeds of crime knowingly, are you not an accomplice to the criminals? How can you claim you are morally superior to the criminals?
Simple question and simple comparison. How is this even an issue of false dichotomies? Unless your mind can't rationalize the two ideas of looked down at the people living large on stolen money thinking they are worst of the worst, while at the same time you are accepting some of those stolen money from these scums as well?
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November 3rd, 2011 at 6:35 am 169
@POP: what if she doesn't want any babies but rather want to enjoy the high culture, metropolitan living of a world class city?
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November 3rd, 2011 at 6:38 am 170
@chilled: But it does help to keep a lot of auto-shops in business and helps the local economy! Otherwise you might be tempted to spend those extra money in US cross border shopping trips!
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November 3rd, 2011 at 6:48 am 171
I have a client who is a "scientist" in a specific field that I won't mention here. Needless to say she has a PhD and even worked for years in silicon valley within the IT sector. She moved to Vancouver about six months ago because her significant other lives and works here (government job). She has called it quits on her Vancouver job search and moved back to California because she just couldn't find a job in Vancouver that was remotely close to what she was doing in California. That is Vancouver for you, the third largest city in Canada. It seems to be Vancouver is the BPOE if you are: a government employee, realtor, mortgage broker, or blue collar construction type.
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November 3rd, 2011 at 7:00 am 172
@space889: "If you have a store selling whatever, and you know that your best customers are all buying with stolen money."
Are you talking HAM buying Vancouver RE?
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November 3rd, 2011 at 7:01 am 173
168 space889 Says: "…you know that your best customers are all buying with stolen money. … or take proceeds from crime?…paying with proceeds of crime knowingly,"
Lol, wrapping them in begged questions and ridiculous assumptions negates false dichotomies?
Some excellent post-secondary courses specialize in logic.
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November 3rd, 2011 at 7:17 am 174
"space889 Says:
November 3rd, 2011 at 2:35 pm
@POP: what if she doesn’t want any babies but rather want to enjoy the high culture, metropolitan living of a world class city?"
Anyone who thinks that Vancouver has high culture or it's world class definitely never been anywhere else in the world. I lived in the largest European city for half of my life, and my wife is from largest city on this side of the planet, and Vancouver HAS NOTHING compared worlds largest cities.
There are no big attractions in Vancouver, (suspension bridge doesn't count as attraction), no big events, no budget for any significant size events were city doesn't get trashed, no decent museums, or exhibitions.
Partly because city is very new only 100+ years old and there is not much history behind it. Partly is because BC doesn't have enough revenue to spend on public entertainment or cultural events, or any kind of man made landmarks.
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November 3rd, 2011 at 7:20 am 175
The only time I felt like I was living somewhere special, truly world class is last year during Olympics, city was alive, people were happy, things were happening, YOU HAD TO BE HERE but only during that time.
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November 3rd, 2011 at 7:32 am 176
@SunBlaster: **The only time I felt like I was living somewhere special, truly world class is last year during Olympics, city was alive, people were happy, things were happening, YOU HAD TO BE HERE but only during that time.**
Have to agree, don't even compare it to the best, just compare it to Montreal. Montreal has: Better festivals, better music scene, better Arts and Culture, better Universities, cheaper housing, better architecture….and on and on. I can't even count the number of amazing Musicians that have been on tour and the closest they get to Vancouver is Seattle. What's funny is that it was a Winter Olympics that more than half the world could care less about….and that is our shining moment. Meh.
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November 3rd, 2011 at 8:17 am 177
@Oilman:
Majority in Vancouver don't give a shit about arts, music, architecture and the other kinds of culture. All that matter is cheap dim sum, "fancy car" dealerships, branded fake clothing and of course RE.
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November 3rd, 2011 at 8:46 am 178
@chilled:
"In Vancouver it is not uncommon to have your vehicle broken into for something as “valuable” as an empty pop can. Point out the despicable levels of petty crime here and the cheerleaders usually go ballistic and take it as a personal slight. Bizarre."
It's undisputed that property crime in Vancouver is high. It's supported by the stats. However I'd rather have my car broken into than my head broken into any day of the week. Crimes against the person are far lower in Vancouver than just about any major US city.
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November 3rd, 2011 at 8:54 am 179
@Dabster: Funny, my brother brought back a fake Rolex Explorer from China. It looked very real, right down to the movement of the second hand. It even came with a automatic movement. One problem, though, it cannot keep time. Then again, that's a small price to pay for looking cool, no?
