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Realtors waiting to see impact of foreign buyer tax

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There are more anecdotes of a market slowdown caused by the new foreign buyer tax in Vancouver.  This latest batch from the North Shore News:

Local real estate agents say they know of several multi-million-dollar real estate deals collapsing and predict the hot North Shore housing market will cool slightly in the wake of a new 15-per cent provincial tax on property purchased by foreign buyers.

“It’s one of the most shocking events that’s ever arrived in our industry,” said Brent Eilers, a longtime West Vancouver Realtor with Re/Max. “Nobody really knows how it will unfold.”

Eilers said the new foreign buyers’ tax is bound to have an impact, particularly in markets like West Vancouver and North Vancouver, which have been “incredibly dependent on offshore money or new money” that’s come from sales to foreign buyers in other areas of the Lower Mainland.

Read the full article here. So far it looks like sales are dropping and listings rising over the last few months. According to zolo, the average sales price in Vancouver has dropped by a few hundred thousand dollars since March.

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Its_the_ALR_stupid

https://www.biv.com/article/2016/8/blue-collar-immigrants-take-hit-tax-realtors/

“Philipp said the new tax also dampens the incentive for skilled out-of-country workers to settle in the region.”

What a load of garbage. The reason it’s hard to attract skilled workers is because RE prices are too high. Plus if these are legitimate immigrants then they are not subject to the tax anyway. I can’t believe this passes for journalism.

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Oracle

@BPOM

You said only 2 detached houses sold yesterday ??

Out of a total of around 100 sales?

Can you post this info daily? If no detached sells in Vancouver, locals can’t buy further out with their windfall.

Then the market will be purely driven by foreign money coming in.

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bullwhip29

at the end of the day, it is usually always about the money…
http://theartnewspaper.com/news/in-the-frame/coupland-goes-for-the-gold/

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bullwhip29

FYI..int’l fugitive Michael Mo Yeung Ching appears to have finally broken ground on Intl Trade Center project in Richmond.

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bullwhip29

IMHO the next 6-12 months will be very interesting for christy clark and co. i do not believe the 15% tax is here to stay in its existing form. in the not too distant future speculation will again ramp up in advance of one or a combination of the following which i believe is likely to occur: – govt will lower tax rate on some/all properties and perhaps give certain categories of developments an exemption (but will be sure to inform rennie et al weeks in advance); i see some form of tweeking/tailoring of tax the most likely outcome but any/all options on table if liberals win the next election in a landslide – govt will be forced to roll back entire tax scheme due to violation of nafta (but will be sure to inform rennie et al weeks in… Read more »

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Kim

I didn’t know nafta applied to Chinese people.

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bullwhip29

it doesnt smart ass. if tax is deemed unlawful as per nafta then it will be eliminated across the board. that way krusty would get her cake and be allowed to eat it all herself. you actually think the govt will give US and mexico exemption but still charge chinese a 15% head tax?

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HAMster

This tax does not violate any NAFTA agreements. Plus if Trump wins, NAFTA will be toast anyways.

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Kim

Yes I do. But it doesn’t matter. These are all last straws. The government can just have a vacant house tax or a property tax increase.

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bullwhip29

vacant house tax will be very difficult to implement and a property tax hike would apply to who specifically? at the end of the day, where are the proceeds of the current foreign tax going anyway? right back to the developers largely.

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Oracle

MSP has direct access to see your income from CRA when they charge you for MSP premiums.

The banks and CMHC don’t want this access.

Makes you go hmmmmmm.

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donald t

You will be sorry if anks have direct access to your tax return. What next? Starbucks?

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bullwhip29

Foreign real estate buyers interested in sinking money into B.C. but less interested in paying the province’s new 15% foreign buyers tax in Metro Vancouver have several options…

https://www.biv.com/article/2016/8/editorial-bc-farmland-speculation-consternation/

>>> so, are we about to see a continuation of the run on farmland, which will ultimately be rezoned residential at some point in the future (just like all of richmond was). unless the govt tells HAM that has already setup roots here to leave, selective measures to slow the market down will not stop the flow of money in the long run. the 15% tax does nothing more than divert water flowing downstream to other tributaries.

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Oracle

Check the Surrey mansions out on ALR on 152 and 48 th avenue.

15,000 square feet +. 3. Units for 3 brothers families and a 3000 sq ft common area for entertaining guests that come over. 4000 sq ft for each brothers family.

