Vancouver Condo Info

It looks like all is not going according to plan in Surrey’s efforts to turn Whalley, a neighbourhood known for its crack dealers and methamphetamine users, into a new Yaletown.  There was the massive fire that destroyed phase 2 of the Quattro development and then there was last weeks story about money trouble at Infinity, the largest housing project ever built in Surrey.

Surrey Mayor Diane Watts and Quattro developments principle Charan Sethi held a meeting with buyers this weekend to update them on the current situation.  The uncertainly and delays in completing these large projects comes at a time when house and condo prices are declining adding more stress to buyers, some of whom are trying to get out of their presales contracts.

But Sethi disappointed buyers who hoped the development company would buy units back from investors who wanted out. He said that wasn’t an option.  And he was unable to provide buyers with a solid timeline on move-in dates.

“We are desperate. We are homeless,” said buyer Carol Lobo, in an emotional confrontation with Sethi. “When can we move in?”

“Trust me,” said a smiling Sethi. “Give us another 10 days and we’ll have a better idea.”  The answer wasn’t good enough for Lobo, who came to the meeting with her two-and-a-half-year-old daughter. “We don’t have anywhere to go.”

Lobo was looking for other answers as well. “What about damage from the water, will the condo be toxic? What about another fire, and security?”

Concerns about further delays or cancellation of these project is being dismissed by the developer and financial backers.

Greg Sprung, senior vice-president and regional general manager for Canadian Western Bank, reiterated the bank’s commitment to work with the developer. “We’ve been with the project from the beginning and we intend to stay with it until the end.”

However when The Vancouver Sun asked what might happen if future buyers lose confidence in the development, or in the face of continued declines in the real estate market, he was less reassuring.

“That’s something we would have to deal with at the time. We approve phase by phase. Projects do get put on hold due to market slowdowns. I don’t know anyone that would build something for which there is no demand.”

Here’s an open question for discussion and a bit of a scientific experiment.  I noticed a recent story on the UBC election stock market and that reminded me of a few other stories I’ve seen on prediction markets and their accuracy.  It turns out that in many cases the aggregate of a groups prediction or estimation is more accurate than individual experts, particularly when money is at stake.

Last month we saw year-over-year price loss in many areas of the lower mainland.  These drops were seen across all types of housing: condos, townhouses and detached homes, but the most dramatic price drop was seen in Port Moody which saw an astounding year over year price decline of 20.4% for the benchmark price of a detached house.  That number is so large, I initially thought this may be a typo or error, but it has remained in place throughout numerous news stories and the original REBGV housing price index table.

So lets do a little experiment.  Lets see if the readers of this site, as a group, can accurately predict which area of the REBGV will see the largest percentage decline in the benchmark price of a detached home.  To clarify: Which area of the lower mainland will show the largest monthly house price decline during the month of October 2008?  Vote below and when October REBGV benchmark stats are release we’ll see how accurate we’ve been:

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The CIBC economic forecasting dartboard hasn’t been remarkably accurate lately, so I’m not sure how to take this most recent prediction from Benjamin Tal who believes ‘a gradual slide’ over the next 8 to 10 months will see house prices across Canada drop another 5 or 10 percent.

Sales activity will also drop by an average of about 20 per cent from current levels before stabilizing near the end of 2009, Mr. Tal, senior economist at CIBC World Markets Inc., said in an interview after his speech Tuesday before an income fund industry conference.

By this time next year the market will level off as conditions in the Canadian economy stabilize, he said. However Canadians shouldn’t be waiting for a “V-shaped recovery,” at that point, but instead should expect both home prices and sales to remain relatively flat, he added.

“What we are saying is that prices will continue to ease in the coming months, but there will be no U.S.-style freefall,” Mr. Tal said.

Canada should be in buyers’ market territory by late 2008 or early 2009 for the first time since 2001, he added.

Of course that’s the prediction for all of Canada - in western cities like Vancouver, Mr. Tal says that prices are likely to fall double digits by the end of 2009… So I guess thats anywhere between 10% and 99%?  Thanks CIBC!