Is there one Chinese dude in this town wearing a real North Face jacket? What about a Chinese girl with a real LV bag? I'm starting to think even the Holt Renfrew bags are fakes…..nothing like diminishing the status of premium brands when everybody, including the Chinese Gramma ripping off my returnables, is walking around with a LV bag. Off duty of course…
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November 3rd, 2011 at 8:55 am 180
@DEFAULT NAMEe:
It would appear, Vancouver is worst in Canada for gun-related crime:
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.htm…
Though you could argue we've drastically cut down since 2008, I guess. I don't see any more recent articles in a quick google search.
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November 3rd, 2011 at 9:05 am 181
@DEFAULT NAMEe:
Actually crime rates against the person are lower in the US, often much lower, except for homicide, which is isolated to several blighted urban ghettos.
Violent crime in the US is down about 50% from a couple decades ago but I guess old stereotypes die hard.
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November 3rd, 2011 at 9:29 am 182
@DEFAULT NAME:
Right on, LV bags are Vancouver's phenomenon, like license plates, Asian woman can't walk around if she doesn't wear one or at least holds a coach bag (just temporary, N). Needles to say that real LV (entry model) starts at $1K so you got the picture.
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November 3rd, 2011 at 9:36 am 183
@Dabster:
Don't forget UFC…
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November 3rd, 2011 at 10:08 am 184
New Listings 177
Price Changes 95
Sold Listings 167
TI:15814
http://www.laurenandpaul.ca
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November 3rd, 2011 at 10:09 am 185
I don't know why everyone is complaining about low paying jobs in Vancouver. Just go work for Translink. On CKNW today they had a bit on what people make there. The Transit police are the highest paid police agency in BC. Almost half the officers make over 100K per year. Many of those are retired from other forces and collect a pension on top. The lowest paid officer was 75K per year. This is for guys who check Skytrain tickets for a living.
They also talked about a Translink manager who went from making 80K per year to 250K per year over 3 years. Nice raise. How does someone get that kind of raise in 3 years for a money losing organization?
I guess we know where that 2 cent gas tax will be going.
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November 3rd, 2011 at 10:56 am 186
I'm still here
……..lock up your daughters
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November 3rd, 2011 at 11:02 am 187
@DEFAULT NAME:
"Violent crime in the US is down about 50% from a couple decades ago but I guess old stereotypes die hard."
The (recent) stats were discussed here last year sometime. This isn't about old stereotypes.
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November 3rd, 2011 at 11:52 am 188
@DEFAULT NAMEe:
"The (recent) stats were discussed here last year sometime. This isn’t about old stereotypes."
Well, according to the EC and UN, Canada has a violent crime rate of 935 incidents per 100,000 people. The US rate is 466.
And according to this UN report from 2002, the US had just over 11.8 million crimes a year while Canada had 2.5 million. They have 10 times the population.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri-cri…
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November 3rd, 2011 at 11:53 am 189
@fixie guy: ….wrapping them in begged questions and ridiculous assumptions negates false dichotomies?….
And a warm welcome to Rex Murphy.
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November 3rd, 2011 at 12:04 pm 190
Too much antisemitism on this site
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November 3rd, 2011 at 12:05 pm 191
America is full of guns and crazy nut wing lunatics. I would rather live in Canada where gun possesion is strictly regulated. Columbine, No thanks.
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November 3rd, 2011 at 12:23 pm 192
@chip:
What on earth does total population have to do with it if you're comparing rates per 100,000 population?
Here are the stats that were discussed here last year :
http://www.cbc.ca/bc/news/bc-101216-progress-boar…
Page 70. Canadian cities in general fare better than the US ones. Vancouver only comes in 15th out of 17 because of its high rate of property crime. If you just look at just violent crimes it's towards the bottom of the Canadian cities, but above almost all those in the US.
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November 3rd, 2011 at 12:34 pm 193
chip did you skip math 101?
Violent crime in US metropolitan cities is WAAAAY Up in comparison to Vancouver.
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November 3rd, 2011 at 12:39 pm 194
Canadian pansies
wah wah wah big bad guns..oooh Gov't protect me….yeah sure Cops with tasers
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November 3rd, 2011 at 1:11 pm 195
@DEFAULT NAMEe: "Crimes against the person are far lower in Vancouver than just about any major US city"
Not correct.
