New mortgage rules make buying hard
How’s this for an opener:
While the country’s new mortgage rules are meant to cool the market, eventually making housing more affordable, they’ve put home ownership out of reach for many prospective buyers.
Uh-huh. And what if the problem was that we put home ownership in reach of too many prospective buyers?
Those who don’t have a down payment of 20 per cent or more will be limited to a maximum amortization period of 25 years. Since 40 per cent of new mortgages last year were for 26 to 30 years, according to a survey from the Canadian Association of Accredited Mortgage Professionals, real-estate neophytes might feel the change most dramatically.
WHoa! Did they just say 40 percent of new mortgages were over 25 year amorts?
Another new rule announced by Mr. Flaherty sets the maximum gross debt-service ratio – the percentage of household income being used to pay for housing – at 39 per cent so buyers will be less likely to take on mortgages that are too big and could leave them floundering if rates increase.
That’s the one that Andrea Benton, a 37-year-old entrepreneur in North Vancouver, B.C., said hits her family of four hardest.
“It means my total family income would have to be an exorbitant amount to afford an $800,000 house,” she said.
You mean you’re expected to have a high income to afford an $800,000 house?!?
Read all the comedy in the full article here.
June 28th, 2012 at 12:07 am 1
[Update from the Chinese Forum front] Richmond RE Pumper “GreatChina” calling for “Unity of Sellers” to prevent further price drops.
“A brand new house in good area of West Richmond, 8111 Dalemore Rd, was just sold for $1.58M, $170k lower than assessed price of $1.75M. It’s a shame that the buyer went through so much to purchase this property and build a new house, hoping to earn some money while doing a service to the community, only to have the buyer recklessly slashing price. I call on the sellers to withhold giving in to under-asking offers. We should all pull our listings and wait until a better market to sell in a bidding war situation”
HAHAHAHAHA
Current listing: MLS® V953065 http://www.ecorealtyinc.ca/listing?id=259508474
Purchase price: $533,000 Oct 2006 (old timer, was torn down and rebuilt as luxury mansion)
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June 28th, 2012 at 12:45 am 2
take this with a grain of salt for now..
according to user “gse36″ at RET,
“*using sales reported between May 27, 2012 and June 26, 2012, and actives as of today
14.7 MOI in van west detached. yikes
7.8 MOI in van east
7.4 MOI in north van
18 MOI in west van
23 MOI in richmond”
I thought we were just talking about 14 MOI in Richmond by end of June? Need another take on this.. ZRH2YVR? GVREB?
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June 28th, 2012 at 2:54 am 3
“Did they just say 40 percent of new mortgages were over 25 year amorts?”
Remember a new mortgage is just that, a new mortgage. It does not mean only a first time buyer, it includes anyone buying a property or even taking out a new mortgage on a property they already own. 40% of all that over 25 years is very, very scary.
Virtually all first time buyers go over 25 years.
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June 28th, 2012 at 3:59 am 4
@VMD: Thank you for this, it is one of my favorite posts of the year.
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June 28th, 2012 at 4:41 am 5
I was going to update the Aussie market but Mish beat me to it. Housing shortage indeed.
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com.au/2012/06/laugh-of-day-no-risk-of-housing-bust.html?x#echocomments
Prices will be up in June but reality suggests otherwise.
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June 28th, 2012 at 5:33 am 6
@1 VMD quotes: “I call on the sellers to withhold giving in to under-asking offers.”
Encourage them to hold fast at every opportunity. The faster these neophyte, loss-adverse Warren Buffett wannabees ride the inevitable to the bitter end and are flushed from the economy the faster we heal.
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June 28th, 2012 at 5:52 am 7
This “logic” being presented about how the new mortgaging rules REDUCES buying opportunites is riduculous.
Hmmm, let’s see how this might work…
Tougher rules = fewer sales.
Fewer sales = LOWER PRICES.
It’s not rocket science.
Duh.
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June 28th, 2012 at 6:14 am 8
“It means my total family income would have to be an exorbitant amount to afford an $800,000 house,” she said.
Hey, what the heck, it makes “pride of ownership” even more prestigious.
On a serious note, the amortization on the junk condos should not be more than 15 years, that’s how long the plastic and K3 board will last.
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June 28th, 2012 at 6:26 am 9
#1 VMD.
Richmond has had so few sales this month that prices are fallilng quite good and many large discounts. Almost every sale now is below assessment and people making price changes are bringing asking price below. On the Dalemore property – stats are accurate but consistent with the other transactions being sold in Richmond now. In addition, given the nationality of the Richmond building spec’ers (they are not Chinese) – posting in the Chinese forum will not reach these sellers.
Separately, I think we can see some of the impacts of the rule changes already happening. There has been a small spike in sales volume in the past week – which is against the seasonal trend. This will likely result in the June 2012 having higher sales numbers than 2008. Although we are trending like 2008, this market has not fallen apart like 2008 partly because we do not have a rush of listings.
Richmond is dead – sellers trying to collude just can not happen. Richmond will end the month with about 80 sales and have 1200 active listings.
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June 28th, 2012 at 6:29 am 10
#2 VMD – sorry – did not see this. These are not accurate. Issue is that you can not really run sales transactions by date because recent sales don’t post perhaps until 2-4 weeks later. Richmond will end with 14, Van-West 10. I think West Van is 12. Van East is 6.
It’s almost the worst we’ve had for this time of year. However, inventory is now flat through the summer so only falling sales will increase MOI.
I’m off on Vacay now for 3.5 weeks – - so .. I’m going to try to go offline.
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June 28th, 2012 at 7:08 am 11
exx Says June 27th, 2012 at 8:07 pm
It’s 2008 all over again for these two Sahalee/Nahanee towers I’ve been watching in Port Moody. Except in 2008 there was only one of them
2708 660 NOOTKA Way, 2b/2b 908sqft $375,000 (V959298).
i followed the sales in that highrise along with several others in the tri cities last spring(2011), mainly to prove to myself that all the MSM hype and various realtor boards talk of never ending price increases were just bunk– here are a couple of sales from that building—they all sold for less than originally purchased for
#2707-bought for 424.9k in 2009—sold July 2011 for 377k
#1007-bought for 364.9k in 2009—sold July 2011 for 346k
#2303-bought for 652.9k in 2009—listed for 709k in Feb 2010 and eventually sold for 580k in May 2011
#2807-bought for 429.9k in 2009—eventually sold for 393k
#1506–still listed on MLS–bought in 2009 for 568.9k — originally listed in Sept 2010 for 629.9k and now sits at 555k
yes, these are a year old but shows what was really happenning last year in some areas concerning the condo market when everything was “going up”– and from what i see now in the tri cities, in the resale market, it isn’t much better than last year
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June 28th, 2012 at 7:30 am 12
@patriotz:
Last I spoke with a mortgage broker they were trying to push me into a 35 year mortgage (yeah it was a while ago). They claimed that it made the most sense because it offered the most flexibility. It could be accelerated to a 25 year mortgage by increasing the monthly payment but if you needed the money you could still pay at the 35 year rate. I suspect that a lot of people fall for that and take the longest amortization possible. I suspect that they get more commission the longer the mortgage is given all the extra interest that is paid. Didn’t feel like they had my best interest at heart because I kept telling them that we didn’t want a 35 year, we wanted a 25 year but they kept trying to tell me what I wanted. At the end of the day they are still a commissioned salesperson.
