Canada plans to stop selling citizenship

The federal government has announced that they are closing the immigrant investor program.

So how does this wash out with Vancouver HAM-hype?

If prices crash now does that mean that all the salespeople that used ‘foreign money’ instead of ‘in debt locals’ as a justification for high prices were correct?

A source said the government is acting based on data that show that, 20 years after arriving in Canada, an immigrant investor has paid about $200,000 less in taxes than a newcomer who came in under the federal skilled worker program, and almost $100,000 less than one who was a live-in caregiver.

In the past 28 years, more than 130,000 people have come to Canada under the investor program, including applicants and their families.

And what about those ‘in debt locals’?

Turkey shared some interesting numbers on the sheer size of Canadian debt growth:

Let’s start with non-mortgage debt:

Equifax said Monday that its figures show that consumer debt, excluding mortgages, rose to $518.3-billion through the end of November 2013. That was up 4.2 per cent from $497.4-billion a year earlier.

Up 20 billion dollars in a year; the total is 520 billion. That works out to about $15k per Canadian man, woman, and child.

Meanwhile, overall consumer debt, including mortgages, also continues to rise — up 9.1 per cent to $1.422-trillion from $1.303-trillion a year earlier.

Up 120 billion dollars in a year; the total is 1.42 billion. That’s about $41k per Canadian man, woman, and child.

Now the editorializing bit.

High debt levels are not a big concern in current conditions, which signal a stabilizing economy, improvement in the unemployment rate and an anticipated gradual increase in interest rates.

An increase in debt, by itself and without context, is not a troubling sign in an improving economy. It’s the friggin’ size of the thing that’s a catastrophe! These numbers are absurd. Plus, BC’s numbers have traditionally been worse.

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las vegas mini implants
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las vegas mini implants

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VMD
Member

Ozzie Jurock speaks
Federal axing of immigrant investor program to limit foreign real-estate ownership

“Vancouver real estate consultant Ozzie Jurock, former president of the Canada-Taiwan Trade Association, was not surprised by Flaherty’s decision to kill the program. Jurock believes it is just the first shoe to drop in a federal move to curb foreign speculation in Canadian real estate. “This is the first shot,” Jurock said, “The second will be some sort of tax on foreign real estate investment, or outright ban or restrictions on foreign investment like in Australia.””

cris
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cris

Yes, Pianos only housed in Chinese-owned homes.

Ludwig van Beethoven is Chinese too.

Yunak
Guest
Yunak

@um, yeah

this comment tells me that you haven’t looked at many houses and are talking out of your ass. here is an example of incurable ugly:

http://beta.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?PropertyId=13935799

Can someone please explain why every house either a mansion or a craphole staged to target Chinese buyer must have piano or pianino at least, or even both like this monstrosity above. Are they all some musicians and rock stars by default so instrument must be in like toilet or sink?

Melba
Guest
Melba

…More good news: “Craigslist rentals aid Surrey crackdown on illegal suites”…

Oh no! The God of Density may be offended!

patriotz
Member

@158: “Bringing the overall Canadian RE market in for a soft landing maybe part of the reason (by pulling down the Vancouver RE market).”

You can’t average things out like that. A bust in Vancouver combined with slowly rising nominal prices elsewhere does not produce the same number of defaults as flat nominal prices nationwide.

I really don’t think the elimination of investor immigration has anything to do with the RE market, the program sucks big time on its own merits and the Cons just decided that economically and politically it didn’t suit their agenda.

Aggregator
Guest
Aggregator

@Turkey @Many Franks

What I meant was CSIS using the term and identifying individuals as "corrupt". They're not going to say that directly, but…

Corrupt Chinese Officials Take $123 Billion Overseas

The higher ranking they were, the report says, the more likely they were to go to Western nations. Top destinations for high-level thieves included the U.S., Canada, Australia and the Netherlands.