On a Monday morning where the TSX started off the day with a fresh 1200 point plummet we’ve got more negativity about the local real estate market on the front page of the Vancouver Sun: I bought a house at exactly the wrong time.

And the chances of Vancouver prices actually dropping? Maybe two out of 10, I surmised. (Most of my friends, who at dinner parties often talked about how their soaring real estate was ensuring their retirement, thought I was slightly crazy to even think such a thing.)

As you might have guessed, my resolve had finally weakened. So, in the spring of 2007, I bought a piece of paradise. The odds seemed on my side, I decided. At first the prices seemed to keep soaring.

Soon I was telling people at dinner parties how much my house had gone up, too.

Now I’m back to where I started.

The real-estate-disaster bloggers actually were prescient. Wall Street is melting down because of the junk mortgages. Bay Street is in a tailspin. Now my almost daily question is what’s going to happen here?

Yep, the bloom has come off the rose when stories like this are on the front page.  Although we still have a huge problem with affordability, Vancouver house prices have dropped below where they were one year ago. sales have dropped right off and listings continue to grow as the global economic forecast gets dimmer and dimmer.  For many there’s still time to make out with a profit, but the competition is growing fiercer as we race for the bottom.

“I wouldn’t feel bad about buying,” said Jock, listening to me fret. “Nobody saw this coming. We’re in a hurricane, but in a hurricane you don’t know how bad it is until it’s over. And it’s not over.”

Nobody saw this coming and nobody could have predicted that the experts would say ‘nobody saw this coming’ right?  I bet you also couldn’t guess what Bob Rennie has to say about the whole Vancouver housing market crash:

Rennie also believes the fundamental reality is there’s no oversupply of housing and condos in the city of Vancouver, as there is in many U.S. cities now seeing the market tank. He also sees a strong demand for Vancouver’s high-end real estate by rich people from afar.

“I wouldn’t sell right now,” Rennie said. “In fact, I just bought a few more units myself.”

I’ll be back in a short while, I’m just going to go ask a car dealer if its a good time to buy an SUV.

exx just posted this link, looks like its worth its own post.  The Vancouver sun is reporting that the house price drop in September was big enough to bring us below 2007 levels in most markets across the Lower Mainland.  Prices in Greater Vancouver have dropped 5.8% since May and are now 1.6% lower than September 2007.

The year-over-year price changes vary by market from up 3.6 per cent in Richmond where the benchmark was $$754,481 to down 20.4 per cent in Port Moody where the benchmark was $619,891 in September.

Total sales of all property types recorded through the Multiple Listing Service were 1,585 across the REBGV area in September, down 43 per cent from September a year ago.

REBGV September new listings, meanwhile, were up 29 per cent to 6,142 from the same month a year ago.

“After five years of unprecedented increases, housing prices are beginning to realign,” Dave Watt, REBGV president, said in a news release.

Any thoughts or comments on this news?

Recently we posted an updated spreadsheet compiled by YLTNboomerang that tracks downtown waterfront townhouse listings and price changes (here’s the original post).  Monterey just wrote in that he’s doing the same thing for downtown westend condos listed under $650k and he’s made that data available to all of us here in this excel spreadsheet.

-click here to download the xls document-

Here’s Monterey’s comments on this data:

First, I want to thank fellow blogger YLTNBoomerang who inspired me to create this list.  I live in the west end, and am interested in a two bedroom apartment.  I don’t want to buy something and spend the rest of my life paying it off, so I have been looking at price ranges that I would consider affordable.  $500K tops, plus a little cushion to follow the imminent downward trend, and my upper monitoring range is $650K.

(more…)

Surreyjoe posted a link to this article in the Vancouver Sun about incentives designed to lure condo buyers.  The article covers a number of projects in the lower mainland that are using a variety of incentives to try to get units sold:

Bosa said the summer was also a slow period for sales, and “we figured we would do a bit of an advertising blitz” to spark more interest, which has worked to drive more traffic to its sales centre.