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June 28th, 2012 at 7:35 am 13
“It means my total family income would have to be an exorbitant amount to afford an $800,000 house,” she said.
I feel badly for Andrea Benton. It’s unconscionable that only people with either a lot of money or with a high income should be able to afford million dollar homes. Where’s the fairness in this world? The model (US, circa: 2006) where anybody with a pulse should be allowed to “buy” any home they wanted at any price with other people’s money works so much better.
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June 28th, 2012 at 7:47 am 14
“It means my total family income would have to be an exorbitant amount to afford an $800,000 house,” she said.
The lady does not understand the term ‘afford’. Just because a bank would loan you 800K before the new mortgage rules does not mean you could afford it. They are saving you from yourself.
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June 28th, 2012 at 7:50 am 15
Every single person I personally know who bought during the last rush took out a 30-40 year mortgage. After financing the renos and other “lavish homeowner lifestyle” expenses using their “equity” they are all basically underwater now, but have a hard time admitting it.
Regular first time buyers CANNOT AFFORD 25yr amortization and they have nowhere near 20% to use as a down payment. So that is basically it for the newbs.
Anyway, no average Joe buys anything right now, the only sales are done by misguided “investors” , agents and developers. An exclusive club of fools.
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June 28th, 2012 at 7:53 am 16
@ #12 Anonymous
My broker said the same thing. Most people who take a 30yr could qualify for a 25yr, yet it’d make life much tougher and he believes it is NOT in their best interest to be stretched just to buy a home.
Very surprising to hear from someone who makes his living selling mortgages.
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June 28th, 2012 at 7:54 am 17
RE: not being able to afford an $800,000 house:
It is mind boggling that a person would actually go on record with such drivel. Good, grief, she is supposed to be an entrepreneur!!!???
WTF does she do for a living? Escort services paid for in cash under the table?
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June 28th, 2012 at 7:57 am 18
@Anonymous: “could be accelerated to a 25 year mortgage by increasing the monthly payment but if you needed the money you could still pay at the 35 year rate. I suspect that a lot of people fall for that and take the longest amortization possible.”
Fall for what? It’s no trick! It makes sense to take the longest amortization possible, providing you’re contractually able to make prepayments (either monthly or as a lump sum annually).
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June 28th, 2012 at 8:02 am 19
@Vote Down The Facts:
The problem with your argument is that it supposes that the buyer is financially rational (i.e. would borrow at 35 but pay at 25), but no financially rational person would buy at today’s prices in the first place.
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June 28th, 2012 at 8:03 am 20
@vanpire:
Yeah, “entrepreneur”…
She runs a crappy little website and a blog…
http://weeboot.ca/
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June 28th, 2012 at 8:07 am 21
@taylor192: “Most people who take a 30yr could qualify for a 25yr, yet it’d make life much tougher”
Maybe true, but the fact the payment is higher now and as you say that makes life much tougher will cause people to sit out of the market. It just puts the monthly cost of buying that much higher than rent.
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June 28th, 2012 at 8:12 am 22
@patriotz:
A mortgage advisor would explain the benefits of a long amort, and it wouldn’t be their job to inform a buyer if any sort of purchase makes financial sense. So you’re wrong – there’s no need for any kind of financial awareness on the part of the buyer to allow them to take advantage.
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June 28th, 2012 at 8:18 am 23
Global BC 8AM news had the following title “House pricing drop” and mentioned that a correction is on the way and prices have already dropped. Now, media started telling the truth too…the bubble has officially started to pop. Enjoy your day fellas.
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June 28th, 2012 at 8:19 am 24
This is what you get when you accept the lowest bid for your renos.
http://www.cbc.ca/m/touch/canada/story/2012/06/28/toronto-leaning-house365.html
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June 28th, 2012 at 8:20 am 25
@Vote Down The Facts: “A mortgage advisor would explain the benefits of a long amort, and it wouldn’t be their job to inform a buyer if any sort of purchase makes financial sense.”
The ‘mortgage advisors’ job is to sell a mortgage. That is it. Offering a lower payment makes the sale easier.
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June 28th, 2012 at 8:24 am 26
@vanpire: “Good, grief, she is supposed to be an entrepreneur!”
She likely uses other people’s money to finance ventures, so why is her stance on housing so surprising?
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June 28th, 2012 at 8:28 am 27
@Vote Down The Facts:
Maybe my language was too tactful. Let me be more plain.
Anyone who buys at today’s prices is a complete idiot, and you can’t expect a complete idiot to follow through on any scheme to voluntarily pay down a mortgage to reduce its amortization.
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June 28th, 2012 at 8:31 am 28
Putting home ownership in reach for people is simple.
It NOT prolonging the amortization period or keeping the rates low.
It’s just bringing the prices down.
That’s all. Conservatives got it totally backwards. Where did they get their degrees from!?
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June 28th, 2012 at 8:42 am 29
@zrh2yvr:
I’m off on Vacay now for 3.5 weeks – – so .. I’m going to try to go offline.
Don’t go! We need you!
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June 28th, 2012 at 8:52 am 30
A couple of interesting points from the article. One is the casual use of the term ‘housing bubble’, seems to be much more common in these types of articles and not used derisively. The general tone in the MSM seems to be have shifted over the past year or so.
Secondly, the comments at the bottom from the mortgage broker about the fact that most lenders will likely stop offering 30 year ams even on un-insured mortgages. Well, either they don’t want to run afoul of OFSI&F or they aren’t comfortable with the risk now that it’s on their books.
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June 28th, 2012 at 8:56 am 31
Let me describe a stock tip I recently received.
The stock is trading near its historical high.
A lot of people are trying to sell the stock.
The government just introduced regulations that make it harder for people to buy the stock.