City of Vancouver:
- 2010 Population = 642,843
- 2010 Property crimes = 34696 Ratio = 5.08%
- 2010 Violent crimes = 6711 Ratio 1.04%
City of Seattle:
- 2010 Population = 608,660
- 2010 Property crimes = 33186 Ratio = 5.4%
- 2010 Violent crimes = 3874 Ratio = .57%
City of Bellevue:
- 2006 Population = 109569
- 2006 Property crimes = 4245 Ratio = 3.8%
- 2006 Violent crimes = 184 Ratio = 0.16%
City of LA:
- 2010 Population = 4,000,000
- 2010 Property Crimes = 88,000 Ratio = 2.2%
- 2010 Violent crimes = 21,000 Ratio = 0.525%
http://vancouver.ca/police/Planning/StatsDistrict… http://www.seattle.gov/police/crime/10_Stats/10_M…
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November 3rd, 2011 at 1:18 pm 196
LA 2010 Crime Stats:
http://www.lapdonline.org/assets/pdf/2010%20Summa…
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November 3rd, 2011 at 1:57 pm 197
Interesting straw poll, if you want Gregor back vote this up.
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November 3rd, 2011 at 1:57 pm 198
If you want Anton to win. Vote this up.
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November 3rd, 2011 at 2:08 pm 199
What about the other option of don't care? I don't live in the city of Vancouver.
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November 3rd, 2011 at 2:35 pm 200
Sorry to be repetitive but perhaps the three people posting under variations of Default Name could also spend a few seconds coming up with original names. Seriously dudes, it's like watching a bum arguing with himself.
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November 3rd, 2011 at 2:37 pm 201
Actually "Bum Arguing with Himself" would be an awesome name.
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November 3rd, 2011 at 3:01 pm 202
http://www.greaterfool.ca/2011/11/03/the-uncrisis…
Fuck, Turner has completely lost it. He just spent 3yrs telling us this wasn't possible, the untouchable bond markets would ultimately dictate. What a fucking idiot this man has become. It would also help if he didn't write in prose, he isn't a fucking Michael Ondaatje for christs sakes, and sometimes is too hard a read for the resultant simplistic message.
"What the fear brigade fails to understand is widespread financial meltdown is impossible so long as the elite fends it off. This is what the G20, the EU, the G8, the IMF, WB, ECB and the FSB (which Marc Carney will probably head by the weekend) are all about. These guys make the rules. They can nationalize banks, bail out countries, force taxes and austerity measures, recapitalize institutions, raise or lower interest rates, expand or contract the money supply, regulate or deregulate and in the course of it all, modify human behaviour. That means they can prevent a run on the banks, influence the bond market or make mortgages irresistibly cheap."
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November 3rd, 2011 at 5:50 pm 203
I moved to Vancouver in 2005 convinced that I would stay forever. I made good money by working my buns off but my company sold us worker bees out and basically stole the money in the company and gave it to the executives….wonder why the 99% is so pissed. Anyways, I finally tossed in the towel and moved to San Francisco this summer where the jobs in my field are a dime a dozen and all pay 6 figures. SF used to be considered a very expensive city, but I guess all is relative as it seems positively cheap as compared to Vancouver. Sad. Heck, I even just bought a gorgeous home. This was an impossible dream in Vancouver…Sad to leave Vancouver but in the end my quality of life has already greatly improved.
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November 3rd, 2011 at 7:46 pm 204
@DEFAULT NAME134282:
Being a victim of violent crime, in both Canada and the US, is almost entirely a function of your social group. That is, almost all victims of violent crime are from the underclass, are professional criminals, or live in violent family units.
That doesn't mean that YOU will be appreciably more likely to be a victim of violent crime if you move to a city with a higher rate, whether that be Regina (which has a higher rate due to its high aboriginal population), or Seattle.
Now it's true that a middle class person in the US has perhaps twice the likelihood of being killed by a stranger than one in Canada, but that likelihood is vastly lower than that of being killed by a car accident in either country.
Property crime, as we all know, does not distinguish among its victims by social group. THAT's the difference.
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November 3rd, 2011 at 11:00 pm 205
@patriotz: You may have left Vancouver, but don't leave this blog. We need the clarity you bring to these discussions…
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November 7th, 2011 at 10:47 pm 206
I completely agree with the author of this post.
I left Vancouver to move to Edmonton and the amount of better paying jobs is day and night compared to Vancouver.But it seems that Vancouver has always really shitty employers who only want to pay you minimum wage.
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November 8th, 2011 at 7:28 pm 207
Hmmm, well I like it just fine and I’m renting and earning average wage.
I guess some folks just can’t see beyond home ownership as their goal in life. I’d love to own a house but renting in a place I like comes a close second.
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November 9th, 2011 at 2:22 am 208
People are always leaving wherever they are…and I personally know probably hundreds of very ambitious people who would never dream of leaving vancouver.
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