These things classify as sfd while housing multiple families.

Crazy rush for 5-10 acre parcels going on in he valley right now.

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Combat roach

“She said she felt entrapped by the government when it announced the tax.

“In my mind, Canada is a democratic and fair country.”

Now she is not so sure.”

Now, fuck off to China and enjoy fairness and democracy.

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OPENHOUSEMASSACRE

How many family members and relatives who couldn’t buy a home in their own city that they born ,raised and have there roots. where was the democratic and fair when people have leave town because of asshole Chinese buy our property and were been left behind.

Fuck U Jing Li bitch u don’t need to own a home u can rent .

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bullwhip29

plenty of buyers (and sellers) lost a few days of sleep but managed to change closing dates to sidestep the tax. there wasnt (and couldnt have been) much notice but it is amazing what one can accomplish in a week when money is involved

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Kim

It sickens me that our tax dollars go to fund the CBC which is basicallya (federal) liberal mouthpiece. They want to further their aim of letting in as many Chinese mainlanders as possible to destroy this country. Say goodbye to clean air, as they drive their luxury SUVs. Say goodbye to gay and transgender rights as they protest inclusion in our schools and institutions. Say hello to corruption at all levels as we have seen in this real estate “market”. Is this the Canada you want?

This woman has no right to purchase a home here. I say good, lose your downpayment. I’m sure it’s “borrowed” or should I say embezzled by your parents anyway. Disgusting.

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bullwhip29

agreed. dont give a $^&@ what this suposed future govt employee says. i betcha her car is worth more than the dp and that her parents are not a broke as she claims.

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Oracle

Lower mainland will be Asian majority within 15 years. Get used to the corruption and other things.

There is a growing backlash against this unfettered immigration. Otherwise your kids will be targets of Chinese racism in the coming years.

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Oracle

And note that no one now needs PR to live in Canada.

All a foreigner person has to do is visit Mexico twice a year on vacation and they can live here forever.

That is what she was doing.

That’s why there is going to be tremendous pressure on rents going forward.

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Kim

Our governments have sold us out. All of them, staring with the dictator at the top Trudeau.

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HAMster

She is part of the problem but she can’t see that.

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patriotz

Ottawa eyes higher risk for lenders

Higher risk means higher rates.

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patriotz

Vancouver going ahead with affordable-housing developments

Faced with an almost constant drumbeat of anxiety from local residents about rent and real estate costs, Vancouver is moving ahead with affordable-housing developments on four city-owned sites even before provincial or federal help is guaranteed.

“We need the housing desperately here in the city,” Mayor Gregor Robertson said on Monday, as he announced that the city has selected builders and architects for four of 20 sites the city hopes to use for subsidized or lower-cost rental housing.

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squeak

I think it would be more helpful if they instead (which they should have done a long time ago) give grants to people that are not home owners in Vancouver/surrounds to move out BC for relocation expenses and help set up a home in another province. That would be more caring and helpful for young talented bright Canadians. I will give this band aid a fail, not enough and far too late. The kids of these families that are to live in these “housing projects” will not be able to stay in Vancouver anyways when they grow up (housing still out of reach) and probably not able to attend higher education ( no money b/c of high housing costs). “four of 20 sites the city hopes to use for subsidized or lower-cost rental housing” : Lousy. Who wants to live… Read more »

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space889

Look at what happens when you stop obsessing over housing and the poor me, why so unfair, poor me attitude:

How a 30-something couple got rich and retired by not joining home ownership ‘cult’

https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/30-something-couple-got-rich-090000502.html

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OPENHOUSEMASSACRE

The couple decided to nix the house hunt. Instead, they enlisted the help of well-known Toronto financial adviser Garth Turner and invested their $500,000.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/house-investment-wealth-1.3716641

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Kim

I only bought because the wife wanted to. Even then, our mortgage is much smaller than we can afford. We also have over 1.2 million in stocks (and over a million equity in the house but I assume this will drop soon). Not difficult to do when you buy dividend increasing stocks and re invest the dividends. I’ve only been working and saving since 2008. Especially with the loonie diving 30%. S and P went from a low of about 600 to almost 2200 today, not including exchange rate. Not difficult to double your money even if you didn’t buy at the bottom, and factoring in dividends and exchange rates. Reading the comments, people are so gullible and stupid. Its like North Korea and how people are brainwashed to believe in realtors. And Market drops are an opportunity, I made… Read more »