The price of similar stocks on exchanges in other countries has plunged by up to 60% in recent years.
Should I buy?
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June 28th, 2012 at 9:10 am 32
@Vote Down The Facts:
Right, and people can either pay off their credit card balance or just make that minimum payment, what’s wrong with that? I can’t believe how many people I know that think it is perfectly acceptable to carry a credit card balance and make the monthly minimum payment because that’s all they are obligated to pay. You think they’ll ever turn that 30 year ammortization into a 25? So when it comes to telling someone that a 30 year mortgage can be payed off in 25 years, yes they are telling the truth but why not just sell them a 25 year mortgage in the first place?
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June 28th, 2012 at 9:10 am 33
@Simple:
Do Asian investors come with suitcases full of cash to buy shares?
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June 28th, 2012 at 9:16 am 34
@Anonymous: Probably as many come with suitcases of cash to buy property.
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June 28th, 2012 at 9:22 am 35
Lower Mainland resident here.
Beside my kickass lowrise rental apartment (clean/bright/airy/quiet/spacious/nice neighbors/parking/10 min from work/$815 per month split by two people) someone plans to build a momumental phallus of a condo tower. (It actually glistens in the marketing material, and the tip is white.)
If built, this tower will be >30 stories tall. For comparison, we can’t find a >22 storey building in the whole area. It will be an enormous, vertical-shafted, concrete filing cabinet, surrounded by 3-story lowrises from the 70′s. ~300 suites plus some townhouses have been presold for members of the unwashed public to destroy their financial futures with.
The process began with the developer buying up the single-family houses next door to me and leaving them empty for a year to serve the local residents as crackhouses. From my balcony I watched the Bath Salts set have backyard exhibition matches, interact with local law enforcement professionals, park their legally-purchased quads, and of course go to work and pay their taxes for more than a year before the developer finally tore the houses down.
Next came another year of overlooking a garbage dump. When I got bored of the view, someone would show up and heave more garbage over the fence — this included the developer’s contractors, who heaved the debris from the old signs into the lot for my viewing pleasure.
Nature prevailed, however, and after two years of waiting my view has actually reverted to what could be compared to a meadow with scatterd trees and flowers — if you squint a bit. So no harm no foul.
My question is whether the aforementioned >30-storey monument to manhood is ever going to get erected, so to speak.
Here’s what I know so far:
-all units are supposedly pre-sold, except the “penthouses and sub-penthouses”
-supposedly the developer is applying to the city for increased density so that these “penthouses” can be converted to regular units (presumably because they didn’t sell)
-completion is xxx, 2015, and they are “on track”
Here are my assumptions:
-Napkin math says that revenue from on all Units combined would be North of $100 million. The bulk of this will presumably come from mortgages.
-Whomever is financing the developer must be aware that a large number of suckers (aka presale signatories) will no longer able to make good on their purchases when it’s time to actually put out
Here are my questions:
-How long does it take to build a 3x-story building? When is the developer going to convert my garbage-dump-cum-meadow into a mud field, then into a deep hole, then come and fill this hole with his big vertical tower?
-Will the latest “new mortgage math” cause the developer themselves, or their financiers, to question the likelihood that the presales will actually be fulfilled in the back of the limo after the prom? Or will they go ahead and pay for dinner without ever expecting anything in return?
-Will somebody somewhere suggest that the current buyers need to requalify, given that over the next 3 years their ability to qualify is not likely going to get any better (and will probably get much worse) than it is today?
-if not, and I strongly suspect not, what is the likelihood that they will get the hole dug or the building half-built before they stop work?
-and finally, who finances the big developers anyway? Are they self-financed, privately financed, bank financed, or does the CMHC just park limos full of cash and hookers in front of the principals’ places every second Tuesday? I think that the source of the money would be an important determinant of their understanding of the risk inherent in Canada’s stunning, stunning housing market.
Insight would be appreciated.
Crossposted to VCI and VREAA.
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June 28th, 2012 at 9:33 am 36
@Burnabonian
Great post and excellent question! Speculative RE mania has turned our neighbourhoods upside down with so much disruption for residents. I see it all the time in Surrey as vacant lots languish empty for years waiting for developers to erect phallic condo towers. In the mean time, these sites sit as garbage dumps and campgrounds for the homeless (kind of ironic…the condo boom actually provides a place for the homeless to live…fallow construction sites).
The burning question for me is the question you posed: How will the bubble bursting affect all these condo projects currently in the works and being planned for??? I asked that question on these blogs a few days ago and many responded saying that these condo projects will continue for some time. I find that answer very disappointing. The only reason why I’ve been hoping for the RE bubble to burst is to put a stop to the massive transformation of our city as condos go up almost everywhere. If the condo building boom is going to continue even through the RE bubble bursting, then I don’t care if the RE bubble bursts.
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June 28th, 2012 at 9:35 am 37
@Anonymous:
“Right, and people can either pay off their credit card balance or just make that minimum payment, what’s wrong with that? ”
Credit card debt is not amortized over a fixed period. You clearly don’t understand.
“You think they’ll ever turn that 30 year ammortization into a 25?”
Yes, providing they could have afforded a 25 in the first place. The point is that somebody who has a longer amortization may not be stretched to the max financially, as many of you would love to assume. I know many people on 35 yr terms paying off comfortably on the schedule of a 25. They could signed up for the 25 originally, and had no problems servicing it, it just makes sense to get the extra flexibility as it costs nothing.
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June 28th, 2012 at 9:41 am 38
@Anonymous:
“Do Asian investors come with suitcases full of cash to buy shares?”
Yes they do, in documented amounts far higher than RE investment could possibly be.
http://www.ey.com/Publication/vwLUAssets/Asian-investment-Western-Canada/$FILE/The-rise-of-Asian-investment-in-Western-Canada.pdf
But it hasn’t stopped the TSX from falling recently.
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June 28th, 2012 at 9:48 am 39
@Joe_Blown_Away_By_High_Housing_Costs: many responded saying that these condo projects will continue for some time. I find that answer very disappointing.
Keep in mind that more towers means more supply means prices are driven down further.
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June 28th, 2012 at 9:53 am 40
@Joe_Blown_Away_By_High_Housing_Costs:
Then you’re going to be disappointed. The bubble may have slightly accelerated the building boom, but the main cause of housing construction is and always has been immigration. As long as the city keeps growing, construction will go on and the transformation will continue.
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June 28th, 2012 at 10:03 am 41
@Yalie
I agree that I probably will be very disappointed in the future urban development of the Vancouver Region.