Like seriously.. what other evidence do you want when the PBOC has already acknowledged the situation in its own report.

um, yeah
Guest
um, yeah
>The Vancouver Special crazy started in the 70s & 80s, way before any massive Chinese immigrants and they certainly weren’t designed by Chinese either. vancouver specials aren’t supposed to be nice. they are cheap shacks for working class families. they are supposed to be functional and nothing more. >Those paints, interior deco, etc can easily be change for low cost. this comment tells me that you haven’t looked at many houses and are talking out of your ass. here is an example of incurable ugly: http://beta.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?PropertyId=13935799 > I wouldn’t be surprised if the Chinese/Indian/Iranian/etc buyers think the exact same thing about the kind of houses you like – bad taste, aweful looking, stupid interior layout, etc, etc…. proportion, complimentary colors, symmetry are all universal human attributes. there is beautiful buildings all around the world, and humans appreciate them all universally.… Read more »
Aleksey
Guest
Aleksey

More good news: “Craigslist rentals aid Surrey crackdown on illegal suites”

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/craigslist-rentals-aid-surrey-crackdown-on-illegal-suites-1.2534965

I just wish all City Halls would start doing this.

David Lee
Guest
David Lee

@ Aggregator

Thanks for the CSIS angle: I wouldn’t have thought of it (that’s why these forums are great).

However, I believe that there are probably a few reasons behind pulling the plug on IIP. Bringing the overall Canadian RE market in for a soft landing maybe part of the reason (by pulling down the Vancouver RE market). Another part may be the influence on provincial and municipal politicians that CSIS warned about. Much like how RE agents may have partially brought this upon themselves, so may Gregor and Christy with their recent trips to China.

specialfx3000
Member
specialfx3000

For the 45,000 that have been in the queue for years, I would dare to guess some were so certain the ‘hold’ would be lifted they probably already have bought in Vancouver through channels such as family already here or holding entities. Even at 10%, we are looking at over 4000.

Now that the IIP is axed, surely some will just cash out and look south.

With Spring around the corner,watch for blooming of flowers and lots of mushrooms of ‘for sale signs’ especially in Van West.

patriotz
Member

@152: “The Vancouver Special crazy started in the 70s & 80s, way before any massive Chinese immigrants”

There was plenty of Chinese immigration then, mostly from HK. Not claiming they were the only buyers.

“and they certainly weren’t designed by Chinese either.”

Agreed. But what sets the current monstrosities apart from ye olde Vancouver Special is that the latter was designed to be as cheap as possible while maximizing living space. The ugliness (more a plainness by today’s standards) was an outcome of that economization.

Today’s monstrosities on the other hand are designed for maximum ostentation (ugliness in the eyes of this beholder) without any regard to cost. That’s the difference. They are designed for buyers who want expensive crap.

VMD
Member

Canada Axing IIP makes Vancouver Chinese newspaper frontpage/headline 2nd day in a row

Headline reads “RE experts: ‘Abolishing IIP will cause high-end RE to depreciate’ – Is Government trying to target flippers?”

space889
Member
space889

As for venture capital visa, I wouldn’t be surprised if most of the venture capital went into shell company whose sole existences is to allow immigrants qualify for program and withdraw money once they get PR. Basically it could be even worse than current program because the government wouldn’t even get the interest free loan while any benefits go to these shell company operators.

If they want to do it right, at least go with US route, proof you created 10 full time jobs. Even then it’s not perfect as I’ve been told that Korean grocery and/or restaurants always change owners whenever the current owner gets their green card.

Turkey
Guest
Turkey

@Aggregator,

What do you expect? CSIS to announce “We have corrupt foreign officials influencing provincial governments” lol That’s not going to happen.