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Kim

And as an example of how I doubled my money quickly with one stock, take a look at Pfizer. Back in the spring, the US government were investigating all drug companies for drug pricing concerns. Stock dropped to 28 bucks. It’s underlying business model is safe though (we all will need drugs as as we age and the dumb Chines eWill keep wanting to drive their luxury cars, causing more diabetes etc). I had 5k cash and 3k in dividends. Boight 8k worth. It’s now about 36 bucks a share which I believe reflects its true market value. So my stake is worth over 10k when I really only put up 5 k of my own money. No leveraging, just compounding at work. Of course, it can also drop but I still have that rising 3.5% dividend to count on

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Bear Vancouverite

@Kim, Just a few weeks ago you said you had over $1M in stocks and $1M in home equity, and now you have $1.2M in stocks, I take that to mean you had between ~$1.05 in stocks. Regardless of how easy it is for you I think few other investors in your age group are capable of such gains of 15% in a matter of weeks and I would caution others from assuming they can reproduce your success. Your story is also a bit of a cherry pick to illustrate how strong stocks are versus housing. We’re in an extended bull market since 2008 and many people have made gains in excess of 100% if they started in 2008. If instead you were investing since 2003 and held your stocks through the crash your total capital gains would look more… Read more »

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kim

I hadn’t calculated how much I had in my portfolio since the market lows of the year which was about 1 million, which I just re-did a few days ago, and my portfolio did increase that much. Stocks dropped 14% to start the year, and they’ve recovered and more, although some of my oil stocks still have not completely recovered. Key is balance. Yes, we should not cherry pick but my point is, people who argue that RE goes up forever DO cherry pick as well. For me, I’ve been investing since the late 90s when I got my first union job at 19. I’ve been through the ups and the downs. I’m not advocating to pick stocks. Most people aren’t like me who spend a lot of time reading and researching stocks. But my point is, buy the index,… Read more »

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bullwhip29

you idiot, this is a paid ad just like 90% of the so called news articles posted on sites like yahoo and business insider.

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Best place on meth

Only 2 houses sold in Vancouver today.

The one on the east side (actual sale date Aug 10) sold for 9% below ask, the one on the west side (actual sale date July 24) 10% below ask.

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Newcomer

Amen. (Do you mind if I ask where you got the info?)

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YVR

So much for sticky prices.

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yvr2zrh

Given the fact we will have very few units trickling in in the coming 2-3 months – I would ask if someone could post daily some comments such as this to indicate sale price / sell date etc. The July 24 sale date is date of subject removal – and perhaps was one where they ended up re-negotiating the price after the tax came into effect. However – some comment on price and sale v. list price will be important.

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Hyper-mega-Bull

What a horrible July sales number. Only just above the 10 year average. The real estate agent hunger index must have ticked up lmao.

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Mortgageslave

“Prices will remain sticky as owners will be reluctant to lower prices.”

The problem with this theory is that there is always somebody that needs to sell and will lower their price to do so. As houses sell for below asking it starts a new top, and as sellers compete to get out before losing too much equity the undercutting continues. It’s already begun. That’s why you don’t see that loser Space here anymore. He’s already looking for a new line of work, poor guy to spendt all that time day after day posting mindless dribble just to realize you were giving all your friends advise that will eventually send them to bankruptcy. Poor bastard…

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Johnson

Wrong. People getting PR will snap the properties up. Plus people not going to sell as rents going to skyrocket with the people Trudeau going to let in.

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Boombust

Nonsense…and you should know it.

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YVR

Prices are already down 25%. Hope those PR arrive soon.

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Slava

Nice wishfull thinking coming from a realtor or “owner” with little equity and much to lose. If it helps you sleep better these days, then more power to you.

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Combat roach

What those people who will be let in going to do here to support those “skyrocketed” rents? Are they all going to be top surgeons and first tier movie stars or construction and Tim Hortons are going to do?

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HAMster

Johnson =Oracle?

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bullwhip29

HAM at the upper end of market doesnt have to sell. the whole point of exercise was to get all ill gotten money out of china and into canada where it will likely remain indefinitely

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paulb

New
276
Sold
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TI:9543

http://www.paulboenisch.com

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Adult Huggies

Going higher 🙂 wont matter how many “immigrants are coming”

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Adult Huggies

15 days to go in August will we see 10000? Thumbs up if you think yes.