But I have to counter your point: Is it necessarily the case that immigration goes hand in hand with a condo boom/drastic neighbourhood transformation? Didn’t we have high levels of immigration back in the 80s, 70s, 60s, and 50s??? We didn’t have the kind of neighbourhood transformation back then that we are experiencing now. It’s true what Burnabonian said about developers buying up entire blocks of SFHs to turn them into condos. The block near Joyce Station was entirely bought up. The entire block had boarded up houses, now I think they have been demolished as the site is prepared for a condo tower. I lived in Vancouver in the 80s. I remember there was a lot of immigration back then. But we didn’t have entire blocks of houses boarded up and demolished for condo towers. There is something else driving the condo boom besides immigration: cheap credit and a belief that RE always goes up in price. A lot of these condo units aren’t even occupied, they are just bought by speculators. So all the condo development is not all due to growing population due to immigration.
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June 28th, 2012 at 10:07 am 42
@Vote Down The Facts:
You’re the one that still doesn’t get it. I’m not talking about possibilities here, I’m talking about reality and human nature. I never said that anyone was so stretched that they couldn’t afford the difference between paying a 25 and 30 year mortgage I’m just saying that when given the choice of going out for dinner once a week or making the extra mortgage payment I know what choice my the majority of my colleagues and friends would make. We have a negative savings rate in BC, there’s no prudence here.
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June 28th, 2012 at 10:44 am 43
40 Yalie Says: “The bubble may have slightly accelerated the building boom, but the main cause of housing construction is and always has been immigration.”
Metro Vancouver’s population grew just under 60K between 2001 and 2011, the number of households obviously by much less. Guesstimating 2 per household, do the numbers show ~30K new units added over the same period?
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June 28th, 2012 at 10:50 am 44
With the cost of buying what it is, having many condos and homes in Vancouver sit empty for years at a time is ethically reprehensible (and I say this as a homeowner). We have all seen the “sold-out” buildings with very few lights turned on in any of its units in the early evening. Are these meant to be living spaces, or gambling chips for rich multi-property investors?
Housing is a necessity of life. I submit that hoarding housing is akin to hoarding other necessities when they are in limited supply — like healthcare devices/supplies, water, food, etc — and storing them while hoping that prices rise…and those in need are left out of luck.
If BC is serious about making housing affordable, it could do something like impose a hefty “luxury tax” on properties which remain empty for any long periods of time, and are not listed for the duration of that time.
How to do this? As part of yearly property tax collection, for properties which are not a principal residence, mandate that property owners identify who was living there in the previous year. If there is nobody listed living there for an entire year, the property could be deemed to be tantamount to a poker chip, and a hefty property tax is levied.
Obviously such rules would require certain exceptions and safeguards (eg. make sure that people aren’t listed as simultaneously living in multiple places), but in theory they would not only discourage using homes as gambling chips, but even more strongly encourage owners to rent out — and even lower their rents if they have to.
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June 28th, 2012 at 10:51 am 45
@Anonymous:
Yes, and I already told you that I know of many people who are paying off on the shorter schedule. I doubt either one of us are going to find statistics that back up our point of view, however, and we both have anecdotal evidence in support of our claims. What’s clear is that you can’t use a long amortization as evidence that somebody couldn’t afford a higher payment – because they might already be making that higher payment.
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June 28th, 2012 at 10:55 am 46
I know some here do not like price anecdotes.
However I did not use to see such price drops in the last few years. So I like to share the info; here is another one:
MLS® V943408 asking $756,800
Asking $838,000 two months ago.
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June 28th, 2012 at 10:59 am 47
MLS® V947428
1,075,000 two months ago. Now $100,000 down. What makes the sellers so impatient?
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June 28th, 2012 at 11:04 am 48
@Burnabonian: Vancouver and surroundings (even all of Canada? North America?) displays a complete lack of imagination (and urban planning competence) when it comes to increasing density. To increase density in any area, just replace the SFHs with condo towers. Really? Is there anything as sad as a suburban condo tower?
Is there something about mid-density housing that clashes with North American values? Or just developer/city profits?
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June 28th, 2012 at 11:08 am 49
@jumpin in: What is the new price??? Sub $1M. Is this intentional or just coincidence?
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June 28th, 2012 at 11:21 am 50
jumpin in Says:
June 28th, 2012 at 10:55 am
I know some here do not like price anecdotes
i find that it is one of the better indicators (price drops)for the layman (non realtors) to really see what’s happenning in a certain area–takes some time to do though–now if we had easy access to previous purchase price and sale price, we’ld be laughing
watch Paulbs’ numbers for price changes when posted –bet there aren’t many going up
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June 28th, 2012 at 11:23 am 51
@Joe_Blown_Away_By_High_Housing_Costs:
With all due respect, I think you have a selective memory. Almost all of the West End was detached houses before the highrise condos of the 60s and 70s went up. And plenty of condos were going up in Yaletown, Metrotown, etc. (often replacing entire blocks of SFH) throughout the 80′s and 90′s, over a decade before the current bubble. There are plenty of other examples across the GV.
Mind you, I do agree that condos are a much less appealing route to densification than low-rises and row houses like they have in Europe. But as another poster pointed out, I suspect that’s more of a North American (and Asian) cultural preference than a result of the bubble.
Nonetheless, regardless of the type of housing, densification will continue as long as popuplation increases. And that will mean clearing blocks of SFH and putting up condos of one size or another. The bubble may have increased the rate of construction temporarily, and this may fall off in the short term as the bubble bursts. But in the long run, condos will keep going as long as Vancouver’s population keeps growing.
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June 28th, 2012 at 11:32 am 52
a couple of random thursday morning thoughts.
Thought/statement #1) – My wife and I are both professionals… real ones, i.e. went to professional school for years, belong to a professional organizations, work friggin hard. my profession doesn’t involve a lot of writing so I apologise for my poor grammar/typos.
we currently spend about 4% of our pre-tax income on rent (we live in an ok place in a shitty area). But we have paid off all of our expensive schooling and are now working on a downpayment.
My wife has been starting to get house horny, looking at houses >1million. All of our friends have bought in the last few years, and the peer pressure is building up, never mind that every single one had help from the bank of mom and dad.
Technically we can afford these at current rates, but my reasoning that we should go easy and hold off buying due to the soon to??? happen price reductions were starting to fall on deaf ears. THANK THE LORD FOR THE MORTGAGE CHANGES!!!! We now will need to wait a few more years to save up the necessary downpayment for her dreamhome. Assuming we still need to pay over a million at that time!! When I explained the rule changes to my wife, she agreed to just look for a nice rental.. woo hooo, hopefully this means retirement comes a few years earlier!