Developer Ledingham McAllister is offering different incentives on a couple of its projects — a $10,000 decorating allowance on units in its Silhouette project and five-per-cent cash back on September sales in its Perspectives building near Lougheed Town Centre.

Ledingham McAllister president Ward McAllister said incentives are offered during slow sales to encourage buyers “to get off the fence” so the company can meet its sales targets, but he hasn’t seen more than minimal discounting.

“I don’t think there’s much discounting going on in the market at all,” McAllister said. “People are thinking that prices are going to come down, and we don’t believe they are.”

It may or may not be true that theres ‘not much discounting going on’, but there certainly are a lot less sales happening.  Perhaps I’m missing something here, but aren’t incentives just an attempt at hiding price drops?  If you throw in a “$10,000 decorating allowance” or a “free honda fit” isn’t that just a price drop of that amount?

Thats according to UBC Sauder School of Business professor Tsur Somerville.  Its not just the Vancouver housing market that’s taking a dive - all across Canada things are slowing down, listings are high and many markets are seeing price drops.  Calgary and Vancouver have seen some of the largest price drops, but Toronto also saw a 1 percent price drop in August for the first time in ten years.

“The boom in the housing markets is definitely over,” Tsur Somerville, a professor in the Sauder School of Business at University of British Columbia said in an interview. “Depending on where you live, you can likely expect prices to fall further.”

Somerville, in a study released this month, looking at the relationship between house price and rents estimates that housing prices in some Canadian cities such as Regina, Winnipeg, Ottawa and Montreal, would have to drop as much as 20 per cent to be in balance. The professor found only Toronto and Edmonton house prices were not overvalued in the first half of 2008.

Put another way, average Vancouver house prices would have to fall by $85,000, in Winnipeg it would be $74,000 and Ottawa $81,000.

Just because homes are overpriced doesn’t mean the market will plunge to equilibrium, Tsur said.

Toronto housing prices are not out of line because they have not had the explosive growth of other cities, Sommerville said. “Some cities look way out of line when you run the numbers, but Toronto is bang on.”

Sommerville cautioned that the study was based on existing detached home prices and rents and did not include condo stocks.

I wonder what that study would show if you included data from the price/rent ratio of condo stocks.. We do have quite a few condos in this fair city of ours, with thousands more currently under construction.

At the end of July we posted an excel spreadsheet that YLTNBoomerang is using to track the market for Downtown waterfront Vancouver townhouses.  YLTN just sent in the updated data so I’m posting it here for anyone interested in this part of the market.  There are a few empty spots in this update as summer is vacation time.

The information in this spreadsheet includes square footages, new listings and price changes from January 10 until September 15th 2008 (today).  The entire database is color-coded, with red indicating price increases and green indicating drops.  There have been a few increases since the original posting, and a flurry of price drops over the weekend.

Click here to download the XLS document.

I’m posting this data with the same challenge as the original post: If you can graph this data in an interesting and informative way I’ll post it here, just email it to me.

update: bcubbins has added selling price data from land titles to this spreadsheet and posted it here.  Most of it seems to be going for 5 to 10% less than listing price, the shocker is a unit at 1280 Richards that went for 32.8% less than listing price.  Is that correct bcubbins?

Wow. What a weekend in the financial markets!  Lehman Brothers has filed for chapter 11 bankruptcy, an emergency trading session was opened on Sunday, Bank of America is said to have struck a deal to buy Merrill Lynch, and AIG is looking at ‘options’ for business capital.

Phew.  That all came out of left field eh? I mean no one could have predicted that excesses in credit markets would lead to problems like this right?  That would be a feat worthy of a soothsayer, like predicting that overvalued housing markets would fall.

Fortunately for us local experts like Helmut Pastrick of the CUCBC predict that our housing market will be going up by 10 percent.. er, no.. sorry thats changed to dropping by 10%, maybe more.

Anybody have some Gravol?