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BubbleTea

At about 150+ listings a day, 11000 should be the goal!

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Boombust

Easy. Count on it.

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Its_the_ALR_stupid

Hard to say what’s going to happen to inventory going forward after the recent tax bomb. Received wisdom would predict a listings explosion as people freak out and list before the expected price declines. On the other hand I’ve witnessed several properties removed from the market recently because sellers figure they’ll wait out the turbulence and list when conditions are more favorable. Hard to say which mindset will win out.

On the other hand I’d put money on sales falling off a cliff, since the prevailing group-think meme is that you’d have to be crazy to buy a property in the lower mainland right now. So either way I predict rising sales/listing ratios (e.g. MOI), especially next spring if buyers are still spooked (and I think they will be). Time for popcorn time finally?

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Its_the_ALR_stupid

Oops – I meant to say I predict rising listings / sales (that is, higher MOI).

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Boombust

Welcome to the new meme.

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Kim

Prices will remain sticky as owners will be reluctant to lower prices. The catalyst for a crash will be when rates go up or when US raises rates and Canada does not follow leading to a plunge in the loonie. Btw the market was cooling before the tax. (High end properties in SF, NYC and London had been stagnant the last few months).

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MikeS

Plunge in the loonie helped fuel massive price hike earlier this year. Poloz doesn’t seem to mind.

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Boombust

I don’t believe that will be the case; there are a lot of “specuvestors” who are starting to poop their pants. They will be the first to list (dump) their MULTIPLE properties thus adding tremendous downward pressure on prices. You ain’t seen nothin’ yet…

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Kim

That will only be the case if speculators can’t afford the mortgage payments because they can’t rent it out or if rent can’t cover the costs of owning. I think there is still the mindset that prices can never fall.

I still can’t understand why anyone would buy investment condos. Transaction costs are too high and you are just purely speculating/assuming prices will go up forever.

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Boombust

Since WHEN have rents been ab;e to cover Co$t$?

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Boombust

…able…

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Kim

I don’t know, but I always hear people bragging about renters paying their mortgage. Why don’t you just buy a REIT and get 4-6% dividend and be cash flow positive right away. I’ve held SRU.UN (before Calloway) since the recession and it’s gone from 10 to about 36-37 bucks a share now.

Or better yet, Tyson foods, a great chicken company, from 4.20 cents at the bottom to 75 bucks a share with a dividend of 0.8% to top it off. There ARE another ways to invest, if you wouldn’t leverage to buy stocks, why in the hell would you leverage to buy investment real estate?

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Newcomer

That is the thing that makes this a spectacular bubble: rents don’t come anywhere near covering mortgages. An average 1.5 M east side house with a full mortgage would cost 7 K/month before taxes, etc. Even if you chop it up into three suites, you can’t get anywhere near 7 K. About half that is doing pretty good. And that’s for the cheap part of town. A townhouse in a halfway desirable part of town costs 2 M. Can you get 9K/month rent for a townhouse? Can you even get 4.5? But people don’t mind losing 4 or 5K a month when the price is going up by 10 or 20 K a month. They may feel differently when it is going down 10 or 20 K a month.

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Kim

Not arguing with you there. I know high school friends, cousins, etc who have bought into this madness, going into the RE investment business with their folks providing a lot of the capital. It’s all going to hell soon.

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YVR

Lots of properties that are land value only that generate nothing or close to nothing in revenue after property taxes. New builds that have not started are dead and these properties will be selling for 50 cents on the dollar within months. Banks will be calling in loans on these.

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patriotz

“if rent can’t cover the costs of owning”

That’s the definition of a speculator.

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YVR

Too many over leveraged speculators for prices to remain sticky in Vancouver. This is not a normal correction.

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patriotz

“Prices will remain sticky as owners will be reluctant to lower prices. ”

Owners are always reluctant to lower prices. Prices fall when buyers are no longer willing to pay as much. Somebody always has to sell. Buyers are in control of prices, all the time.

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bullwhip29

why would a crash in the loonie lead to lower RE prices? you have this backwards.

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franko

” US and China armies are planning for war….. ”

O shit! How we gonna prevent Trump for mistaking YVR for China?