Luckily?!? neither of our parents are in a position to help us out with a downpayment.
#2) Just got back from visiting friends in Calgary, lots of young rich oil guys…. many are very nervous. One guy, who is part owner of an oil services company, admitted is having trouble sleeping. He was looking at mercs, beemers, lexus’… ended up buying a used KIA! Another guy was in exploration, part owner of a company. They are currently just sitting on cash waiting to vulture, they go to work everyday and do nothing. His thoughts were that the Bakken field in North Dakota was going to kill alberta as it was cheaper to get the oil out and it is closer to markets.
#3)Friend was just visiting from NY. works in finance, makes very good money, can’t afford to rent more than a shoebox in Manhattan, lives in Brooklyn instead. She stated that as NY has become much safer, people are no longer getting married and moving to the suburbs, but are instead living in smaller places closer to the city for lifestyle reasons. There is lots of difficulty getting kids into the good public schools close to the city.
Her and many of her friends (canadian) would love to live in Vancouver for lifestyle (city and outdoors together is the common refrain), but they need to be in manhattan for work.
Basically her thoughts were that there is a changing mentality, people now value living close to work and living in a congested urban environment with there family, the white picket fence and big yard dream is somewhat dwindling.
I think this also applies to Vancouver, most people i know want to live close to the city and it’s amenities. They do not want to commute and be committed to driving everywhere. My thoughts on this are that neighbourhoods close to downtown will have to densify, sorry joe blown away by housing prices. Overall i think this is a good thing.
#4) Another couple just bought a condo downtown, big place, last bought in 2008, had been rented out to ~8 ESL students, stank to high heaven. During their viewings there were three people sleeping in the living room who refused to leave for the showing. They ended up getting it for 100k less than the original owner paid in 08.
#5) acquaintances bought a place in 09 thanks to a downpayment from her parents (heloc on their house in the okanagan!!!). Maxed out on 5%/35yr. bought a crappy spec built, plastic fantastic house and then proceeded to upgrade a whole bunch of stuff (original heating was insufficient).
So 900k, plus cmhc insurance, plus 50k+ in upgrades.
Couple have decided to split and just noticed today the house has become a member of the just under a million club… looking forward to watching this one!!!
#6) my younger sister has been looking of rentals in chilliwack. all the landlords have to drive out from vancouver to meet her, apparently the desperation is palatable. One guy said he has two houses in chilliwack he bought for his kids. His two kids are under 6, but apparently in 15 years the chinese are going to own vancouver and locals will all be living in the valley! Having these houses in chilliwack means they will have somewhere to live!!!
poor guy drove 3 hours return to show a house and my sister had no interest after seeing it for 2mins.
thats it for now
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June 28th, 2012 at 11:36 am 53
one more anecdote
went to a bbq last night. renter from north van looking into moving to squamish due to housing costs. Thought he would never own in vancouver due to the neverending tide of chinese. When I told him about the changes to the investor immigrant program and the huge drop in sales volume and listing in west vancouver he was blown away… apparently the word is not getting out yet!
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June 28th, 2012 at 11:41 am 54
@Burnabonian:
It sounds like the building will get built. It will take 2 to 3 years to build.
If the developer has presold it they will have financing. After that point 99% plus of condos will get built. From what you described that sounds like a good thing for the area but maybe bad for you if you gave to find a new place.
Going forward towers will continue to get built as long as people are willing to sign presale agreements. The first thing you will see is prices of presales coming down and maybe larger deposits required. In 2008 the condo project The Beasley was mid presale when sales stopped due to the overall housing slow down. The developer reduced the prices by about 25% (I think that was the amount) including for those who already agreed to buy at higher prices. That got the sales going again and the tower is now finished. We should see more of that once the. Orrection really starts.
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June 28th, 2012 at 11:42 am 55
“Every single person I personally know who bought during the last rush took out a 30-40 year mortgage”
same here, I don’t know one person that took out a mortgage with less than a 30 year amortization, and I know A LOT of people that have bought in the last 6 years.
but we’re talking Canada post workers, waitresses, Whole foods cashiers, and teachers, had they taken out 25 year mortgages they never would have been able to afford their 600 square foot $450,000 1 bedroom apartments….. fuck the media and such for helping to put these people in this position. I’m still getting spam e-mails from my mortgage “specialist” telling me to jump in before July 9th…wtf
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June 28th, 2012 at 11:45 am 56
@cbgb:
“Thought he would never own in vancouver due to the neverending tide of chinese. When I told him about the changes to the investor immigrant program and the huge drop in sales volume and listing in west vancouver he was blown away… apparently the word is not getting out yet!”
If your friend thought that they’d never own due to immigration, then they’ve not been paying attention all along.
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June 28th, 2012 at 11:45 am 57
“It means my total family income would have to be an exorbitant amount to afford an $800,000 house,” she said.
It is unthinkable to her that prices could fall because less
People can afford current prices with current mortgage rules.
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June 28th, 2012 at 11:46 am 58
Note to all the inventory watchers out there: remember that July 1st inventory drops are really big. In 2008, VW detached saw a 10% drop, for example.
Some of this may come back on as re-lists during the first half of July, but no one should either panic (or gloat) about the big inventory movements we will see over the next week.
The good news–high likelihood we can have a 19K inventory party part deux during July! And since when is a party *ever* a bad thing!!
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June 28th, 2012 at 11:52 am 59
@Vote Down The Factsok so what you are surging is the new mortgage rules will have zero impact? If that is the case there will be more tightening.
The problem with your theory is we know what housing costs and we know what incomes are. Do the math. People are stretched to the max.
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June 28th, 2012 at 11:53 am 60
@cbgb: “My thoughts on this are that neighbourhoods close to downtown will have to densify, sorry joe blown away by housing prices. Overall i think this is a good thing.”
I had thought so too, but then I thought, well if it’s true that closer to the city is more desirable and that is driving up land prices, condo rents, for the most part, aren’t appreciating quickly. It’s still about the land, and while Vancouver increasing its population will drive up land prices, I think the effect has been brought forward far too aggressively.
If the suburbs are less desirable because of commute times and costs, I would have expected prices in those areas to drop relative to the core. Well, as it turns out, they have, and one of the plausible reasons for this is higher transportation costs. If it is true that higher transportation costs are going to remain, that means the outskirts should be dropping EVEN MORE than would be required to return them to valuations near the start of the century.
Just some thoughts; I’m suspicious of current land values, and certainly a New Yorker visiting Vancouver of late would probably see parallels: rental yields on NY properties (and not rent controlled ones) are very low as well.