Yeah, that would never happen. Wait: Some politicians under foreign sway: CSIS

Several members of B.C. municipal governments are also under suspicion, Richard Fadden, the director of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, told CBC News in an exclusive interview.

space889
Member
space889
@um, yeah – geez, you are like those buyers on HGTV that complains about kitchen cabinet colors and refuse to buy while the house has pretty much everything on your wish list. Those paints, interior deco, etc can easily be change for low cost. Also, how much time do you spend looking at your house exterior? Lastly, just who make you the sole authority on what is good and nice on architecture? I wouldn’t be surprised if the Chinese/Indian/Iranian/etc buyers think the exact same thing about the kind of houses you like – bad taste, aweful looking, stupid interior layout, etc, etc…. The Vancouver Special crazy started in the 70s & 80s, way before any massive Chinese immigrants and they certainly weren’t designed by Chinese either. I bet Indians will more than step up and buy them and then cram… Read more »
Many Franks
Member
Active Member

@Aggregator: “There words, not mine.” Sic. Those are your words, not CSIS’.

Aggregator
Guest
Aggregator

@Many Franks

What do you expect? CSIS to announce "We have corrupt foreign officials influencing provincial governments" lol That's not going to happen.

There is only anecdotal evidence, like this: Fugitive banker wanted by Iran for $3b swindle flees Canada

Or correlations, like this just in from Bloomberg: Canada leads U.S. in Bloomberg's 2014 ranking of Best Countries for Doing Business

Hong Kong #1 and Canada now #2. You tell me which way hot money is flowing.

patriotz
Member

@144: “the Government might be devaluing the dollar”

Canada does not have an administered exchange rate. The BoC targets CPI not exchange rate which is why the CAD/USD yo-yos as it does.

The CAD is down because the markets have assessed Canada’s economic prospects and decided that the CAD simply isn’t worth as much as the USD. It’s not reasonable to claim the BoC has directly caused this because their rates are simply tracking the Fed as before. Can you claim that the BoC had a role in the root causes – sure.

um, yeah
Guest
um, yeah

have you guys seen the kind of houses asians like to buy? they are really ugly. hideous. if iip buyers are taken out of the equation, who is going to step up and buy these pieces of crap?

white, indian, iranian buyers are not going to step up and live in these nightmares. no one is going to buy a new house just to demolish it. and sellers won’t want to sell them for land value. to them, it doesn’t make sense because they probably think they are nice looking.

they are going to be white elephants that simply sit there.

so i’m not sure if iip changes will impact the market.

the damage has been done. vancouver housing stock has been blighted by a large number of aesthetically challenged.

http://www.uglychinesecanadian.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/4459565214_130d8ef01e.jpg

http://uglyhousephotos.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/090813j.jpg

Many Franks
Member
Active Member

@Aggregator: Thanks, but I didn’t spot anything there about immigration or corrupt foreign officials. You can make that connection yourself, but you can’t attribute it to CSIS as far as I can see.

Aggregator
Guest
Aggregator
@Many Franks CSIS warns of foreign takeover risks in annual report Some politicians under foreign sway: CSIS "There are several municipal politicians in British Columbia and in at least two provinces there are ministers of the Crown who we think are under at least the general influence of a foreign government…" Fadden warned that foreign regimes — through universities and social clubs — will develop a relationship with people who have a connection to the homeland. "You invite somebody back to the homeland. You pay [for] their trips and all of a sudden you discover that when an event is occurring that is of particular interest to country "X," you call up and you ask the person to take a particular view," Fadden said. Security issues are top priorities for the federal government. They must have found a few more… Read more »
Heard Herd selling
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Heard Herd selling

Here’s what will happen to lower end homes, ie teardowns, no buyers for new builds, no buyers for teardowns, it’s that simply, for Lorne Goldman to think otherwise means he must be scared

Bailing in BC
Member

patriotz #140

Call me crazy but the first thing that popped into my head when I read your comment was the idea that the Government might be devaluing the dollar to reduce an expected pay out to foreign holders of mortgage securities.

What do you think? Or should I just crawl back into my bunker and pull my tin foil hat down firmly over my ears?

emmi
Guest
emmi

“High debt levels are not a big concern in current conditions,”

Shortest term thinking ever. These guys don’t give a rat’s ass about anything more than a quarter out.