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BubbleTea

He’s got a Trump Tower ™ in Vancouver, he’s not going to bomb Vancouver.

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Madashell

Holy Cow! Just notice an ad on this site by RBC and the whole ad is in Chinese with only the product line in English. Time to close my RBC account.

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HAMster

Also seen full on Chinese ads on the backs of buses. Also bus ads for “Suncom” all in Chinese. Isn’t that the RE company of that Chinese crook that was in the news awhile ago? IMO not appropriate for TransLink to allow/promote all Chinese language ads on public property.

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patriotz

Translink has contracted out advertising rights to this firm and I doubt under the contract they would be able to restrict advertising in this way.

http://www.lamar.com/BCCanada

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CanNeverThinkOfAGoodName

I agree. Every word must be translated or else the ads should be in English alone.

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CanNeverThinkOfAGoodName

They’re not really interested in your business, apparently. The message they are conveying is that you and any other nonChinese speaker don’t really count.

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wwww

mandarin is fast becoming a job requirement in the banking industry for new hires.

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bullwhip29

in richmond you could say this for any service related job. employers have to walk a fine line, but would be idiots to not hire mandarin/cantonese speaking employees since practically all clientele is chinese. business is business…

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Diadora

So what the hell is Baby Trudeau doing? Vancouver is in the middle of a housing crisis where the inhabitants can not buy or rent in the city because of Chinese HAMs. Retail stores are closing because of Sky-high rent and lack of customers. Unemployment rate is high and its tough for the locals to get into University and meanwhile Justin just open wide the door for Mainland China. And in one of the headline- “US and China armies are planning for war which could plunge world into chaos”. I am so sorry I voted for the Liberals in the last election.

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Combat roach

I hope he wakes up, takes a cold shower and amends the whole miscalculation and nonsense with China as the key ally. If not, he will go down in history as a leader who failed Canadians and toppled Canada forever.

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CanNeverThinkOfAGoodName

It’s a new problem, a different kind of problem from what we’ve seen before in history. Globalisation has got real, and people for the most part don’t see the problem. They think gung ho let’s be progressive, let’s be open to any enterprise at all, it’s all good. They don’t get that we need to keep the integrity of nation state, in order to have democracy and human rights. That means that some arbitrary upper middle class or 1%er or pt 1%er from some arbitraary country DOES not have the same rights as people who live here and have some form of commitment to here as a citizen or tax resident or long time physical resident with more going on than attempts to exploit the system for personal gain. I wish someone would go tutor some of these politicians. Sorry… Read more »

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patriotz

Christy is attempting to take control of the housing issue, and the provincial election next spring will be fought largely on the basis of whether the BC Libs or NDP have the best answers.

Now given this, and given that the next federal election is 3 1/2 years away and anything could happen to the market over that time, why would any PM want to stick his nose in it now? If you want results, volunteer with your local NDP constituency, instead of sitting at your computer complaining.

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david

He’s too busy casting himself as an accomplished boxer/former bouncer on 60 Minutes. “Look at my pecs! The world is in love with me almost as much as I am!”

Congrats all…you got the king you so craved.

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southseacompany

“Are Vancouver housing prices headed for a fall?”, BC Business

http://www.bcbusiness.ca/real-estate/are-vancouver-housing-prices-headed-for-a-fall

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Rocker Guy

10%… by the end of 2018. Sure…

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Newcomer

Yeah. I love that!

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Madashell

Hey didn’t Vancouver drop more than that in the last month!

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Boombust

I guess such a paltry amount is meant so as not to spook the masses.

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southseacompany

“Vancouver ‘largely responsible’ for national drop in home sales”, CBC News
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/crea-price-sales-1.3721141

“But in Greater Vancouver, monthly sales have plunged 21.5 per cent from their peak in February, the real estate group’s report notes.

“The real eyecatcher is the fact that mighty Vancouver has been largely responsible for the recent cooling, with seasonally-adjusted sales now falling in five straight months, albeit from gaudy record levels at the turn of the year,” said BMO senior economist Robert Kavcic in a commentary.”