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June 28th, 2012 at 11:58 am 61
Radical Entertainment is closing down. Another bunch of high paying jobs gone.
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June 28th, 2012 at 12:02 pm 62
@cbgb:
You spend 4% of pretax income on housing? Man you are cheap. No wonder you wife wants to buy. My suggestion rent a place for the 4k per month your wife wants to spend on a mortgage. You will get a nice place, keep her happy and it sounds like you can afford it. This correction will take years so may a well get into something decent now.
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June 28th, 2012 at 12:10 pm 63
Anyone following the kits coast guard thing? Apparently more than 80% of their calls are to help out rich, dumb boaters who run out of gas. No wonder rich people love Vancouver so much. When their free water tow truck gets cut the entire city is gets behind the rich to demand it stays.
“Vessels with motors have problems… people do run out of gas… sometimes people just simply get lost or the weather sets in and they can’t quite get a fix of where they’re at.”
That’s our tax dollars going to support some rich guy’s hobby.
http://www.cknw.com/Channels/Reg/NewsLocal/Story.aspx?ID=1729485
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June 28th, 2012 at 12:18 pm 64
@cbgb:
“I think this also applies to Vancouver, most people i know want to live close to the city and it’s amenities. They do not want to commute”
What doesn’t also apply to Vancouver is the huge number of high paying jobs that Manhattan has. My gut feeling is that the average job in CoV now pays less than the average job in many of the suburbs.
So I think the future is going to be more like you live in CoV for the lifestyle or you live in the suburbs to be close to your job. A lot of people live in CoV and commute to the suburbs already.
And that’s one more reason why current condo prices in CoV are absurd.
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June 28th, 2012 at 12:19 pm 65
@Anonymous:
“so what you are surging is the new mortgage rules will have zero impact?”
No, that’s not what I’m saying. You clearly have comprehension issues.
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June 28th, 2012 at 12:24 pm 66
@starbucker:
“Anyone following the kits coast guard thing? Apparently more than 80% of their calls are to help out rich, dumb boaters who run out of gas.”
And once the Kits station is closed those same people will make the same calls to the coastguard, but now it’ll cost even more money because they’ll be dispatched from Richmond.
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June 28th, 2012 at 12:34 pm 67
@Vote Down The Facts:
Under the current plan, the volunteer auxiliary coast guard in kits will be increased. They’ll have no problem bringing millionaires gas. So it will cost less.
You don’t need professionals and expensive equipment to bring someone gas.
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June 28th, 2012 at 12:40 pm 68
Up in Powell River on business, and boy, are the weekly RE papers just stacked with for sale ads…
Looked up the sales and price and low and behold…
“The average price of a single-family home declined 15.6 per cent, decreasing from $262,170 in May 2011 to $221,268 in May 2012.”
Ouch…
While the Catalyst Corp issues are a driver, its all those recreational 2nd homes that a real driver…\
Soon to be near you…
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June 28th, 2012 at 12:55 pm 69
@starbucker: “You don’t need professionals and expensive equipment to bring someone gas.”
I agree.
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June 28th, 2012 at 12:56 pm 70
@Anonymous:
Here’s a link about the closure of Radical : http://kotaku.com/5922129/report-prototype-creators-shutting-down
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June 28th, 2012 at 12:58 pm 71
@Joe_Blown_Away_By_High_Housing_Costs: The direction of the lower mainland is from SFH to multi-family. That is the plan.
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June 28th, 2012 at 12:58 pm 72
@Jesse
agree with you on all points, you’ve just written it more clearly
@Vote down the facts
also my point, there are a heck of a lot of sheeple who haven’t noticed the change in tone of the MSM.
@anonymous
our income and debt load has decreased considerably in the last 6-9mths, we are currently looking at upgrading to a much nicer rental, instead of purchasing (thanks chmc!)
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June 28th, 2012 at 1:24 pm 73
@starbucker: from the cknw article: “40 of the calls last year were for humanitarian distress – which includes distraught people jumping from bridges…”
Confucius says: ‘man who leap from bridge, jump to conclusion’
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June 28th, 2012 at 1:56 pm 74
RIM will be trimming 5000 jobs in addition to previously announced 2000 layoffs. Bad news for Canadian economy. Do they have any office in Vancouver?
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2012/06/28/rim-earnings.html
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June 28th, 2012 at 2:40 pm 75
patriotz,
My commute from Kits to Richmond disagrees with your assessment people are commuting out to the burbs for good jobs. My commute is light traffic, while the other direction heading downtown is bumper-to-bumper.
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June 28th, 2012 at 2:59 pm 76
@taylor192: “My commute from Kits to Richmond disagrees with your assessment people are commuting out to the burbs for good jobs.”
and science disagrees with you.
“there was more commuting from Vancouver to Richmond than there was from Richmond to Vancouver”
http://vannstruth.com/2012/06/richmond-commuting/
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June 28th, 2012 at 3:09 pm 77
@starbucker: Well, 2006 science anyways….
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June 28th, 2012 at 3:09 pm 78
new inventory graph:
http://vancouverpeak.com/groups/inventory-graph/forum/topic/inventory-graph/?topic_page=2&num=15#post-2484
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June 28th, 2012 at 3:15 pm 79
@starbucker:
Thanks for that link. I also notice traffic is pretty heavy on both sides of the Knight st. Bridge, but it’s generally heavier coming into Vancouver than otherwise.
I think what that study is missing is that there are people coming into Vancouver who are coming *through* Richmond, from Delta, Surrey etc.
Anecdotally, I also commute from Vancouver to Surrey for work, and the traffic is always heavier coming to Vancouver than going out (in the mornings).
The only reason we live in Vancouver at all is because my wife works at UBC, which is a nightmare to commute to, if you live anywhere but Vancouver.
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June 28th, 2012 at 3:21 pm 80
@b5baxter: Just wondering if you’ve updated the chart showing that Vancouver price crash compared to other areas? You know the one where you put in the 10% drop because it looked good? The one where you and all the other innumerate bears gave me grief for pointing out that you shouldn’t mix and match metrics and choose the one you liked the best? How’s that chart look now with the updated numbers?
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June 28th, 2012 at 3:22 pm 81
New Listings 249
Back On Market Listings 11
Price Changes 200
Sold Listings 75
AS OF 3:25PM
Cross your fingers for a sub 100 sales day
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June 28th, 2012 at 3:29 pm 82
@HFHC: Larry has said, don’t wait too long to buy, keep your eye on price changes. When they dip below sold listings, you’ll know the market has changed back in favour of sellers. Looks like that’s not happening today.