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Madashell

Only thing Krusty had done right was implement the Tax fast before her RE friends cry foul!
Realtors estimate that 3,000-4,000 deals are in limbo, as they had not closed before the tax came into effect Aug. 2.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/real-estate-tax-new-15-metro-vancouver-foreign-buyers-1.3703987

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squeak

“Realtors estimate that 3,000-4,000 deals are in limbo”

1/ Oh boohoo
2/ I don’t trust anything that comes out of the mouth of a realtor, I believe anything they say is in pure self interest therefore not a trust worthy source.
3/ Deals in limbo. Excuse me? You are worrying about deals “in limbo”. You should worry about the thousands of lives that are limbo b/c of an out of control housing market.

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Kim

They won’t be able to make the lease payment on their BMW and Mercs.

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Slava

They are “salesman” trash who need to filtered out, brought down to earth so they then can train for a real career, that might benefit Canada, instead of destroying it.

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Slava

Who gives a sh#t about the problems of these whiners and glorified used car salesmen needing only a highs school drop out education level to practice their “real estate career”.
They are basically parasites, reduced to sucking the mainland Chinese Money teat, or its full stop.

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Madashell

What took you (CRA) so long?
While transactions in the Greater Toronto Area have so far been the subject of greater scrutiny, including audits, the CRA has recently been actively monitoring and auditing real estate transactions in British Columbia.
http://business.financialpost.com/personal-finance/taxes/how-the-cra-cracks-down-on-non-compliance-in-hot-housing-markets

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franko

What took them so long?

They’ve been too busy trying to squeeze the last nickel out of us poor Canadian suckers to fund their campaign to bring in more opportunists from China.

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Best place on meth

” Flipping is also done by individual renovators who buy real estate, renovate it, and then live in it for a short time before selling so they can claim the principal residence exemption several times in their lifetimes.”

This is another issue that needs to be addressed – limit the tax exemption to once every 10 years.

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bullwhip29

good luck forcing to people to stay in their homes for that long

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franko

The exploits of Jack Li is just another indication that nobody in Ottawa really gives a rat’s ass about the extent that the foreign workers program is being abused. The program requires the visa of a foreign worker to end when employment (in the oil fields) is terminated.
Meanwhile, the Federal Liberals in in China right now, trying to lure more opportunists to our country.

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boomingbust

Why can’t people on this blog also vent to your MLA, MP and the PMO. It’s not that difficult, but remember to keep the email formal. You can find examples on goog.
There are great observations and arguments that can inform the clueless politicians that need your support for their next py check. Write them, many times and don’t forget to mail them a few hard copies too if they report you as spam.

Our premier krusty is spam. So give it to her!

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Combat roach

How far the ignorance and insolence will go? They treat this country like a general hooker that everyone can take advantage off and satisfy their needs. I can’t believe I am reading this shit. Those people are sick and we yet keep piling them up here. Instead of attracting immigrants who are true professionals Canada let the worst crap to get in and yet they complain, like this shitbag who couldn’t fulfill his dream of becoming a realtor. Mesmerizing… “Three years ago, Jack Li signed to buy a modest one-bedroom condo in Richmond for about $200,000, a chance to gain a relatively cheap foothold in British Columbia’s Lower Mainland. Then he waited as his new home slowly emerged from the ground. But far more exciting than construction progress was the rapid rise in the value of his purchase as real… Read more »

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Boombust

Greedy prick.

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Best place on meth

The next piece of legislation should be to ban foreigners from owning more than 1 property here.

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franko

Allow foreigners to own one property???
You’re mellowing BPOM.
Say it ain’t so!

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Best place on meth

Demanding an outright ban on foreign ownership would be impossible to achieve given the stance of the provincial and federal governments and the power and influence the real estate industry has over the BC Libs.

That said, we should still be demanding further measures to make the real estate market even more hostile towards money-laundering kleptocrats as well as domestic speculators.

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Combat roach

“He was so sold on the Vancouver region he became a licensed real estate agent in the province.”

How this foreign fuck became licensed real estate agent? On a tourist visa, some special status, how else he comes in if he isn’t qualified??? Holy shit how bad is this. It totally ruined my day.

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kim

Either this story is made up or there’s some seriously shady shit going on in this town. Seriously, nothing surprises me anymore. Remember, this was the city that had the Vancouver Stock Exchange. Looks like all the stock promoter/pump and dump types have just become realtors. I’d be embarrassed to call myself a realtor.

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CanNeverThinkOfAGoodName

It’s disturbing as can be. On the positive side: the commenters on the news story also see it as wrong and disturbing.

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