And other things that well-known realtors have said on the blogosphere that irritate me are, courtesy or Rob Chipman’s blog:
Sell/List
The sell/list is a simple measure of demand that divides a given number of sales by the number of new listings taken during the same period. It is expressed as a percentage. In a hot market we sell more properties than we list, so the number exceeds 100%. Markets like that commonly see multiple offers over list price. Slow markets, on the other hand, are characterized by low sell/lists, below 35%.
He’s added this explanation once 45%-55% daily S/L ratios became common. It seems to me to be kind of a hedge to suggest that what we’re currently seeing is a balanced market. Thoughts?
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June 28th, 2012 at 3:31 pm 83
@HFHC: Wow, look at the Price Changes, almost as much as the new listings! Pop!
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June 28th, 2012 at 3:37 pm 84
New Mortgage Rules Make Buying Hard
….SO DO HIGH PRICES!!
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June 28th, 2012 at 3:55 pm 85
@mac: “Larry has said, don’t wait too long to buy”
Perhaps that $8.5m listing he’s had for a while now is starting to make him nervous. What would the potential commission on that be?
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June 28th, 2012 at 4:03 pm 86
@VanRant:
“Wow, look at the Price Changes, almost as much as the new listings! Pop!”
Almost the same as this time 2 years ago..
http://vancouvercondo.info/2010/06/river-green-sells-out.html
Boombust Says: Reply to this comment
June 21st, 2010 at 6:30 pm
“New Listings 222
Price Changes 200
Sold Listings 85″
Told ya.
Current score: 39
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June 28th, 2012 at 4:22 pm 87
@Troll:
I am working on a new one that compares Vancouver with a specific city in the US instead of the whole country which as others pointed out is probably a better way to do it.
It should be ready for the June Teranet numbers.
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June 28th, 2012 at 4:28 pm 88
@taylor192:
“My commute from Kits to Richmond disagrees with your assessment people are commuting out to the burbs for good jobs.”
Actually it confirms it. I simply said that a lot of people from CoV commute to work in the suburbs. I didn’t say that more people commute out from CoV than in, today.
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June 28th, 2012 at 4:35 pm 89
@patriotz:
“Actually it confirms it. I simply said that a lot of people from CoV commute to work in the suburbs. I didn’t say that more people commute out from CoV than in, today.”
His point was that everybody else was moving in the opposite direction to him.
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June 28th, 2012 at 4:53 pm 90
@Troll: “The one where you and all the other innumerate bears gave me grief for pointing out that you shouldn’t mix and match metrics and choose the one you liked the best?”
Sounds like this new “999″ metric. Honestly, what’s wrong with using the median?
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June 28th, 2012 at 4:57 pm 91
I don’t know about you, but in Vancouver in times like these I am sure glad to be renting. No financial stress, no maintenance, no unexpected expenses, no 800k mortgage on a 999k home that will be soon worth $700k, no leaky condo, no need to sell the house when I get sick of the rain.
Can you imagine investing 200k in a home and ending up 100k under water?
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June 28th, 2012 at 5:47 pm 92
900kCrackHouse: Word.
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June 28th, 2012 at 5:49 pm 93
@900kCrackHouse:
“Can you imagine investing 200k in a home and ending up 100k under water?”
Actually you invested 999K, which is the reason why you can end up underwater. The mortgage lender invested 799K in you.
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June 28th, 2012 at 6:00 pm 94
New Listings 308
Back On Market Listings 18
Price Changes 251
Sold Listings 82
As of 5:57pm
I’m not sure at what time of the night they stop posting this info but I think we might be done for the day. We will wait and see if PaulB numbers are the same.
I’m waiting to see an under 75 sales day. After July 9th we might.
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June 28th, 2012 at 6:03 pm 95
Only 8 homes sold for 1 mil or more. Also I would say roughly 85% of these sales are from the fraser valley and Tri cities. Not much moving elsewhere. That said it is only one day of data.
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June 28th, 2012 at 6:07 pm 96
New Listings 247
Price Changes 164
Sold Listings 49
TI:19553
http://www.laurenandpaul.ca
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June 28th, 2012 at 6:14 pm 97
@paulb:
Until today, I never thought I could literally smell fear in a list of numbers.
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June 28th, 2012 at 6:17 pm 98
@HFHC:
HFHC, thanks for your midday updates! Just wondering do your stats also cover Fraser Valley?
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June 28th, 2012 at 6:18 pm 99
I guess PaulB has less areas in his selection. My numbers are for the lower mainland up until abbostsford. Maybe I should stop posting the numbers so they don’t conflict with PaulB. Sorry for the confusion.
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June 28th, 2012 at 6:20 pm 100
@HFHC
Please keep posting.
Thank you for the updates!
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June 28th, 2012 at 6:21 pm 101
@HFHC:
Please don’t stop, all stats are welcome
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June 28th, 2012 at 6:23 pm 102
The chances of hitting 2500 sales this month just took a savage beating.
June might be another 10 year low.
Large price drops begin in July.
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June 28th, 2012 at 6:47 pm 103
Another nail in Vancouver’s real estate coffin…
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/media/releases/2012/2012-06-28.asp
“Effective July 1st, 2012, Citizenship and Immigration Canada will place a temporary pause on new applications to the Federal Skilled Worker Program (FSWP) and federal Immigrant Investor Program (IIP).”
And to think all my friends in the Communist Party of China had all their suitcases full of cash ready to buy up Vancouver real estate…
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June 28th, 2012 at 6:54 pm 104
@Bo Xilai: “Another nail in Vancouver’s real estate coffin…”
The Skilled Worker changes won’t have an effect for 12-18 months, due to the time it takes to process applications.
Your own link says: ‘“This temporary pause on new Federal Skilled Worker applications will allow us to set the program on a new course as we intend to launch revised selection criteria soon,” said Minister Kenney. “The pause has no impact on the number of workers Canada admits into the country, as CIC continues to process applications already received. Current immigration remains at historically high levels.”’
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June 28th, 2012 at 6:57 pm 105
@Bo Xilai:
Too bad about the skilled worker program. Like all immigration programs it had its flaws, but at least it had its heart in the right place. Recent layoffs at Radical Entertainment aside, most of the people I know in the local tech community are having a tough time attracting skilled engineers to work in Vancouver.
On the other hand, good riddance to the investor immigrant program. I don’t hear too many complaints about a lack of billionaire sweatshop owners coming to the city – except maybe a few west side realtors and house flippers. I will shed a tear for them.
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June 28th, 2012 at 6:58 pm 106
49 sales today. nice.
10-yr low sales activity ratios.
pushing 20K inventory & 10 MOI marks.
Record high leverage & valuation ratios.
tightening mortgage rules & hard stop in new CMHC lending
I hope SamanthaD is still enjoying her patio wine. Bless her heart. She’ll be needing a lot more booze in the coming years.
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June 28th, 2012 at 6:58 pm 107
@Bo Xilai:
Since the launch of Canada’s Economic Action Plan 2012, Minister Kenney has announced a series of changes to CIC’s economic immigration programs. They include:
changing business immigration programs to target more active investment in Canadian growth companies and more innovative entrepreneurs
That’s right communist party officials, simply laundering your bribe/extortion money in Vancouver real estate simply won’t cut it anymore.
You’re now going to have start businesses and create jobs and all that nasty stuff that involves hard work and intelligence.
Still interested?
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June 28th, 2012 at 7:00 pm 108
While I appreciate deeply the fact that sales have hit the wall, I don’t like how prices continue to do the Wile-E Coyote thingy… then all the market fluffers do is talk to prices. Wonder if the benchmark will actually make some downward progress – if so they’ll have to come up with a new measure – tracking the rate of acceleration of price declines or some obscure shit that helps the market fluffers keep the market “pumped up” between “shoots”… http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluffer.
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June 28th, 2012 at 7:00 pm 109
Yeah, we might get under 2500 sales–but remember there were a few days early in June when PaulB was unable to post. I used Larry’s numbers for those days. In any case, the final official numbers will be slightly different–but not too far off.
Inventory will drop by 500 to 1000 on July 1st because of delistings so don’t get ants in your pants when that happens.
Looks like it will be *very* close to 2008 sales levels. Need to be under 75 (or so) to be worse than 2008.
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June 28th, 2012 at 7:04 pm 110
@VHB: That should read:
Inventory as of June 28, 2012
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June 28th, 2012 at 7:07 pm 111
@HFHC: Hi HFHC! Please continue posting. We’ll know that your numbers are for the whole of the Lower Mainland and not the Vancouver and inner suburbs only (as Paul’s are). More, in this case, is definitely care. Your work is much appreciated!
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June 28th, 2012 at 7:32 pm 112
I will keep posting the stats and they will continue to be the whole lower mainland up to and including abbotsford. I would like to contribute more during the day if time permits at work. Maybe I could break it down by SFH, townhouse and condo. Let me know if you guys have some ideas. As long as I have access to the mlxchange I will post
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June 28th, 2012 at 7:57 pm 113
@oneangryslav2: Jeebus! I should proofread my posts before clicking submit!
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June 28th, 2012 at 8:32 pm 114
@HFHC Please keep posting, and if you have time to break it down as well will be great. Thanks.
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June 28th, 2012 at 9:25 pm 115
I think the biggest change to immigration is the language requirement. I’m hearing some Irish accents around Vancouver these days. I’m sure Mr. Kenney is pleased.
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June 28th, 2012 at 10:14 pm 116
@paulb:
paulb’s stats corroborated by Larry’s numbers a bit later:
Vancouver All Areas*
New Listings – 247
Back On Market Listings – 4
Price Changes – 161
Sold Listings – 48
*Attached & Detached – Date: 2012/06/28 Time: 21:34
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June 28th, 2012 at 10:20 pm 117
There’s lots of media attention recently around the improving US housing market. The front page of the NYT today was the latest to declare the recovery was at hand. I agree there’s now a good case for owning over renting in many places in the US, but do not underestimate their shadow inventory.
“The problem is that the Banks had voluntarily stopped their foreclosures while negotiating the robo-signing settlement. They are now poised to flood the market with foreclosed homes. Their distressed sales are likely to pressure prices.”
http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2012/06/looming-foreclosures-house-price-obstacle/
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June 28th, 2012 at 10:20 pm 118
I have to agree on the difficulty in attracting good, well skilled, engineers or technicians here… our company is looking to hire at least 3-4 people right now (pneumatics, electronic, electrical, PLC… that kind of stuff) and wages just are not enough to entice anyone to Vancouver… everyone we’ve interviewed so far says “hey I need at least $X to get the same thing I already have”… and no company here that I know of can afford to pay $X. Tough spot for companies in Vancouver.
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June 28th, 2012 at 10:31 pm 119
20k party by Aug 15?
Today’s sales numbers were absolutely brutal. A s/l of 20% in June?
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June 28th, 2012 at 10:42 pm 120
@BurbsBoy: Damn right ! Do I really have to move to Calgary to make more than $65 k a year ? I’m kind of settled here.
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June 28th, 2012 at 11:35 pm 121
Immigration changes passed today include tossing out / paying out all present economic class immigrant applications through the federally administered programs: Federal Skilled worker Program and Immigrant Investor Program. There were about 80,000 of them ALONE. Also the PNP and those programs increase language level requirements from CLB3 to CLB4. Wow that’s a lot of people No new Immigrant Investors for six months, no Federal Skilled Workers – THEN they open up for new applications January 2013. Those don’t process overnight. That sure slows things down for a long long time. Hmmm..
Also huge clamp down on new refugees – stricter management of the detention centres and deportations. “Nobody is held captive – they can leave the detention centre any time they want – to go back to their country.” Part of me loves it, part of me hates it, part of me hates me for loving it because it’s also a cruel way to treat people in need. Immigration’s not a black and white science.
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June 28th, 2012 at 11:39 pm 122
@midnite toker: “Do I really have to move to Calgary to make more than $65 k a year ?”
Er, no.
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June 29th, 2012 at 4:34 pm 123
[...] forum is calling on ‘sellers to unite’ to prevent further price drops. (hat tip to VMD on Vancouver Condo Info). “A brand new house in good area of West Richmond, 8111 Dalemore Rd, [...]
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June 29th, 2012 at 7:45 pm 124
@HFHC: Are you a realtor? Will you make yourself known? I’m sure some of us would like to show our gratitude by making a purchase through you when we come out of hibernation. (Not me, though; I already told paulb I’ll be in touch)
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June 30th, 2012 at 5:37 pm 125
If that 20K party/get together is going to happen…I would suggest the Admiral Pub in N. Burnaby. Central enough.
Be sure to wear you “moniker” name tag!
I hope the partaaaay goes ahead SOONER, rather than later. Te he!
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September 6th, 2012 at 12:01 am 126
[...] but there isn’t much looking up in the outlook. We’re now a couple of months into the new mortgage rules that have taken out some first time buyers and put pressure on $1 million [...]
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